Is God unable to create in kind?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by MacG

I don't know from implications (perhaps you are used to looking for deficiencies where there are none)

---I don't know--I have been too busy finding deficiences where they DO exist, to get used to looking for what isn't there.
Of course, I am hardly the first to notice deficiencies in a few of the doctrines of "traditional" Christianity--Pastors Roger Williams, John Wesley, Sebastian Franck, et al noticed them way earlier.

but Figs question is can God reproduce God?

---Wouldn't you say that any being who is unable to reproduce is deficient? When inferior beings such as chimpanzees can have babies and teach those babies everything the parents know, and raise them to do everything the parents can do, how, logically thinking, could a DEITY be UNABLE to do similarly?

The point that you raise though is different in this subtle way - those that He imparts gifts of knowledge and healings and glory as in Moses shining face, and the glorified bodies of flesh and bone in the future to etc. are not God the imparter/source of such things and are destined to be the creation for ever.

---Let's take the issue a step at a time:

1. Is God able to have a child? Yes/No
If no, then God is deficient in at least one way.

2. If yes, is God able to impart to His children the ABILITIES and PERSONALITY TRAITS that He possesses (immortality, endless learning potential, wisdom, love, kindness, patience, etc.) ? Yes/No

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---I don't know--I have been too busy finding deficiences where they DO exist, to get used to looking for what isn't there.
Of course, I am hardly the first to notice deficiencies in a few of the doctrines of "traditional" Christianity--Pastors Roger Williams, John Wesley, Sebastian Franck, et al noticed them way earlier.


---Wouldn't you say that any being who is unable to reproduce is deficient? When inferior beings such as chimpanzees can have babies and teach those babies everything the parents know, and raise them to do everything the parents can do, how, logically thinking, could a DEITY be UNABLE to do similarly?


---Let's take the issue a step at a time:

1. Is God able to have a child? Yes/No
If no, then God is deficient in at least one way.

2. If yes, is God able to impart to His children the ABILITIES and PERSONALITY TRAITS that He possesses (immortality, endless learning potential, wisdom, love, kindness, patience, etc.) ? Yes/No

God clearly states (many times) that His children are "adopted" not pro-created. And I wouldn't at all presume that God is deficient in any way. But, He IS unique, as He also tells us many, many times in the Bible.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Libby

God clearly states (many times) that His children are "adopted" not pro-created. And I wouldn't at all presume that God is deficient in any way. But, He IS unique, as He also tells us many, many times in the Bible.

Actually we ARE created BY God in the beginning--as he says--in his image and likeness.

Then we may be born again through an adoption.

We are all unique, Libby.

When you bear children, you don't bear fully grown adults, or degreed lawyers or doctors. Children "become" as they progress.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Actually we ARE created BY God in the beginning--as he says--in his image and likeness.

Here is the LDS progression

Intelligence----->spirit child----->physical being------>exalted being


How did the LDS god create us according to LDS theology?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Billyray

How did the LDS god create us according to LDS theology?

----How did da Vinci create the Mona Lisa?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

----How did da Vinci create the Mona Lisa?

According to LDS thought we co-existed with God. If this is true then did God really create us?

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Libby

God clearly states (many times) that His children are "adopted" not pro-created.

---Let's see these "many" times where God CLEARLY stated that He is unable to have children except through adoption.

And I wouldn't at all presume that God is deficient in any way

---If you can do something good that He CAN'T, then "He is deficient" is the ONLY presumption available.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Let's see these "many" times where God CLEARLY stated that He is unable to have children except through adoption.


---If you can do something good that He CAN'T, then "He is deficient" is the ONLY presumption available.

That would mean that God created creatures that CAN do what He CANNOT do.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

That would mean that God created creatures that CAN do what He CANNOT do.

So when a scientist genetically modifies corn to create a new species but cannot bear corn ears himself, the scientist is lesser than the creation?

MacG

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by MacG

So when a scientist genetically modifies corn to create a new species but cannot bear corn ears himself, the scientist is lesser than the creation?

MacG

No, it just means the scientist can't beget out of kind. He might be able to create a new type of corn, that is actually steril, but he is not 'begetting' it. Nor would I say that God begets corn, as corn is not his kind.

My question was about begetting in kind.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

My question was about begetting in kind.

Oh. Perhaps you haven't seen this before:

IS 46:9 For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,

Ripped from Answers.com:
Like:
prep.

1. Possessing the characteristics of; resembling closely; similar to.

adj.

1. Possessing the same or almost the same characteristics; similar: on this and like occasions.
2. Alike: They are as like as two siblings.
3. Having equivalent value or quality. Usually used in negative sentences: There's nothing like a good night's sleep.

n.

1. One similar to or like another. Used with the: was subject to coughs, asthma, and the like.
2. Informal. An equivalent or similar person or thing; an equal or match. Often used in the plural: I've never seen the likes of this before. We'll never see his like again.

If He can, He hasn't and apparently does not intend to:

"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

MacG

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by MacG

Oh. Perhaps you haven't seen this before:

IS 46:9 For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,

I've read that before. It makes a good cross reference to Exodus 8:8-10 which says:

8 ¶ Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, Intreat the Lord, that he may take away the frogs from me, and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may do sacrifice unto the Lord.
9 And Moses said unto Pharaoh, Glory over me: when shall I intreat for thee, and for thy servants, and for thy people, to destroy the frogs from thee and thy houses, that they may remain in the river only?
10 And he said, To morrow. And he said, Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the Lord our God.

Plus these cross references.

In each of these cases, the context is either
1) That idols and gods of the heathen are not to be compared with the living God of Israel.

OR

2) That there is only One God and One Savior with which mankind has anything to do.

Both of these, I agree with.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

2) That there is only One God and One Savior with which mankind has anything to do.

This is superfluous because there is only One God - period. See:

IS 46:9 For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me..."

"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

Blessings,

MacG

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by MacG

This is superfluous because there is only One God - period. See:

IS 46:9 For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me..."

"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

Blessings,

MacG

In each of these cases, the context is either
1) That idols and gods of the heathen are not to be compared with the living God of Israel.

OR

2) That there is only One God and One Savior with which mankind has anything to do.

Both of these, I agree with.

Thanks.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

In each of these cases, the context is either
1) That idols and gods of the heathen are not to be compared with the living God of Israel.

It is more like there is no comparison because there are no other gods:

6"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
7'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;
Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
From the time that I established the ancient nation.
And let them declare to them the things that are coming
And the events that are going to take place.
8'Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And you are My witnesses
Is there any God besides Me,
Or is there any other Rock?
I know of none.'"

OR

2) That there is only One God and One Savior

This part is true.

with which mankind has anything to do.

This makes me think that you mean that there are more Gods like God (unlike the type of god listed below) and only one that matters to earthlings.

18They do not know, nor do they understand, for He has smeared over their eyes so that they cannot see and their hearts so that they cannot comprehend. No one recalls, nor is there knowledge or understanding to say, "I have burned half of it in the fire and also have baked bread over its coals I roast meat and eat it Then I make the rest of it into an abomination, I fall down before a block of wood!" He feeds on ashes; a deceived heart has turned him aside And he cannot deliver himself, nor say, "Is there not a lie in my right hand?"

Blessings,

MacG

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by MacG

It is more like there is no comparison because there are no other gods:

6"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
7'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;
Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
From the time that I established the ancient nation.
And let them declare to them the things that are coming
And the events that are going to take place.
8'Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And you are My witnesses
Is there any God besides Me,
Or is there any other Rock?
I know of none.'"

Again this is spoken in the context of pagan gods and idols.

True. We have not God but the God of Israel. This is not saying that there are no other gods in existence. But a declaration of WHO the God of Israel is.

Originally Posted by MacG

This makes me think that you mean that there are more Gods like God (unlike the type of god listed below) and only one that matters to earthlings.

God has revealed very little about worlds and heavens beyond what pertains to us directly. It is no wonder that so many people think that what lives upon this world is the extent of humanity throughout all of existence.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Again this is spoken in the context of pagan gods and idols.

True. We have not God but the God of Israel. This is not saying that there are no other gods in existence. But a declaration of WHO the God of Israel is.

Not just the God of Israel:
Rev7:9After these things I looked, and behold, a great mul***ude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever Amen."

But the God of all of the universe who created all things:

Rev:3:11"Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."

God has revealed very little about worlds and heavens beyond what pertains to us directly. It is no wonder that so many people think that what lives upon this world is the extent of humanity throughout all of existence.

Why do you suppose? When this one God with whom we have to deal says that there will be no Gods made either before Him or after Him it is best to believe Him. It is the same God that created Adam before there was an Israel and the same God of the mul***ude above - the Bible is truth for all.

Blessings,

MacG

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by MacG

Not just the God of Israel:
Rev7:9After these things I looked, and behold, a great mul***ude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever Amen."

But the God of all of the universe who created all things:

Rev:3:11"Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."



Why do you suppose? When this one God with whom we have to deal says that there will be no Gods made either before Him or after Him it is best to believe Him. It is the same God that created Adam before there was an Israel and the same God of the mul***ude above - the Bible is truth for all.

Blessings,

MacG

Again, the context is false gods and idol worship, and the source of our salvation. The only God that can bring man to salvation is the One True God. There are no others.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Again, the context is false gods and idol worship, and the source of our salvation. The only God that can bring man to salvation is the One True God. There are no others.

However there are others like Him - just not in this cluster of heavens that He created?

MacG

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by MacG

However there are others like Him - just not in this cluster of heavens that He created?

MacG

There are other gods, yes. Of course.

I suggest we both read this paper, and I will to, and then we can discuss the implications

http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cg...t=lts_fac_pubs

Thanks.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

There are other gods, yes. Of course.
http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cg...t=lts_fac_pubs

Thanks.

Just none like Him as he says:
1. Possessing the characteristics of; resembling closely; similar to.

1. In the typical manner of: It's not like you to take offense.
2. In the same way as: lived like royalty.
3. Inclined or disposed to: felt like running away.
4. As if the probability exists for: looks like a bad year for farmers.
5. Such as; for example: saved things like old newspapers and pieces of string.

adj.

1. Possessing the same or almost the same characteristics; similar: on this and like occasions.
2. Alike: They are as like as two siblings.
3. Having equivalent value or quality. Usually used in negative sentences: There's nothing like a good night's sleep.

n.

1. One similar to or like another. Used with the: was subject to coughs, asthma, and the like.
2. Informal. An equivalent or similar person or thing; an equal or match. Often used in the plural: I've never seen the likes of this before. We'll never see his like again.

So if there are no other Gods LIKE him, what are these other Gods like?

Grace and peace,

MacG

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Again, the context is false gods and idol worship, and the source of our salvation. The only God that can bring man to salvation is the One True God. There are no others.

Isaiah 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

Fig, you are saying that this is talking about "false gods" only? So the verse would read

. . .before me there was no (false) God formed, neither shall there be after me."

Do you believe that no false gods were formed after God? Does this make any sense to you at all?

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Isaiah 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

Fig, you are saying that this is talking about "false gods" only? So the verse would read

. . .before me there was no (false) God formed, neither shall there be after me."

Do you believe that no false gods were formed after God? Does this make any sense to you at all?

Billy what he is insisting on is context. The context is that God is only speaking ot the Israelites and there is only one God - for them and this creation and He is mute about other gods and other created heavens.

I suspect what might convince Fig is if the Bible said that "Not only do I know of no other Gods, I know of no others in yonder heavens either".
MacG

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by MacG

Billy what he is insisting on is context. The context is that God is only speaking ot the Israelites and there is only one God - for them and this creation and He is mute about other gods and other created heavens.

MacG

But that is not what the verse states and I know that Fig knows it. In the LDS theology there were gods formed before god the Father so this is a lie per their own thinking. Another point is that the God of the OT for LDS is Jehovah/Jesus not the Father. Look up LORD in the LDS Bible dictionary for clarification.

Isaiah 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith (Jesus), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am He: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

This makes no sense at all no matter how you slice it.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But that is not what the verse states and I know that Fig knows it. In the LDS theology there were gods formed before god the Father so this is a lie per their own thinking. Another point is that the God of the OT for LDS is Jehovah/Jesus not the Father. Look up LORD in the LDS Bible dictionary for clarification.

Isaiah 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith (Jesus), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am He: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

This makes no sense at all no matter how you slice it.

But for Fig the Father is not the God who can save therefore there is no other God.

Fig correct me if I am wrong about that.

I do not have the "luxury" to hold on to other "holy" books that imtimate that there are other Gods who can save just not in these heavens. So I am stuck with the Bible that was good enough for Jesus and led us to believe that there are no other true Gods period. At least the corrupt sects that JS was warned not to join had nothing to do with the Old Testament so it is safe and remains as pure as the Bible that Jesus read.

MacG