Do you see "Salvation" as a "means" or an "end"

[Grandma]

God chooses a person. Rom. 8:30
God saves a person. Eph. 2:8-9; ***us 3:5
God adds the person who is being saved to the Church. Acts 2:47
God works all things for good to those He has called. Rom. 8:28
God will keep us firm to the end. 1 Cor. 1:8

I Cor. 1:9
"God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

Isa. 49:15
"Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have comp***ion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee."

We have p***ed from death to life! And God keeps His promises!

We have been saved (God declared it.) We are being saved. And we will be saved when our lives on earth are over.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

God chooses a person. Rom. 8:30
God saves a person. Eph. 2:8-9; ***us 3:5
God adds the person who is being saved to the Church. Acts 2:47
God works all things for good to those He has called. Rom. 8:28
God will keep us firm to the end. 1 Cor. 1:8

I Cor. 1:9
"God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

Isa. 49:15
"Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have comp***ion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee."

We have p***ed from death to life! And God keeps His promises!

We have been saved (God declared it.) We are being saved. And we will be saved when our lives on earth are over.

Ahhhhh.... You seem to be missing a few very important steps..

By your succession of events you have two problems.

First, you have people saved in their sins! In other words, unrepentant sinners will be in heaven.

Second, you can't resolve my first observation without all your other steps happening at the same, thereby creating a paradox.

Sorry, but will not be able to make your Calvanistic heresies work, even God can not do that without contradicting Himself.

[Phoenix]

i see your point, theway, and it seems quite logical. if it were true that a person is saved first, before repentance, then if that person were to die immediately after being saved, then the person died without repenting of his sins, which means that his sins were never remitted or forgiven--and never can be forgiven, if people aren't allowed a chance to repent after they die. which means that either:

-- the person will get eternal life despite never being forgiven, which is heretical; or
-- that person has no hope of being saved, which contradicts the premise that he DID get saved--right before he died.

both options seem pretty false and illogical and "not within the pale of accepted Christianity," imo.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

Originally Posted by Grandma

God chooses a person. Rom. 8:30
God saves a person. Eph. 2:8-9; ***us 3:5
God adds the person who is being saved to the Church. Acts 2:47
God works all things for good to those He has called. Rom. 8:28
God will keep us firm to the end. 1 Cor. 1:8

I Cor. 1:9
"God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

Isa. 49:15
"Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have comp***ion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee."

We have p***ed from death to life! And God keeps His promises!

We have been saved (God declared it.) We are being saved. And we will be saved when our lives on earth are over.

Ahhhhh.... You seem to be missing a few very important steps..

Such as? Are you talking about the life we live as a result of Christ living in us --- the Imperishable Seed? That is something that happens to His sheep. They are following the Shepherd. Did you not read Romans 8:28?

Originally Posted by theway

By your succession of events you have two problems.

First, you have people saved in their sins! In other words, unrepentant sinners will be in heaven.

There are ni sinners in heaven.

Originally Posted by theway

Second, you can't resolve my first observation without all your other steps happening at the same, thereby creating a paradox.

Sorry, but will not be able to make your Calvanistic heresies work, even God can not do that without contradicting Himself.

Not sure of what you're trying to get across, but it sounds like you don't trust God to keep His promises.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

i see your point, theway, and it seems quite logical. if it were true that a person is saved first, before repentance, then if that person were to die immediately after being saved, then the person died without repenting of his sins, which means that his sins were never remitted or forgiven--and never can be forgiven, if people aren't allowed a chance to repent after they die. which means that either:

-- the person will get eternal life despite never being forgiven, which is heretical; or
-- that person has no hope of being saved, which contradicts the premise that he DID get saved--right before he died.

both options seem pretty false and illogical and "not within the pale of accepted Christianity," imo.

We are forgiven the moment God grants the new birth. The sheep that was going astray is now following the shepherd.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Such as? Are you talking about the life we live as a result of Christ living in us --- the Imperishable Seed? That is something that happens to His sheep. They are following the Shepherd. Did you not read Romans 8:28?

Thats part of it... However before we can even begin to discuss these items as well as baptism, becoming perfect, obeying God, etc... You'll have to first solve the paradox of your original statement.

Originally Posted by Grandma

There are ni sinners in heaven.

I agree there are [no] sinners in Heaven, which is why I am perplexed as to why you have forgotten about: Forgiveness of sins? Faith? and Repentance?

Originally Posted by Grandma

Not sure of what you're trying to get across, but it sounds like you don't trust God to keep His promises.

In Christian Love,
Grandma

Oh I trust God, I'm just don't trust you and your made-up doctrine of contradictions and paradoxes...
For instance... In your "God does it all" Modern doctrine, please place in order of occurrence the following statements of yours, and then tell us how long it can take God to complete each step?
For instance; if the first thing God does is Choose a person, then how long can it take before we are actually saved? Can I be chosen and not know it, then die and be saved without ever knowing God?

Please place in order and give time limits to each...

God chooses a person.
God saves a person.
God adds the person who is being saved to the Church.
God works all things for good to those He has called.
God will keep us firm to the end.
God forgives a person.
God works repentance on a person.
God gives man Faith.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

Thats part of it... However before we can even begin to discuss these items as well as baptism, becoming perfect, obeying God, etc... You'll have to first solve the paradox of your original statement.

No there are [no] sinners in Heaven, which is why I am perplexed as to why you have forgotten about: Forgiveness of sins, and Repentance?

Oh I trust God, I'm just don't trust you and you made-up doctrine of contradictions and paradoxes...
For instance... In your "God does it all" Modern doctrine, please place in order of occurrence the following statements of yours, and then tell us how long it can take God to complete each step?
For instance; if the first thing God does is Choose a person, then how long can it take before we are actually saved? Can I be chosen and not know it, then die and be saved without ever knowing God?

How odd that you want God to tell you His timing! I don't insist that God do everything in a time frame. Everyone God chooses will know God in this life. Try to see what God is saying in the Bible.

John 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Please place in order and give time limits to each...
God chooses a person.
God saves a person.
God adds the person who is being saved to the Church.
God works all things for good to those He has called.
God will keep us firm to the end.
God forgives a person.
God works repentance on a person.

Simultaneous:

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all tresp***es;

Ephesians 4:32
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

This is speaking of the new birth and regeneration. The spiritually dead person is brought to life. Now he's sorry for his sins and wants to please God. He belongs to Christ's Church and He belongs to God.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Romans 8
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Is Christ a Good Shepherd? How good is He? Will He lose one sheep?

Isaiah 41:10
Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

How odd that you want God to tell you His timing! I don't insist that God do everything in a time frame. Everyone God chooses will know God in this life.

I guess that under your theology God has no time for Asians as they represent the largest majority of people who have lived and yet are the smallest percentage of people who God has Chosen to be saved.
It seems God only likes choosing white Europeans and North Americans under you beliefs....

Originally Posted by Grandma

Try to see what God is saying in the Bible.

Why would I need to do that? seeing as though reading or understanding the Bible is not on your list of requirements for salvation?
According to your theology that makes it ironically one of your unbiblical requirements.

Originally Posted by Grandma

Simultaneous:

And here is yet the first of the many paradoxes of your beliefs....
If it was simultaneous then that begs the question.... Was I "Chosen" before I was born? And if so, does that mean I was free of sin and saved before I was born?
I could go on, and on, and on, with all the holes in your simple one word reply, but let's just start with you answering this one contradiction first.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

I guess that under your theology God has no time for Asians as they represent the largest majority of people who have lived and yet are the smallest percentage of people who God has Chosen to be saved.
It seems God only lies choosing white Europeans and North Americans under you beliefs....



Why would I need to do that? seeing as though reading or understanding the Bible is not on your list of requirements for salvation?
According to your theology that makes it ironically one of your unbiblical requirements.



And here is yet the first of the many paradoxes of your beliefs....
If it was simultaneous then that begs the question.... Was I "Chosen" before I was born? And if so, does that mean I was free of sin and saved before I was born?
I could go on, and on, and on, with all the holes in your simple one word reply, but let's just start with you answering this one contradiction first.

The only holes in the TRUTH that I'm presenting are ones that you're digging. Apparently, you don't want to know the TRUTH. Someday God may give you a new heart.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Phoenix]

but granny, your "simultaneous everything" theory is unbiblical, and there is no evidence of any early christians--including the new testament-era apostles-- believing it. the evidence that has survived indicates that they believed the opposite of your theory. for example: peter told the jews who believed his preaching about the gospel this when they asked him what they should do next: "repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins."

that one simple statement in the bible that you claim to get your beliefs from shoots your beliefs down in flames.

if those jews were already simultaneously chosen, saved, added to the Church, and forgiven...then what peter told them was nonsense and a lie.

you are going to have to choose as the truth, one of the following:

what the bible teaches, or this theory of yours.

[Grandma]

Apparently, you don't want to know the TRUTH. Someday God may give you a new heart. I'll pray for you, but our conversations are ended because we've hit an imp***e. Joseph Smith adopted Alexander Campbell's theory about baptism, no doubt via Sidney Rigdon or Oliver Cowdery.


In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

The only holes in the TRUTH that I'm presenting are ones that you're digging. Apparently, you don't want to know the TRUTH. Someday God may give you a new heart.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

I know the truth... And what you are selling is not it....
You realize that as well, otherwise you would answer my questions.
Were you chosen by God to salvation before you were born, Yes or no?

[theway]

this forum keeps malfunctioning... In more ways than one.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Apparently, you don't want to know the TRUTH.

the truth is that you aren't following the bible's recipe for being saved. and we do know that truth, since we are challenging your unbiblical beliefs.

Someday God may give you a new heart.

maybe he will give you a new one, and then you will believe what the bible says about the recipe for salvation, instead of this newfangled theory you have come up with to replace the bible's recipe.

I'll pray for you,

it will do you no good to pray that a person will stop believing what the bible teaches.

but our conversations are ended because we've hit an imp***e.

if it's an imp***e, it's because you don't want to accept what the bible teaches.

Joseph Smith adopted Alexander Campbell's theory about baptism

what theory is that? elaborate.

no doubt via Sidney Rigdon or Oliver Cowdery.

they were both christians, and you claim to be a christian, so why is your belief any more biblical than the beliefs of those fellow christians?

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Someday God may give you a new heart.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

God will give me a new heart? LOL... Apparently you must believe that God has already chosen me then... Which by you "simultaneous" comment means you believe I am already saved...

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by theway

God will give me a new heart? LOL... Apparently you must believe that God has already chosen me then... Which by you "simultaneous" comment means you believe I am already saved...

that paradox is making me dizzy. like when i try too hard to make sense of the trinity theory.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Just curious how different people view the subject of "SALVATION" or "BEING SAVED"

Is it a means, or an end? Please explain either way.

Thanks.

Mostly I use the term "salvation" when talking in the past tense...
Mostly I use the term "Being Saved" for current or future tense...

Salvation as I mostly use it in a sentence, is like, "The repair truck was my salvation"
Being saved as I mostly use it in a sentence is like "Cant talk now too busy being saved by the repair truck " or "We plan on being saved by the repair truck"




aside from that, the only thing I remember about the word "salvation" is that its based on a root word that we translate as "Salve" and I think that word means a 'covering" that is now a term used for medical creams.