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Thread: Torture

  1. #51
    asdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Man View Post
    Their basis is their belief that it is wrong.
    But in all their memos and legal justification and television interviews, they are going out of their way to say it's not wrong.

    Their problem is that nobody likes hypocrites, including terrorists.
    Quite so.

  2. #52
    Trinity
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    Default CIA Torture Just Bad Science, Report Says

    CIA Torture Just Bad Science, Report Says
    Interrogation Techniques May Have Damaged Suspects' Ability To Provide Vital Information, Scientist Finds

    (AP) The CIA's harsh interrogation program likely damaged the brain and memory functions of terrorist suspects, diminishing their physical ability to provide the detailed information the spy agency sought, according to a new scientific paper.

    The paper by an Irish academic scrutinizes the harsh techniques used by the CIA under the Bush administration through the lens of neurobiology. Researchers concluded that the harsh methods were biologically counterproductive to eliciting quality information because prolonged stress harms the brain's ability to retain and recall information.

    "Solid scientific evidence on how repeated and extreme stress and pain affect memory and executive functions (such as planning or forming intentions) suggests these techniques are unlikely to do anything other than the opposite of that intended by coercive or enhanced interrogation," according to the paper published Monday in the scientific journal, "Trends in Cognitive Science: Science and Society."

    In the paper, Shane O'Mara, a professor at Ireland's Trinity College Ins***ute of Neuroscience, wrote that the severe interrogation techniques appear based on "folk psychology" - a layman's idea of how the brain works as opposed to science-based understanding of memory and cognitive function.
    The list of techniques the CIA used included prolonged sleep deprivation - six days in at least one instance - being chained in painful positions, exploiting prisoners' phobias, and waterboarding, a form of simulated drowning that President Barack Obama has called torture. Three CIA prisoners were waterboarded, two of them extensively.

    Those methods cause the brain to release stress hormones that, if their release is repeated and prolonged, may result in compromised brain function and even tissue loss, O'Mara wrote.

    He warned that this could lead to brain lobe disorders, making the prisoners vulnerable to confabulation - the pathological production of false memories based on suggestions from an interrogator. Those false memories mix with true information in the interrogation, making it difficult to distinguish between what is real and what is fabricated.

    Waterboarding is especially stressful "with the potential to cause widespread stress-induced changes in the brain, especially when these are repeated frequently and intensively," O'Mara wrote.

    "The fact that the detrimental effects of these techniques on the brain are not visible to the naked eye makes them no less real," O'Mara wrote.

    The paper also ***erted that forcibly exposing prisoners to what they are afraid of - the CIA got approval to use a suspect's fear of insects against him - is actually a method used to cure phobias.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5327342.shtml

    Trinity
    Last edited by Trinity; 09-21-2009 at 04:33 PM.

  3. #53
    Bat-Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    ...The paper also ***erted that forcibly exposing prisoners to what they are afraid of - the CIA got approval to use a suspect's fear of insects against him - is actually a method used to cure phobias.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5327342.shtml
    I'd just like to add that you don't have to FORCE someone to confront their fears to cure them of their fears.

    For example: To overcome a fear of bats, if you are afraid of them, you can simply choose to stand in the middle of a LOT of bats and eventually you won't be afraid of the bats anymore.

    Of course, if they're vampire bats, you could end up dead due to a loss of too much blood, but at least you wouldn't be afraid anymore.

  4. #54
    Trinity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Man View Post
    I'd just like to add that you don't have to FORCE someone to confront their fears to cure them of their fears.

    For example: To overcome a fear of bats, if you are afraid of them, you can simply choose to stand in the middle of a LOT of bats and eventually you won't be afraid of the bats anymore.

    Of course, if they're vampire bats, you could end up dead due to a loss of too much blood, but at least you wouldn't be afraid anymore.
    LOL

    Trinity

  5. #55
    alanmolstad
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    Torture works...thats the fact of life that the tree-huggers dont like to talk about.

    The fact is that over 100s and 100s of years the history of how governments have learned things about each other is that the use Torture works .

    It works, and it seems to work all the time.
    It also helps confirm the results of other Torture .

    In the real world what we have seen true for us and in our current wars is that there comes a time when you put a guy who might know something into a room, then you go in the same room and do what needs to be done to get the required information.

  6. #56
    asdf
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    I stand by #3 above: "[Torture] leads to bad intelligence, corrupts good intelligence, and confessions stemmed from torture are inadmissible in court."


    Did you (re)read this whole thread? I cited two former Army interrogators who explain how proper interrogation works, and why torture is an***hetical to the aim of good intelligence. Would you like me to dig up those links again?


    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Torture works.
    "Torture works". That depends on what you mean by "works". A tortured person will say anything to get the torture to stop. That is torture's aim, and at that it is indeed successful. Surely it leads to confessions — but does it lead to good intelligence? I have not seen convincing evidence to suggest that it does (even if I were to admit for the sake of argument — which I emphatically do not — that the ends justify the means).

    The fact is that over 100s and 100s of years the history of how governments have learned things about each other is that the use Torture works
    That is absolutely untrue. For the entire history of the U.S., under every presidency from George Washington to William Clinton, torture has been explicitly forbidden. We have held courts-martial and war crimes tribunals against soldiers—both foreign and our own—who have tortured.

    there comes a time when you put a guy who might know something into a room, then you go in the same room and do what needs to be done to get the required information.
    That's horrific. I can only say that I'm glad that you're not in charge of political and military policy.

    "A guy who might know something". Goodness. You even tacitly acknowledge the possibility of torturing the innocent.

    In any case, it's fair enough if you want to publicly make an argument that the United States of America should, as a matter of public policy, use torture on those considered or suspected of being enemies of the state. Go ahead and make that argument. But first, ditch the treaties and conventions prohibiting it. Amend the UCMJ.

    Don't try to pretend this is how things have always been. It's not.

  7. #57
    alanmolstad
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    ahh....that report given to Congress proved that not only does it work, one of the main gains from its use is that one story can be backed-up by others,

    So its not a case of a guy saying anything , rather over time and over different individuals you can verify a story.

    Thus the one thing the tree-huggers dont want us to know is now shown to be true.....

    it works....and works well...and has proved itself time and time again over the years to be the thing that will work when other forms of investigation prove to be useless.

  8. #58
    asdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    ahh....that report given to Congress proved that not only does it work, one of the main gains from its use is that one story can be backed-up by others

    I don't suppose you'd do me the courtesy of actually citing "that report given to Congress", would you?


    Please, if torture "has proved itself time and time again" to be a more effective means of intelligence-gathering, then by all means cite some. Cite one. (Remember, it doesn't count if the torture victim was cooperative with interrogators before the torture begins, and it doesn't count if the torture occurs prior to attempting traditional interrogation.)


    I seem to have forgotten that your preferred method of discourse is repeating yourself, without any citation or evidence or indication that you've read—let alone are making any attempt to respond to—the material above.
    Last edited by asdf; 02-13-2014 at 09:08 AM.

  9. #59
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdf View Post
    I don't suppose you'd do me the courtesy of actually citing "that report given to Congress", would you?

    I guess i could GOOGLE it for you.
    But I remember the report was all in the news about a year or so ago.
    The report was due to the reports about water-Boarding that we carried out in the effort to fight the wars and most importantly , to get Osama bin Laden.

    getting bin Laden was behind the main push and the main reason this topic is in the news.

    Apparently a lot of tree-huggers feel that "If we were just polite, and asked nicely" that the guys who knew where bin Laden was would whisper that location .....perhaps in exchange for ice cream?

    The report's findings were that water-boarding actually worked...and worked well,,,and was very useful in the war effort and saved many American lives.



    In the real world there are times when you have to go into a room with a guy who knows something you need to know, and do whatever it takes to walk out of that room with the information.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-13-2014 at 09:21 AM.

  10. #60
    alanmolstad
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    the first hit on google...

    http://www.startribune.com/121089124.html

  11. #61
    alanmolstad
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    What we learn is that the use of stress to loosen a tongue works.
    But it does not always work.
    And it does not always get a person to tell the truth.

    However sometimes if a person under great stress is still able to tell a lie, and you know it's a lie...then this points out that there has got to be a very good reason why a person would tell such a lie.

    We dont like to think about what is going on in Egypt and North Korea right now, but the results are very clear.

    North Korea has seen within the last year a purge due to a failed CIA effort to overthrow the current leadership (and put in place some other members of the Korean ruling family) this purge is the direct result of a lot of stress used against some of the highest members of the North Korean military.....

    Also in Egypt (with the helping hand and financing of the CIA) they are using such stress in the weeding out members of the former elected party that were a threat to our interests and to our Egyptian military friends that we are very closely connected to.

    Now a lot of people in our American/liberal leadership want us to think that the use of stress on people is not that useful, but the people that are tasked with the defense of this country know that it's a useful tool to have, and at times gives you results that you cant match by any other means.



    It does not always work.

    But over the history of this world it has shown more than enough times to have worked well enough to always keep around in case its needed.

    It's like I said, - there are times in history where you have a guy in a room that knows something important, and you have to be able to go into that room with him and do whatever is necessary to be able to walk out of the room later with the information.

  12. #62
    asdf
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    Thank you. I appreciate your pointing out which "report given to Congress" you were talking about—since there have been quite a few, such as that by the Red Cross, Human Rights Watch, the Senate Armed Services Committee, the ​Cons***ution Project, and others.

    But that "news" you cited is almost three years old, and does not demonstrate what you seem to think it does.

    A few thoughts, in response:
    1. The article you cited was by Adam Goldman at the AP. Here's what he reported one day later:

    "[Khalid Shaikh] Mohammed did not reveal the names [the nicknames of several of bin Laden's couriers] while being subjected to the simulated drowning technique known as waterboarding, former officials said. He identified them many months later under standard interrogation, they said, leaving it once again up for debate as to whether the harsh technique was a valuable tool or an unnecessarily violent tactic."

    2. At least you're admitting that waterboarding is torture. I do appreciate the eschewing of euphemism. Waterboarding is a controlled drowning experience, developed by the Spanish Inquisition, utilized by the Gestapo and the Khmer Rouge, among others, and internationally recognized and condemned as a torture technique throughout history. During WWII, the U.S. hanged Japanese troops who engaged in waterboarding.

    Apparently a lot of tree-huggers feel that "If we were just polite, and asked nicely" that the guys who knew where bin Laden was would whisper that location .....perhaps in exchange for ice cream?
    3. Nevermind the fact that KSM did, in fact, reveal what he knew under standard interrogation and not under torture. Nevermind that it was only by ***uming that KSM lie under torture that interrogators were able to get the truth from him, several months later. Nevermind that he explicitly admitted to providing false information, which he had supposed the interrogators wanted to hear, in order to stop the torture. Nevermind the testimony of those who have actually conducted interrogations honorably and effectively. You have some good jokes about "tree-huggers" to deploy, and you're not going to let silly things like facts get in the way.

  13. #63
    alanmolstad
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    yes, torture works, and works like a charm.
    Torture is the reason we know where to send in the drones.
    It is of information gained via stress we place on people.
    .

    Ever wonder why the military in Egypt was able to overthrow their own elected government and no one at the White House said a word?
    Ever wonder why President Obama keeps talking about sending aid to the rebels in Syria, but not a word about sending in aid to reestablish civilian rule in Egypt?

    Its because Obama and the CIA have a long history of hiring military contractors out of Egypt to get information out of people...
    We catch people in Afghanistan, fly them to Egypt.....and from there they seem to disappear...later parts of them get dumped into a ditch outside an Estonian village.

    And next week there is a whole new list of targets in Pakistan for the drones to go after...

    So not only does torture work well at finding out unknown things, it works best when you already know the truth and just need to see how far some people will go to hide a truth you already know.

    The length people go to to maintain a lie under stress shows you the depth they must think their information has...
    The lies people tell under stress show you many things.....

    Thats why the data that suggests that "No secrets were learned" is a child's way of thinking about this issue. because most of the time you are not putting stress on people to learn a secret at all....You are just confirming what you already know to be true.

    You also learn many things by seeing how far people will go to maintain a cover story.

    I know that if my son was going to be sent in to a hostile area of the world, that first they should place everyone they have caught under a lot of stress, just to make sure the planners of my son's mission know what is to be expected.
    So it's not that you are looking for new information at all.
    You just are making sure there is nothing else to know.
    You may not learn a single new thing after hours and hours of placeing stress on people....but that's fine.....if there was truly nothing to find out, no secret to learn, then thats also another fact that helps guide the mission planners.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 02-15-2014 at 07:55 PM.

  14. #64
    asdf
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    You are welcome to regard the testimony of those actually involved in interrogations to be "a child's way of thinking". You may be surprised to discover that I regard their account to hold more weight than some random guy on the internet's opinion.



    You claim that if your son were to be headed to a hostile area, presumably in a military context, you'd want "everyone" around to be tortured. You don't mention whether you'd like him to be tortured by the other side if he were captured as a POW. Would you denounce your son's torture? Would you have any grounds to denounce it?

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