Biblical and historical reasons why Mitt Romney is not a Christian

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11-09-2011, 05:21 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

but we understand it is only the "text" that is revelation and not opinion.

What does this mean?
11-09-2011, 05:21 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, Billyray, are you still going to avoid the question, do you believe that Jesus Christ is not really the Son of God

Jesus is the Son and the Father is the Father.
11-09-2011, 05:26 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jesus is the Son and the Father is the Father.

How so? Is Jesus Christ begotten of the Father or not?
11-09-2011, 05:27 PM
dberrie2000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jesus is the Son and the Father is the Father.

But the question--is Jesus Christ the begotten Son of God the Father--Mary being the mother, and God the Father being the Father?
11-09-2011, 05:27 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

What does this mean?

It means that the prophet leads the church and therefore, his opinion has more weight. That said, even a prophet realizes that all of his utterances are not prophetic and will gladly acknowledge at times that they are wrong. Just read the D&C and see how many times Joseph Smith is told to repent.
11-09-2011, 05:29 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

That said, even a prophet realizes that all of his utterances are not prophetic and will gladly acknowledge at times that they are wrong.

So did brigham young acknowledge that his quote was not true?
11-09-2011, 05:32 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

So did brigham young acknowledge that his quote was not true?

The point is that Brigham Young never put his stamp of approval on the Journal of Discourses, nor did the other prophets and apostles. If they had, the Journal of Discourses would have been cannonized as scripture. That is a point that seems to keep going over your head--not sure why.
11-09-2011, 05:34 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The point is that Brigham Young never put his stamp of approval on the Journal of Discourses, nor did the other prophets and apostles.

“The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.“ (President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8.)"

http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/
11-09-2011, 05:38 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

“The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.“ (President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8.)"

http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/

Straight out of the Journal of Discourses which is not cannonized. Had this "deserved" been a standard works, it would have been one.

As noted, this seems to be the whole argument evangelicals have against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints---a set of books that the church does not consider scripture. As much as you want to make it such Billyray, it is not.

So, Billyray, seeing as we have hundreds of pages of scripture to look at---why not qualify your criticisms of my beliefs using what you absolutely know I take as revelation? Hundreds of pages Billyray, surely you can find something from them to critique us on.
11-09-2011, 05:50 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Straight out of the Journal of Discourses which is not cannonized. Had this "deserved" been a standard works, it would have been one.

President George Q. Cannon was wrong on this one as well?
11-09-2011, 05:54 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Straight out of the Journal of Discourses which is not cannonized. Had this "deserved" been a standard works, it would have been one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sometimes proclaim that the LDS believe that God had sex with Mary, resulting in the conception of Jesus. This is simply not true. While some members of the Church may have speculated concerning the conception of Jesus, the Church has never had a teaching concerning this event. This can easily be seen in a letter written by President Harold B. Lee to a brother in Logan, Utah. The letter is reproduced below. An edited version is also quoted in The Teachings of Harold B. Lee (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1996), 14.

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Did_God_...with_Mary.html

Would you say that the above quote is simply opinion?
11-09-2011, 05:56 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

President George Q. Cannon was wrong on this one as well?

Billyray---why not keep using the Journal of Discourses to attack the church. (Or better yet, attack the opinions about the opinions as above?) As certainly, there is nothing in our revelations in which to attack? Hundreds of pages of scriptures and yet you continue to continue going to sources that are not scriptures. It tells me just how weak your arguments are. It is like going to cliff notes and thinking you understand the whole book. :p
11-09-2011, 05:58 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Billyray---why not keep using the Journal of Discourses to attack the church.

Because within its pages shows the false teachings of your leaders. You should wake up to this fact but my guess is that you are fast asleep.
11-09-2011, 06:01 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

Because within its pages shows the false teachings of your leaders. You should wake up to this fact but my guess is that you are fast asleep.

No, being a member of the church for many, many years, I clearly understand that my beliefs are not decided by discussion had by older prophets, but rather revelation given in scriptures. All the discussion is just that, discussion.

But clearly, Billyray, as you do not look to attack our scriptures, I guess that means that you agree with them. Hundreds of pages of scripture and yet you go to the cliff notes. Okay.
11-09-2011, 06:01 PM
dberrie2000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

“The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.“ (President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8.)"

http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/

Billyray--please know this one thing--the Journal of Discourses is not LDS scripture.

I would venture to say not even half of the LDS have ever read a page from it.
11-09-2011, 06:05 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray--please know this one thing--the Journal of Discourses is not LDS scripture.

Why have modern day prophets if all you believe is that their words are simply opinions?
11-09-2011, 06:09 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why have modern day prophets if all you believe is that their words are simply opinions?

Because they lead the affairs of the church and when needed, God gives them revelation. Listen to the conference talks Billyray---what you will hear is the prophets using scripture to teach. When something is a "revelation", it will be cannonized.

If you think everything a prophet ever spoke should be scripture---where are all of your scriptures? Or do you think the prophets and apostles were completely silent other than what you have a "scripture"?
11-09-2011, 06:13 PM
dberrie2000

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Because they lead the affairs of the church and when needed, God gives them revelation. Listen to the conference talks Billyray---what you will hear is the prophets using scripture to teach. When something is a "revelation", it will be cannonized.

If you think everything a prophet ever spoke should be scripture---where are all of your scriptures? Or do you think the prophets and apostles were completely silent other than what you have a "scripture"?

That's a good point.
11-09-2011, 06:13 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

God gives them revelation.

What was the last revelation that your prophet received?
11-09-2011, 06:14 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

If you think everything a prophet ever spoke should be scripture

Give me all of the scripture that you have received from your last 2 prophets.
11-09-2011, 06:15 PM
dberrie2000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why have modern day prophets if all you believe is that their words are simply opinions?

Cite, please. Could you cite that? Where do you find my opinion as the voice of prophets being just another opinion? Some of their words are opinion, but the LDS do not view the words of prophets as just another opinion.
11-09-2011, 06:17 PM
BigJulie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

Give me all of the scripture that you have received from your last 2 prophets.

Why not from all the last prophets---it is called, The Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, and the D&C.

Like I said Billyray--hundreds of pages. Dig through them and see what criticisms you have. If not---then your arguments are just fluff.
11-09-2011, 06:19 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Why not from all the last prophets---it is called, The Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, and the D&C.

Is there any scripture from the last two prophets?
11-09-2011, 06:26 PM
dberrie2000

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billyray

Is there any scripture from the last two prophets?

If one were to notice--most prophets reinforce and restore those scriptures that have already been given.
11-09-2011, 06:28 PM
Billyray

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If one were to notice--most prophets reinforce and restore those scriptures that have already been given.

Is that a no?

How about the last 3 prophets? Any scripture?

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