Do you see "Salvation" as a "means" or an "end"

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

No, I was referring to "common sense"...and just because we are created "Imago Dei" (whereas Mormonism is "imago ****") and do possess "consciences" doesn't mean they're trustworthy because of the FALL, Fig.

So your conscience is not trustworthy because of the fall? (Unless you are a member of the bourgeois regenerate Cl*** and Caste, I guess.)

Originally Posted by Father_JD

"The heart is desperately WICKED, who can know it?"

You'll never understand the depth of human depravity until you understand, as King David did, that we're "born into sin" and by nature are spirtually DEAD...not just inconvenienced or a little incompacitated, but DEAD.

I understand your apparent loathing of and contempt for man. We've been over this before. Babies are not born sinful. They are born into a state where they are subject to temptation and sin.

That does not mean Mankind brings filthiness with him at birth.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Father_JD
No, I was referring to "common sense"...and just because we are created "Imago Dei" (whereas Mormonism is "imago ****") and do possess "consciences" doesn't mean they're trustworthy because of the FALL, Fig.

So your conscience is not trustworthy because of the fall? (Unless you are a member of the bourgeois regenerate Cl*** and Caste, I guess.)

What does scripture say, Fig?? "The heart is desperately wicked, who can know it?" Also..."There are ways that seem right to a man but are the ways of death". Only the Redeemed have hope with a regenerate "conscience" which is still held accountable to God's OBJECTIVE STANDARDS as recorded in the Bible, Fig.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Father_JD
"The heart is desperately WICKED, who can know it?"

You'll never understand the depth of human depravity until you understand, as King David did, that we're "born into sin" and by nature are spirtually DEAD...not just inconvenienced or a little incompacitated, but DEAD.

I understand your apparent loathing of and contempt for man. We've been over this before. Babies are not born sinful. They are born into a state where they are subject to temptation and sin.

That does not mean Mankind brings filthiness with him at birth.

You OVERestimate our condition which scripture declares us to be CHILDREN OF WRATH. Your argument isn't with me, but with GOD HIMSELF and HIS WORD, Fig. You haven't yet begun to wrestle with scripture which resists Mormon twisting. David said, "born IN SIN". We are born with sinful natures and all of your quasi-Pelagian posing doesn't begin to address the reality of SIN or our sinful NATURES FROM BIRTH.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

"The heart is desperately WICKED, who can know it?"

--The AOL takes that statement, and interprets it as "What your spirit is telling you is a witness from the Holy Spirit, is wicked and unreliable, but your MIND--with the help of the "right" commentaries--CAN be trusted all the time." Which is of course the height of folly, given the track record of people's minds and the "scholars" who molded those minds. Face it, FJD--you left what you now feel to be a cult, and joined a cult of another type: the cult of the god of academia

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

--The AOL takes that statement, and interprets it as "What your spirit is telling you is a witness from the Holy Spirit, is wicked and unreliable, but your MIND--with the help of the "right" commentaries--CAN be trusted all the time." Which is of course the height of folly, given the track record of people's minds and the "scholars" who molded those minds. Face it, FJD--you left what you now feel to be a cult, and joined a cult of another type: the cult of the god of academia

C'mon, jeff...I would hope you could transcend a typical Mormon "straw-man" argument.

You have NO objective MEANS to know whether your "witness from the Holy Spirit" is really from God because you've rejected the OBJECTIVE Word of God by which to judge your warm-fuzzies.

You've also equivocated from "conscience" to now one of epistimology.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

C'mon, jeff...I would hope you could transcend a typical Mormon "straw-man" argument.

---I would, if you could demonstrate that it really is a straw man. Too many Evangelicals are falling for the idea that of the heart and the Smithsonian, the heart is the less reliable.

You have NO objective MEANS to know whether your "witness from the Holy Spirit" is really from God because you've rejected the OBJECTIVE Word of God by which to judge your warm-fuzzies.

---"The objective word of God"? Oh, that sounds like the makings of a fun debate.

You've also equivocated from "conscience" to now one of epistimology.

--I think true things can be known via communication to one's spirit just as surely as they can be known via going to college and reading FF Bruce. It's epistemology either way. The question is which way is really more reliable? Which has the better track record?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---I would, if you could demonstrate that it really is a straw man. Too many Evangelicals are falling for the idea that of the heart and the Smithsonian, the heart is the less reliable.

The heart IS less reliable...and that IS what scripture teaches, jeff.

---"The objective word of God"? Oh, that sounds like the makings of a fun debate.

It's a helluva more objective than the Mormon warm-fuzzy, jeff.

--I think true things can be known via communication to one's spirit just as surely as they can be known via going to college and reading FF Bruce. It's epistemology either way. The question is which way is really more reliable? Which has the better track record?

The question is, jeff:

Does this "communication to one's spirit" TESTABLE? Does it conform to the BIBLE?

You put the cart before the horse. Instead of judging Mormon doctrine BY the Bible, you judge the Bible BY the warm-fuzzy.

That's just not a "better track record" by any means.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Does this "communication to one's spirit" TESTABLE? Does it conform to the BIBLE?

You put the cart before the horse. Instead of judging Mormon doctrine BY the Bible, you judge the Bible BY the warm-fuzzy.

That's just not a "better track record" by any means.

How do you propose to test a testimony? Compare it to academia and scholarship?

Seems like a whole lot of relying on the arm of flesh going on in your church of academia, FJD.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

How do you propose to test a testimony? Compare it to academia and scholarship?

Seems like a whole lot of relying on the arm of flesh going on in your church of academia, FJD.

You have it all wrong we don't even doubt your feelings about the church.. They are not open to discussion.. The question is about evidence for the peoples the BofM said lived in these lands at the time of Jesus.. The question is can a man who gave false prophecy be held as a reliable source for God to speak though?

The answers are, there is no evidence for a people existence such as the BofM describes.. Jerusalem was destroyed three times and yet we know where it was because we know where it is.. This is not the case for one city mentioned in the BofM.. Duet 18 commands that a prophets messages are to be tested, when we test the words that Smith said he received from God his message failed. Remember Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery went to Toronto on this mission, but they failed to receive the promises that Smith pronounced for doing so.. and what did he say?

"Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil." (An Address To All Believers In Christ, 1887, pp.30-31).

From this it can clearly be seen that Smith couldn't even tell if his "revelations" were from his own heart or even from Satan.. This is the evidence we can see and it points to the fact that your testimony is misplaced.. But you are right your feeling belong to you.. All Christians can do is tell you.. Jesus is God, He came here died for you and rose again to insure your place with Him eternally.. We lift Jesus as the MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, THE PRINCE OF PEACE.. You can always use your freedom and choose to believe a liar like Joseph Smith and turn to his false gods and away from the LORD of Heaven and earth..

I haven't attacked your testimony here.. Only the evidence that supports that testimony. If you wish to go on believing that the Easter bunny brings candy to your children every Easter Sunday I can stop you. All I can do is show you that if you don't place their goodies around the house they won't be there Easter morning..
IHS jim

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You have it all wrong we don't even doubt your feelings about the church.. They are not open to discussion.. The question is about evidence for the peoples the BofM said lived in these lands at the time of Jesus.. The question is can a man who gave false prophecy be held as a reliable source for God to speak though?

The only evidence I really need to believe in the restored Gospel, is God's gift of the Holy Ghost, and of a testimony, and my own change of heart.

Those 3 undeniable gifts pretty much have me convinced.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

The only evidence I really need to believe in the restored Gospel, is God's gift of the Holy Ghost, and of a testimony, and my own change of heart.

Those 3 undeniable gifts pretty much have me convinced.

And since others get thosem same things in other sources like Judaism, and even Islam.. They must be just as filled with truth as mormonism.. FEELINGS DON'T CHANGE ERROR INTO TRUTH.. IHS jim

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

How do you propose to test a testimony? Compare it to academia and scholarship?

Compare it to the clear, OBJECTIVE teaching of the Bible, Fig. All you've got here is just another tired canard that Mormons have the "spirit" of the Mormon deity telling them what's true and the Christian is DEVOID of the spirit, relying on "academia and scholarship".

As they like to say here in Texas:

That dog won't hunt.

Seems like a whole lot of relying on the arm of flesh going on in your church of academia, FJD.

Ironically, you relied on "the arm of flesh" of a FALSE "prophet" named Joseph Smith, Jr.

How about addressing the very real, objective, verifiable ways one can discern just how fractured Mormon hermeneutics are, where you superimpose Mormon meaning onto the Biblical text, thereby SKEWING the intended MEANING of the Biblical authors??

Example?

God clearly states that there is NO OTHER GOD...categoric statements by the Almighty Himself...statements you EQUIVOCATE and SKEW into meaning, "NO OTHER GOD whom you're supposed to worship"???


You twist, distort clear Biblical statements in a vain effort to make them CONFORM to Mormon belief.

[nrajeff]

So the compe***ion, in your mind, is between the reliability or track record of people's hearts, vs. the reliability or track record of people's minds. And you say minds are the clear winner. Interesting. What if BOTH my heart AND my mind are telling me that Trinitarianism and TULIP have some major flaws? Which side wins THEN? And academia's track record is that a majority of the world's scholars have concluded that Darwinian evolution is true and the Bible is a collection of myths written by largely anonymous supers***ious authors. And Communism and eugenics are a exercises in trusting the mind. Good *** there, right? So much for the triumph of the mind over the spirit.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

So the compe***ion, in your mind, is between the reliability or track record of people's hearts, vs. the reliability or track record of people's minds. And you say minds are the clear winner. Interesting. What if BOTH my heart AND my mind are telling me that Trinitarianism and TULIP have some major flaws? Which side wins THEN? And academia's track record is that a majority of the world's scholars have concluded that Darwinian evolution is true and the Bible is a collection of myths written by largely anonymous supers***ious authors. And Communism and eugenics are a exercises in trusting the mind. Good *** there, right? So much for the triumph of the mind over the spirit.

No. False dilemma, jeff. Truth is established by scripture which will be revealed in BOTH mind and heart. My mind and heart are in conformity with scripture which declares that there is ONLY ONE GOD, and therefore Mormonism is necessarily FALSE, being henotheistic at best, polytheistic at worst.

"Academia" of the theological kind altered their world-view beginning with the Age of Enlightenment and attendant philosophies which denied supernaturalism, miracles and revelation. They come to the table with their world-view which dismisses the above out-of-hand, thereby forcing their "understanding" down certain pathways which are at odds with both the Biblical record and the fossil evidence. There is NO evidence for macro-evolution but mere lateral, adaptation development which doesn't contradict the Bible.

In short, the mind doesn't triumph over the spirit, neither does the spirit triumph over the mind...as it most certainly does in MORMONISM.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by James Banta

And since others get thosem same things in other sources like Judaism, and even Islam.. They must be just as filled with truth as mormonism.. FEELINGS DON'T CHANGE ERROR INTO TRUTH.. IHS jim

How do you know their experience is just like mine? Are you the diviner of what people feel in their hearts now?

If there is some truth in a belief, but not the fulness of truth, the Holy Spirit will still work to lead a person to that portion of truth and then on from there to the next portion of truth and eventually to a fulness, if the person continues to respond to the light he has already received.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

So the compe***ion, in your mind, is between the reliability or track record of people's hearts, vs. the reliability or track record of people's minds. And you say minds are the clear winner. Interesting. What if BOTH my heart AND my mind are telling me that Trinitarianism and TULIP have some major flaws? Which side wins THEN? And academia's track record is that a majority of the world's scholars have concluded that Darwinian evolution is true and the Bible is a collection of myths written by largely anonymous supers***ious authors. And Communism and eugenics are a exercises in trusting the mind. Good *** there, right? So much for the triumph of the mind over the spirit.

Excellent points, Jeff. I hope JD and the other AOLs actually read what you wrote.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

No. False dilemma, jeff. Truth is established by scripture which will be revealed in BOTH mind and heart. My mind and heart are in conformity with scripture which declares that there is ONLY ONE GOD, and therefore Mormonism is necessarily FALSE, being henotheistic at best, polytheistic at worst.

Can you tell me what other God we LDS worship besides the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?[/QUOTE]

[akaSeerone]

Fig.....why do you act so innocent?

Between CARM and here and I do not know where else, you have been at this for quite some time and you already know our side of this issue, so why the games?

It sounds Christian for mormons to say they worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but in reality that simply is not true because the god of mormonism and the God of the Bible just are not the same and the God of the Bible is the only God there is, so you do not worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Mormonism has tried to change the meaning of many things in the Bible including who and what God is.......like teaching that God was once a man.....That has man making God and that is idol worship, because any man made god is an idol/false god and that is not the God that Christians worship and is not the God of the Bible.

Now grow up already and quit with the games.....this is serious business here, not your personal play ground.

Andy

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

How do you know their experience is just like mine? Are you the diviner of what people feel in their hearts now?

If there is some truth in a belief, but not the fulness of truth, the Holy Spirit will still work to lead a person to that portion of truth and then on from there to the next portion of truth and eventually to a fulness, if the person continues to respond to the light he has already received.

Are your experiences like those of other mormons? What difference does it make? Emotional experiences no matter what you are feeling don't matter if these are what is used to know truth from error them your experience is no more authoritative than mine or a Jehovah's Witness, a Jew, or a Muslim.. That is NOT the way to identify truth and it seem to be the ONLY way mormonism calls to have it's truth or falsehood examined.. IHS jim

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by [QUOTE

Fig-bearing Thistle;32696]How do you know their experience is just like mine? Are you the diviner of what people feel in their hearts now?

Jesus told us how to discern the heart.

Matthew 12:34

34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

If there is some truth in a belief, but not the fulness of truth, the Holy Spirit will still work to lead a person to that portion of truth and then on from there to the next portion of truth and eventually to a fulness, if the person continues to respond to the light he has already received.

[/QUOTE]
That does not fly because it has people contributing to their own salvation and that is not Bible....Salvation is a free gift and it is all about what Jesus did....we cannot add to that in any way.

Andy

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Can you tell me what other God we LDS worship besides the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...

1. Has ALWAYS been deity. He didn't "progress" to "godhood" as the Mormon deity did.
2. God the Father is SPIRIT according to scripture and Jesus' OWN WORDS. The Mormon "God the Father" is an exalted human incarnate male.

Therefore, your "god" is NOT THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC, AND JACOB.

You've been told this hundreds of times...and that you can NOT defend your dogma from the Bible...not only are your beliefs NOT supported by the Bible, your doctrinal beliefs CONTRADICT the Bible.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Excellent points, Jeff. I hope JD and the other AOLs actually read what you wrote.

I've already answered jeff's "posers", Fig. I hope you'll read MINE.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Just curious how different people view the subject of "SALVATION" or "BEING SAVED"

Is it a means, or an end? Please explain either way.

Thanks.

It really depends on the context of what you have in mind at the time.
"salvation" can be a life-long endeavor....and it can be talking about a moment of personal change in your life.
Both ideas are true, and both go on at the same time.

We are saved to be able to go out and do good works.
Thus the moment you become a christian you also start walking down the path of service.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

It really depends on the context of what you have in mind at the time.
"salvation" can be a life-long endeavor....and it can be talking about a moment of personal change in your life.
Both ideas are true, and both go on at the same time.

We are saved to be able to go out and do good works.
Thus the moment you become a christian you also start walking down the path of service.

Two different spiritual events that everyone needs.. First salvation.. It is a gift given to ALL who believe in Jesus as He is taught in the Bible.. Believing that He is our Savior, He who is Wonderful, our Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace.. Anything less than that and you don't worship the Jesus of the bible but merely a idol designed in the minds of mere men. To become His child by His grace through faith plus NOTHING gives a person salvation INSTANTLY. Then there is Justification. This is the hard part.. This is where we allow God to recreate us in the image of His Son.. This is where our flesh really resists the work of Gd within us. It fights the new creation God formed within us as we believed. Here we shake off our prejudgments of the poor as being less worthy than the rich. Here we learn to care for those who need more care such as the homeless, the hungry, the orphan, the widowed, and the naked. We learn the meaning of the life Jesus has called us to live. To be His hands in taking His message of redemption to the world while not ignoring the temporal needs of those he died to save..

We are saved the moment we become a child of God through faith in Jesus.. We are recreated by God in the process of our justification.. IHS jim

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Just curious how different people view the subject of "SALVATION" or "BEING SAVED"

Is it a means, or an end? Please explain either way.

Thanks.

SALVATION is an end.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

HAVE BEEN saved (it is done. As Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished." The payment for the penalty of our sins has been paid.

NOW WE GROW in Jesus. All the time safe in HIS arms. HE is the good shepherd.

[kjb]

I just happened by this thread and was drawn in by Fig's question. Funny, it struck me as one intended to provoke in a way which actually draws one away from the simplicity of the gospel message. There is no clearer message about salvation than that which is presented in Ephesians 2. Salvation is a *gift* to those whom God has chosen. (Eph. 1) We always want to think we have something to do with it. We always want, as Fig said to, "think God places our consciences in us for a reason, and they are to guide us to the truth." We must not presume what God has or has not done. Rather, all we need to understand has already been revealed to us in His holy scripture, the Bible. Sola Scriptura.

If we rely on fallen, completely depraved human beings to "feel" truth, then we certainly will never see any need to trust in a sovereign God who is responsible alone not only for our salvation, but our justification AND our sanctification, accomplished through the work of Christ alone. Solus Christus. Further, our glorification is also his work: "“Those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified” (Rom 8:30). In His grace, our holy God has granted that we will actually share in His glory.

It is important not to conflate sanctification into justification (mentioned in the thread). The grounds of our justification is the merit of Christ, which becomes ours through faith alone (Rom. 3:28; Gal. 2:16) In Justification, our sins are imputed to Christ who bore them on the cross on our behalf. Christ's righteousness is, at the same time, imputed to believers where they are now viewed by God as cloaked in the righteousness of Christ. The beauty of the double imputation of Christ. Sanctification, on the other hand is "the work of God’s free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness." (WSC35) We are not sanctified by our good works; rather, it is because God sanctified us, that by His grace, He produces good works in our lives. (Gal. 5)

Only until you understand just how fallen a creature you are -- only until you grasp the gravity of the sin of all of mankind because of Adam's disobedience as our federal head of the human race -- can you fully understand the immensity of the salvation given to us as a gift from God, whose mercy is unmeasurable. As covenantal or federal head, Adam acted on behalf of the whole race in what is known as the covenant of works. The covenant of grace (which we, as believers live beneath) has as its head, the "second man," and the "Last Adam" (1 Cor. 15:45-47), the Lord Jesus Christ. This whole concept also spoken of in Romans 5. Christ died on our behalf while we were/are weak and helpless (5:6), while we/are were guilty sinners (5:8), and while we were/are God's rebellious enemies (5:10).

If you don't get this part right (that we are, by nature, spiritually dead), then it's hard to get the rest of it right. You really have to start at the beginning to understand the whole story. Our hearts are so enslaved to sin that we would never desire to choose God on our own -- because we are born children of Adam. God first must change the disposition of our hearts for that to happen (regeneration). Because we are in bondage to our own desires (which scripture says is evil all the time - Gen 6:5) we would never choose God without his mercy being exhibited towards us.

So is it a means or an end? That is not the question to ask at all. It is the gospel alone that is the power unto salvation (Rom. 1:16)....not your wishes, perceptions and certainly not your tainted conscience. Certainly not your misguided feelings. Our salvation is a gift from God alone.

34 years ago, as a very young adult, I checked into the Mormon Church sincerity and with all good intentions to make it my church. Why? Mainly because the Mormons I met were such good people. It did not take long to figure out, as someone who likes to research, that Mormon doctrine was full of grave theological errors. Bottom line: Theology, grounded on the Bible alone, matters. I had to learn to distance my feelings for the Mormon people from the false nature of the Mormon Church. To understand, as someone said above, that all people are created in the Imago Dei, the image of God. Yet, not all will be called by God. God is both merciful and just.

I certainly don't blame Mormons for their opinions about evangelicals. Sadly, the evangelical church has, in the past few decades, failed to preach the gospel well -- allowing culture to rule within their doors and are guilty of misrepresenting the gospel. Thankfully, not all true Christian churches are guilty of this, but they are hard to find; they are usually small and have a historical perspective. (A good book to read: Christless Christianity by Dr. Michael Horton.)

To end, I would recommend a hearty reading of Ephesians 1-3 in regard to salvation, specifically, to remember what the gospel (and salvation) really is.......we all deserved wrath as children of Adam, but God chose to save some in spite of it all. I find that miraculous. The more we leave "me" out of it, the more clearly we see.

So -- don't beat me up here -- I'm a lady I won't stay too long in a conversation because it usually becomes fruitless and I am able to rest in God in these things. Just know that within orthodox Christianity, there are theological differences worthy of consideration.

Last note: To explain some of what I was saying about covenants, you might have an inkling to read this article, but I am not sure you will be able to open it as I have a subscription. http://www.modernreformation.org/def...utRes&var5=247 It leaves out one covenant, the Covenant of Redemption, but speaks of the other two mentioned in my post.

I have discovered that many of my Mormon friends have never heard of Covenant Theology, which is the lens used by reformed theology. Rather, they have been exposed to Dispensationalism, which in my personal opinion, does not "get it right." Understanding the beauty of Covenant Theology made the Bible come alive and in context -- something badly needed in this generation. I well expect for evangelicals in this thread to come at me for saying this -- just know I won't play along.