Do you see "Salvation" as a "means" or an "end"

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Just curious how different people view the subject of "SALVATION" or "BEING SAVED"

Is it a means, or an end? Please explain either way.

Thanks.

[nrajeff]

It is an interesting question, Fig. I think it might be plausible to see it either way, or both. My first thought is that for me personally, being saved is more a means than an end because I want to be saved from the bad effects of sin and death so that I can become what God wants me to, and knows I have the potential to, become.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

It is an interesting question, Fig. I think it might be plausible to see it either way, or both. My first thought is that for me personally, being saved is more a means than an end because I want to be saved from the bad effects of sin and death so that I can become what God wants me to, and knows I have the potential to, become.

Thanks, Jeff.

I can see your point.

For me, viewing it from the present, Salvation is a destiny, and an end. But of course once arriving at an end, it then becomes a means to other ends beyond that.

The Gospel is the means.

[nrajeff]

Also a valid way of looking at it, IMO. As I said, it's an interesting question.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Also a valid way of looking at it, IMO. As I said, it's an interesting question.

Now that we have the LDS view on the means of salvation, just what is salvation?

Does it include the belief that Mormons become Gods themselves and create their own worlds?

Does it include the belief that Mormons will populate said worlds with their own offspring born of a celestial wife.... or more?

Scanned copy. Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Church Education System, Department of Seminaries and Ins***utes of Religion, Salt Lake City, Utah 1976, 1992, pg. 132. Full page here.

Eternal Progression is my favorite topic.

It is, in LDSism, the answer to the question, "What happens after I die?"

It is, in LDSism, "eternal life."

It is, in LDSism, "salvation."

[aaronshaf]

GREAT QUESTION, FBT!

I worked on the Theopedia article for "Salvation" and this is what we came up with:

Man's condition

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). Apart from Christ, we are "weak" and "ungodly" (Rom 5:6), "sinners" (Rom 5:8), under the coming "wrath of God" (Rom 5:9), "enemies" of God in need of "reconciliation" and salvation (Rom 5:10), under the "judgment" and reigning "death" that followed Adam's "one tresp***" (Rom 5:16-17), "enslaved to sin" (Rom 6:6, 16-17, 20), presenting our "members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness" (Rom 6:19), "of the flesh, sold under sin" (Rom 7:14), having "nothing good" dwelling in our flesh (Rom 7:18), having bodies "of death" in need of deliverance (Rom 7:24), "hostile to God" (Rom 8:7), the fruit and wages of which are death and condemnation (Rom 6:21, 23; 8:1).

Coming judgment

"It is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." (Hebrews 9:27) Apart from Christ, we are "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (Ephesians 2:3) Those with "hard and impenitent heart[s]... are storing up wrath for [themselves] on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed." (Romans 2:5) "[F]or those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil..." (2:8-9) "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

Initial salvation

Initial salvation refers to the event of a person's conversion. If you repent of your sin and turn in faith to Christ as Lord and Savior, your sins are immediately forgiven, your fight of faith has begun, and your future in Christ is secured forever. "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13) "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (***us 3:3-7)

Progressive salvation

Progressive salvation refers to the journey of a believer between conversion and death. It is the only path that leads to eternal life (Romans 6:20-23), and is walked by faith alone, in the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8, Galatians 3:2-5). It contains bumps and struggles and setbacks, but is marked by growth in love for others and for God. It involves a fight of faith, a striving for peace and holiness (Hebrews 12:14, 1 John 1:9), and a reoccurring approach of the throne of grace (Hebrews 4:16). "[O]ur Lord Jesus Christ... will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord." (1 Corinthians 1:7-9)

Final salvation

Final salvation refers to the event of God saving his people at the final judgment, the great divide between sheep and goats, wherein sheep are identified by their work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in the Lord Jesus Christ, and accepted on the ground of their union with Christ, the righteous subs***ute.

As you can see, we haven't really fleshed out the last category as much as we could yet.

[HickPreacher]

No doubt Salvation is an end, but powerfully a means.

I think the following refers to Salvation as a means-

Php 2:

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I view the above to be a teaching about how saved people are to put to work or apply the power of the salvation that they have already secured.

Because of p***ages like this-

1 John 4:

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

To me this means that the salvation given us comes with the gift of the spirit which comes with the power to do works and have power to do things.

Jesus spoke of this kind of empowerment in the Gospel of John-

John 14: 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


Getting Saved-- gives the Saved Power-- including power to do good works This is because of the indwelling of the Spirit in the believer.

1 Cor 1:

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Eph 2:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by HickPreacher

No doubt Salvation is an end, but powerfully a means.

I think the following refers to Salvation as a means-

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I view the above to be a teaching about how saved people are to put to work or apply the power of the salvation that they have already secured.

Interesting interpretation, thanks.

What do you make of 1 Peter 1:9 which says:
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

And 1 Thes 5:8-9
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Originally Posted by HickPreacher

Because of p***ages like this-

1 John 4:

To me this means that the salvation given us comes with the gift of the spirit which comes with the power to do works and have power to do things.

Jesus spoke of this kind of empowerment in the Gospel of John-

John 14: 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


Getting Saved-- gives the Saved Power-- including power to do good works This is because of the indwelling of the Spirit in the believer.

1 Cor 1:

Eph 2:

Thanks, again.

From my view, the power to do good works comes from faith in Christ. Not because of already having obtained salvation.

As I see it, the principle of Faith must precede obtaining salvation. And faith must be tested and tried preceding the obtaining of salvation.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Interesting interpretation, thanks.

From my view, the power to do good works comes from faith in Christ. Not because of already having obtained salvation.

As I see it, the principle of Faith must precede obtaining salvation. And faith must be tested and tried preceding the obtaining of salvation.

God must test faith, right? Why? Isn't He all knowing? Can't he read the hearts of all people? What is it then that Jesus says the Eternal Life is something a believer has? What about the Holy Spirit though the Apostle Paul teaching that Salvation is a matter of His grace though a faith, a faith God also provides? What of the Apostle John saying that he writes to those who believe in Jesus so we can know we have Eternal Life..

It must be that Eternal Life and saved mean something else to you that it does to a Christian.. What does mormonism say about these terms..

Is Salvation anything more than universal resurrection?

Isn't Eternal life Exaltation in Celestial Kingdom?

These terms are not even defined on lds.org in the Bible dictionary there..

I was taught as a young mormon that slavation espeially salvation by grace alone is nothing more than universal resurrection, and that Eternal Life is the kind of life God lives.. Yet here are these terms in the Bible. Eternal life being given through faith in Jesus, and Salvation a product of His grace.. Someone is changing the meaning of words to suite their own preverted doctrines.. Isn't that the way it appears? IHS jim

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Just curious how different people view the subject of "SALVATION" or "BEING SAVED"

Is it a means, or an end? Please explain either way.

Thanks.

Let me guess YOUR thoughts, figgie:

It's merely the beginning (Mormonism having re-defined "salvation" to mean "resurrection") 'cause everyone that has ever lived is "saved"...just a stepping stone to "exaltation", your imagined time of "godhood".

Correct?

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by James Banta

God must test faith, right? Why? Isn't He all knowing? Can't he read the hearts of all people?

It is not God's faith that is being tested. When our faith is tested we learn something about ourselves. As you point out God is all knowing; but we are not. When God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham has something to learn about Abraham, not God.

Marvin

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

It is not God's faith that is being tested. When our faith is tested we learn something about ourselves. As you point out God is all knowing; but we are not. When God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham has something to learn about Abraham, not God.

Marvin

Wow. It's rare that a Mo gets anything biblical RIGHT! Congrats.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

It is not God's faith that is being tested. When our faith is tested we learn something about ourselves. As you point out God is all knowing; but we are not. When God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham has something to learn about Abraham, not God.

Marvin

You misunderstood me... I see you saying that God need to test our faith so He will know how and if we will respond and follow Him..Is that right? Did God learn about Abraham when he obeyed God and bound Isaac to the alter and lifted the knife to kill him? What did God learn? How about ***? When God cleared Satan to test Him did God learn anything about ***? I really want to know these things.. IHS jim

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

It is not God's faith that is being tested. When our faith is tested we learn something about ourselves. As you point out God is all knowing; but we are not. When God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham has something to learn about Abraham, not God.

Marvin

Very well put, Marvin. I agree. The tests of life are for OUR sake. Not God's.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Very well put, Marvin. I agree. The tests of life are for OUR sake. Not God's.

And Fig, if God doesn't need to test us then why isn't salvation into His very best blessing in heaven guaranteed here and now? IHS jim

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You misunderstood me... I see you saying that God need to test our faith so He will know how and if we will respond and follow Him..Is that right? Did God learn about Abraham when he obeyed God and bound Isaac to the alter and lifted the knife to kill him? What did God learn? How about ***? When God cleared Satan to test Him did God learn anything about ***? I really want to know these things.. IHS jim

You missed my point completely. Reread for comprehension this time.

Marvin

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by James Banta

And Fig, if God doesn't need to test us then why isn't salvation into His very best blessing in heaven guaranteed here and now? IHS jim

That would not be good for us. The struggle between good and evil must be experienced by us individuals. That is part of God's Plan.

You might ask YOURSELF: What's the purpose of life if you were to know for sure that your destination is guaranteed hell and there's no hope for you. Or what's the purpose of life if you already know that your destination is guaranteed heaven no matter what you do?

[nrajeff]

Would it really be a good idea for the college to give you the degree first, and then tell you to start taking some cl***es after?

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Would it really be a good idea for the college to give you the degree first, and then tell you to start taking some cl***es after?

An excellent example, Jeff.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

An excellent example, Jeff.

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

So, God first hands you a diploma, and then says "now go study". And that is God's way?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

So, God first hands you a diploma, and then says "now go study". And that is God's way?

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I d.


Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.


Figster says the God of the Bible is "unrighteous" and this is why he prefers JS' IDOL.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whom I will have comp***ion.


Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

[nrajeff]

OK, then, FJD, I want you to repay me, now, the $1000 that I am going to lend you in 10 years. 'Cause that's really the way it works, right?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Russianwolfe

It is not God's faith that is being tested. When our faith is tested we learn something about ourselves. As you point out God is all knowing; but we are not. When God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham has something to learn about Abraham, not God.

Marvin

Saving faith is a gift from God.. It isn't our faith at all it is a faith He gives us therefore it is His faith.. Did God command Abraham so he could learn a lesson or did God give that command for our sake? It is an interesting question.. See Abraham was not justified in this obedience to God but in his trust in God completely..

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

The again His obedience was a wonderful example to the Church about being obedient and trusting God.. But since you agree that God knew how Abraham was going to react to His commandment in offering Issac. The command wasn't to make Him righteous in God's eyes. And I see your point as well Abraham learned that He could always trust the Lord is all circumstances.. Have we learned that same lesson? I know for me I am like the father of the Child that Jesus raises off His sick bed saying:

Mark 9:24
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

If that doesn't describe you at lease some of the time I would be impressed. IHS jim

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I d.


Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.


Figster says the God of the Bible is "unrighteous" and this is why he prefers JS' IDOL.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have comp***ion on whom I will have comp***ion.


Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

FJD admits that is IS God's way to give the diploma before any studying is done.