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Thread: Gay Marriage

  1. #126
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    gays burn....that's their fate....

    so sorry if that is upsetting for you...but that's what fate awaits them in the flame..
    It is not "upsetting" to me, because I know that it's not true.

  2. #127
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    The reason I believe it would lower the standard is because men and women are fundamentally different. (If not, there would be no reason to be gay in the first place.) Because they are fundamentally different, the standard is to have both a man and a woman raising a child (the highest standard is their own biological child). Think about it Libby--how is your mom and dad fundementally different. What makes your dad different than your mom? Which do you think a child should give up in this standard?
    I don't believe they are different enough to hinder a same-sex couple from raising a perfectly fine child. Studies and stats have born that out.

    Men and women are physically and even, somewhat, psychologically different, it's true, and I understand the "balance" you are looking at, but the qualities that make a good parent can exist, even in a balanced way, in a same sex coupling, as well.

    I saw some statistics, awhile back, that showed that single mothers had a lot of difficulties, in raising their children. A lot of school dropouts and delinquency. Strangely, though, single fathers did not have those kinds of problems and their kids were well within the average range. What researchers finally determined was that economic status was actually the important variable, and the differences had little or nothing to do with "gender". Women, usually, don't make as much money as men (even still), and therefore, they and their children had all of the problems of poverty...poor housing, poor schools, lack of supervision, etc.

    Anyway, bottom line, I think we are moving away from the idea that every family, to be ideal, must be the traditional one man/one woman model. We are finding that families of all kinds can nurture and provide for the needs of children. We need to recognize those "other" families as legitimate, as well.

  3. #128
    alanmolstad
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    The gays burn, toast, boil and bubble, every moment awake, every moment in torment...a world of suffering without end, without pause, without relief.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 03-14-2012 at 10:19 AM.

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I don't believe they are different enough to hinder a same-sex couple from raising a perfectly fine child. Studies and stats have born that out.

    Men and women are physically and even, somewhat, psychologically different, it's true, and I understand the "balance" you are looking at, but the qualities that make a good parent can exist, even in a balanced way, in a same sex coupling, as well.

    I saw some statistics, awhile back, that showed that single mothers had a lot of difficulties, in raising their children. A lot of school dropouts and delinquency. Strangely, though, single fathers did not have those kinds of problems and their kids were well within the average range. What researchers finally determined was that economic status was actually the important variable, and the differences had little or nothing to do with "gender". Women, usually, don't make as much money as men (even still), and therefore, they and their children had all of the problems of poverty...poor housing, poor schools, lack of supervision, etc.

    Anyway, bottom line, I think we are moving away from the idea that every family, to be ideal, must be the traditional one man/one woman model. We are finding that families of all kinds can nurture and provide for the needs of children. We need to recognize those "other" families as legitimate, as well.
    Actually, studies shows that SS raised children fair as well as children of divorced parents (with step-parents)---but as we know, children of divorced children do not do as well as children of intact, non-divorced parents. As I said, it is lowering our standards to think that children do not need a mother or a father.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  5. #130
    Libby
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Actually, studies shows that SS raised children fair as well as children of divorced parents (with step-parents)---but as we know, children of divorced children do not do as well as children of intact, non-divorced parents. As I said, it is lowering our standards to think that children do not need a mother or a father.
    Hmm, I've never seen that kind of comparison. The studies I've seen are comparisons between heterosexual and same sex couples who have children.

    In this paper, we provide an overview of variability across jurisdictions in family law relevant to lesbian and gay parents and their children, showing that some courts have been negatively disposed to these families. We summarize recent research findings suggesting that lesbian and gay parents are as likely as are heterosexual parents to provide home environments that support positive outcomes among children. Research findings suggest that unless and until the weight of evidence can be shown to have shifted, parental sexual orientation should be considered irrelevant to disputes involving child custody, visitation, foster care, and adoption.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...578.x/abstract

    I just picked that quickly off of google. The actual studies should be online, as well, but haven't taken the time to find them.

  6. #131
    Libby
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    Another...

    Between 1 million and 6 million children in the U.S. are being reared by committed lesbian or gay couples, she says. Children being raised by same-sex parents were either born to a heterosexual couple, adopted, or conceived through artificial insemination.

    "The vast consensus of all the studies shows that children of same-sex parents do as well as children whose parents are heterosexual in every way," she tells WebMD. "In some ways children of same-sex parents actually may have advantages over other family structures."
    http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/n...-adjusted-kids

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Hmm, I've never seen that kind of comparison. The studies I've seen are comparisons between heterosexual and same sex couples who have children.



    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...578.x/abstract

    I just picked that quickly off of google. The actual studies should be online, as well, but haven't taken the time to find them.
    Do you see the wording here---they provide similar enviroments. One of the biggest critiques of studies done regarding ****sexual unions is that they rely on the subjectivity of the couple--asking questions to the couple regarding the home. The study I read is actually a pro-gay marriage study and yet it still acknowledged that children of gay couples fair the same as children of divorces couples. I think the thing that no one is wiling to acknowledge is that in a gay marriage where children are involved, one parent is automatically taken out of the equation. The other thing that no study is willing to look at is the effects of a lack of mother or a lack of father from the child's point of view.

    I don't know if you remember years ago when single motherhood became so popular. Remember all the studies that stated that a single mother could parent as well without a father involved? Do you remember the whole Candice Bergmen contraversy? Well--here is an experiment that has been running for years. Many children are being parented without a father--they are being raised by their grandmothers and mothers. What are the stats regarding this now? That the role of a father is important not only to sons, but to daughters as well.

    So, I ask you which role is not important for the child? The mother or the father? While I understand that there are many homes missing one or each of these---is this the standard we want for creating a family?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  8. #133
    Libby
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    Not sure what "wording" you are referring to, Julie?

    Again, many social scientists find that economics has a much greater impact on children, than whether or not they have two parents (same sex or hetero).

    While most people agree that children are better off in families with two parents (as long as both parents are nonabusive), many believe that the adverse impact of single-parent families on children has been exaggerated. According to Sara S. McLanahan, a professor of sociology and public affairs at Princeton University, children who grow up with one parent are “disadvantaged across a broad array of outcomes”; they are more likely to drop out of school, commit crime, or become pregnant. However, she concludes, “the evidence . . . does not show that family disruption is the principal cause” of these problems. According to McLanahan, “If all children lived in two-parent families, teen motherhood and idleness would be less common, but the bulk of these problems would remain.”

    In addition, some social scientists and others argue that the causal connection between single-parent families and social problems is unclear. While most experts concede that children from single-parent families are more likely to experience problems such as poor school performance and poverty, many believe it is erroneous to automatically ***ume that these difficulties are caused by the absence of one parent. According to Arlene Skolnick, a research psychologist at the University of California at Berkeley, and Stacey Rosencranz, a graduate student at Stanford University, “Single parenthood may be correlated with many problems affecting children, but the causes may lie elsewhere—for example, in economic and emotional problems affecting parents that lead to difficulties raising children and greater chances of divorce.” Other commentators contend that for the large number of single-parent families who live in inner cities, a shortage of educational and employment opportunities is more likely to impact the quality of children’s lives than the number of parents they have.
    http://www.enotes.com/single-parent-families-article

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    Not sure what "wording" you are referring to, Julie?

    Again, many social scientists find that economics has a much greater impact on children, than whether or not they have two parents (same sex or hetero).



    http://www.enotes.com/single-parent-families-article
    This is what I read with your quote---in short, children of single parents fair worse overall, but we don't know if it is because they are raised by single parents.

    Sociologically speaking, they are trying to come up with other social solutions other than the family. If the lack of family is not at fault, but the failing of society, then the government can fix it (read into this, more social programs).
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  10. #135
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    Here is the quote you gave me:

    In this paper, we provide an overview of variability across jurisdictions in family law relevant to lesbian and gay parents and their children, showing that some courts have been negatively disposed to these families. We summarize recent research findings suggesting that lesbian and gay parents are as likely as are heterosexual parents to provide home environments that support positive outcomes among children. Research findings suggest that unless and until the weight of evidence can be shown to have shifted, parental sexual orientation should be considered irrelevant to disputes involving child custody, visitation, foster care, and adoption.
    Translation: there are no longitutal studies done yet for the outcomes of same-sex raised children so until then we can only use "environmental" factors---are they being fed, going to school, have someone doing homework with them, etc.?

    If you go back through history, you will find these same type of comments regarding divorce and single-parenthood. It took years before the longitutal data came out and what they now see is that there kids of divorce and single-parenthood do not fair as well. Now, I find it interesting that they are trying to even back away from the correlation of single-parenthood and increased problems for the child.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  11. #136
    Libby
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    I was gonna say...I don't think studies are really showing that it's about single parents or divorced families. As I said before, the evidence seems to point more towards economics than family dynamics.

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I was gonna say...I don't think studies are really showing that it's about single parents or divorced families. As I said before, the evidence seems to point more towards economics than family dynamics.
    The correlation would be that children from families with means are happy and well-socialized and that poor children are not happy and not well-socialized. From someone who has been studying economics, I say that these studies are just the result of a pro-social government giving grants to those who support the idea that more money thrown at a problem will solve the problems. As we can see from many, many failed social experiments, throwing money at the problem is not the answer. If you don't believe in God, then surely nature dictates what is best for a child (a mother and a father).
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  13. #138
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    Hey All,

    Out here in California we have Proposition 8 being that a yes vote will ammend the cons***ution to define marriage as being between a man and a woman.

    Do gay folks have a secular right to a state marriage vs a marriage "in the eyes of God" meaning the church?

    MacG

    I believe that the gays should be allowed to form legal unions that require the courts to split up.
    I believe the term "marriage" should be preserved for a union between man and woman.

  14. #139
    aaronpaul
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    Since God ins***uted marriage and authored it's definition, I believe the state should hold to His ruling......
    ****sexuals are free to breathe, eat, provide their shelter, defend their lives,
    and pursue happiness.
    But it is interminably clear that God has witheld from them not only holy matrimony, but indeed, the very act that defines them.

  15. #140
    asdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronpaul View Post
    Since God ins***uted marriage and authored it's definition, I believe the state should hold to His ruling......
    ****sexuals are free to breathe, eat, provide their shelter, defend their lives,
    and pursue happiness.
    But it is interminably clear that God has witheld from them not only holy matrimony, but indeed, the very act that defines them.
    It really shouldn't surprise me any more, but still sometimes it takes me aback that some Christians have so little faith in God and in God's work that they have to rely on civil law to validate their beliefs. It's not enough for you to do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly before your God—nor to live at peace with all men as far as it depends on you—nor even to exercise your freedom to refrain from engaging in or affirming same-sex relationships in your family and faith community.


    No, you demand the utter domination and supremacy of your worldview to be enshrined in and enforced by civil governance. You demand the authority to withhold equal justice under the law from those who don't believe as you do.


    When I step back and think about it, it's striking how anti-democratic, anti-republican, anti-the-very-idea-of-America it is, but also how anti-faith, anti-hope, anti-love, . . .indeed anti-Christ.

  16. #141
    alanmolstad
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    have faith in God's WORD.....and preach it with boldness when its needed...

    and in this age of liberal sins being so widely displayed, its needed!


    for God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!

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