Chromosones. Where did they come from?

[MacG]

Seebok,

Greetings. I am wondering if you'd take a shot at these questions:

Where did Adam get his chromosones?

Because Eve was taken out of Adam did he have only 46 or 92?

Blessings,

MacG

[seebok]

Originally Posted by MacG

Seebok,

Greetings. I am wondering if you'd take a shot at these questions:

Where did Adam get his chromosones?

Because Eve was taken out of Adam did he have only 46 or 92?

Blessings,

MacG

Hi MacG

If you are able to read the creation account literally, then Adam got all 46 of his chromosomes directly from God.

Your question about Adam having 46 or 92 chromosomes really makes no genetic sense. Since males are xy and females xx, theoretically a female (i.e., Eve) could be created from two 23 chromosome x "bundles" from a male, no extra chromosomes needed.

Now this is important, you can't get xy (male) from xx (female), no matter how you p**** it. So in the case of Christ's conception, the "y" clearly came from somewhere external to Mary. According to Luke, that candidate would be the Father.

I hope this primer has helped you.

Best

s.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by seebok

Hi MacG

If you are able to read the creation account literally, then Adam got all 46 of his chromosomes directly from God.

Your question about Adam having 46 or 92 chromosomes really makes no genetic sense. Since males are xy and females xx, theoretically a female (i.e., Eve) could be created from two 23 chromosome x "bundles" from a male, no extra chromosomes needed.

Now this is important, you can't get xy (male) from xx (female), no matter how you p**** it. So in the case of Christ's conception, the "y" clearly came from somewhere external to Mary. According to Luke, that candidate would be the Father.

I hope this primer has helped you.

Best

s.

According to Luke then, the Father provided the "y" (though Luke says it was the Holy Spirit, you seem to know bettter, stupid Luke.). It seems to me in the past that you have reputiated the Mormon publications that teach physical union as we humans have (again you seem to have more discernment than various Mormon Apostles, Prophets and Presidents ), so the "primer" may be just too basline level knowledge for me. Do you have more information to offer to clear this up? How did the Father provide the extra chromosones?

Thanks,

MacG

[nrajeff]

Mac, I don't know what your church has taught you regarding the Bible's teachings on this issue, but LDS believe that the Bible does not quote Jesus as stating that His Father is the Holy Spirit--it has Jesus saying that His Father is the Person of the Father. So LDS believe that Jesus' father is the Person of the Father. Based on what the Bible says, LDS don't believe that the Holy Spirit is the source of Jesus' chromosomes, 'cause otherwise Jesus would have said THAT was His Father in Heaven.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

So LDS believe that Jesus' father is the Person of the Father.

NRAjeff,

I really do not want to get too far off the chromosome path but since you bring it up,

1) Who is the the father of Jesus?

2) How did he get Jesus his chromosones?

Blessings,

MacG

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by MacG

NRAjeff,
I really do not want to get too far off the chromosome path but since you bring it up,
1) Who is the the father of Jesus?

---The Person of the Father, according to the New Testament.

2) How did he get Jesus his chromosones?

---The Bible doesn't give us many details on HOW it happened--the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, whatever that means, and the next thing you know, Mary is pregnant and her baby's father is the Person Jesus would later call "My Father in Heaven." Even thought the details on HOW it happened are few, and vague, one thing that seems clear is WHO Jesus' Father is. And it ain't the Holy Ghost.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---The Person of the Father, according to the New Testament.



---The Bible doesn't give us many details on HOW it happened--the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, whatever that means, and the next thing you know, Mary is pregnant and her baby's father is the Person Jesus would later call "My Father in Heaven." Even thought the details on HOW it happened are few, and vague, one thing that seems clear is WHO Jesus' Father is. And it ain't the Holy Ghost.

How come no Mormon has admitted to the LDS belief that God and Mother God "procreated" Jesus, Satan and all of us as "spirit siblings" in the preexistence?

Kinda seems like you're hiding the details.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Russ

How come no Mormon has admitted to the LDS belief that God and Mother God "procreated" Jesus, Satan and all of us as "spirit siblings" in the preexistence?

--I can admit that, no problem. Heck our OFFICIAL PROCLAMATION says it, and we're hardly trying to suppress that document. Do yer homework, Russ, so that you can teach your little cl*** with a semblance of credibility. But how is that on-topic with the Nativity? In case you are confused (I know it's a remote possibility), the Nativity didn't take place in the preexistence. Are you trying to hide the details of how you believe that The Holy Spirit is the real father of Jesus?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

--I can admit that, no problem. Heck our OFFICIAL PROCLAMATION says it, and we're hardly trying to suppress that document. Do yer homework, Russ, so that you can teach your little cl*** with a semblance of credibility. But how is that on-topic with the Nativity? In case you are confused (I know it's a remote possibility), the Nativity didn't take place in the preexistence. Are you trying to hide the details of how you believe that The Holy Spirit is the real father of Jesus?

Oh, sorry. I see now that I used verbiage I shouldn't have. Rather than "why is no Mormon admitting" to the LDS concept of God, Mother God, procreation of spirit children and Eternal Progression, what I meant to ask is "why is no Mormon" introducing it here in discussion as a core LDS belief for people to inspect and then accept or reject?

You never told me about Eternal Progression. Seebok never told me. The Mormon missionaries never told me. I never heard the whole LDS story from General Conference. My Mormon neighbors didn't tell me. I've visited Temple Square, the Lion House, the Beehive House, the Joseph Smith Memorial building and none of them told me.

I've done my homework, thank you!

Cl*** outline on Eternal Progression:

http://www.mormondoctrine.net/outlin...rogression.htm

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Russ

Oh, sorry. I see now that I used verbiage I shouldn't have.

--For the 678th time, in various ways. :)

Rather than "why is no Mormon admitting" to the LDS concept of God, Mother God, procreation of spirit children and Eternal Progression, what I meant to ask is "why is no Mormon" introducing it here in discussion as a core LDS belief for people to inspect and then accept or reject?

--How is that question on-topic for this thread? Spirit children don't have DNA, Russ. It takes a corporeal, organic, mortal body before DNA comes into the picture.

You never told me about Eternal Progression.

--Need a Waaahmbulance? In any event, if you'd bothered to go to LDS.ORG or read Gospel Principles or ask the missionaries "In what way am I a child of the Father?" you should have been able to learn that LDS believe that all humans are spiritual offspring of God and have the potential to grow up to be like their Father if they want to be that obedient and submissive to Him. Or you could have read the Bible and gotten the same thing if you were sharp enough.

I've done my homework, thank you!

---I give you a D in the reading-comprehension dept.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

--For the 678th time, in various ways. :)



--How is that question on-topic for this thread? Spirit children don't have DNA, Russ. It takes a corporeal, organic, mortal body before DNA comes into the picture.



--Need a Waaahmbulance? In any event, if you'd bothered to go to LDS.ORG or read Gospel Principles or ask the missionaries "In what way am I a child of the Father?" you should have been able to learn that LDS believe that all humans are spiritual offspring of God and have the potential to grow up to be like their Father if they want to be that obedient and submissive to Him. Or you could have read the Bible and gotten the same thing if you were sharp enough.



---I give you a D in the reading-comprehension dept.

"if you'd bothered to go to LDS.ORG or read Gospel Principles or ask the missionaries...."

Let me see if I understand this.

You're claiming that since people aren't asking the right questions then it's their own fault for not knowing about the LDS concept of God, Mother God, procreation of Jesus and Satan as brothers, Mormon men as Gods over their own planets, etc.

If I have you right, then the LDS critics' ***ertion that Mormonism is a Gnostic, secret religion is air-tight.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Russ

"if you'd bothered to go to LDS.ORG or read Gospel Principles or ask the missionaries...."

Let me see if I understand this.

You're claiming that since people aren't asking the right questions then it's their own fault for not knowing about the LDS concept of God, Mother God, procreation of Jesus and Satan as brothers, Mormon men as Gods over their own planets, etc.

If I have you right, then the LDS critics' ***ertion that Mormonism is a Gnostic, secret religion is air-tight.

it appears you are saying people should just be told everything without inquiry. As my life is, I learn by asking the right questions. If I ask how does a tree grow, and someone responds, "by watering it". And I leave it at that, then its my own fault for not asking more, or looking more into it. I don't blame the responder for my ignorance. But alas, that is what Russ and his partners do. Says Russ, "If someone who is LDS does not explain in every detail how I was born I will hold them accountable for my ignorance. And their religion is Gnostic, because Gnosticism was seen by many back in the day as bad, and there was some element of secrecy, or hidden knowledge, and LDS are Gnostic because they believe things that I don't know about or understand. And as long as I say that people will know I think they are heretics because we're taught in church all gnostics and all their ideas were inspired by the devil. They must have been because that's what my pastor said. <quietly to himself> I don't know how to think for myself. I hope someone holds my hand and leads me in the right direction.

love,
stem

[Russ]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

it appears you are saying people should just be told everything without inquiry.

People should know about the things which are the crux of the LDS religion, that the LDS religion believes that God was once a man on another planet who grew to be a God by obedience to LDS laws, ordinances and principles.

That the LDS religion would have them believe that they too can become Gods over their own created planets and that said planets will be populated by their spirit children having been "procreated" with celestial, polygamous wives.

That the LDS religion will require marriage before one is considered worthy to receive eternal life.

That's the short list.

Literally several thousand who have left the LDS church have complained that there were things they later found out about the LDS religion that if they had known such things before they joined that they most likely would not have joined the LDS church. Read ex-mormon.org

Genuine Christianity has nothing to hide.

As my life is, I learn by asking the right questions. If I ask how does a tree grow, and someone responds, "by watering it". And I leave it at that, then its my own fault for not asking more, or looking more into it. I don't blame the responder for my ignorance. But alas, that is what Russ and his partners do. Says Russ, "If someone who is LDS does not explain in every detail how I was born I will hold them accountable for my ignorance. And their religion is Gnostic, because Gnosticism was seen by many back in the day as bad, and there was some element of secrecy, or hidden knowledge, and LDS are Gnostic because they believe things that I don't know about or understand. And as long as I say that people will know I think they are heretics because we're taught in church all gnostics and all their ideas were inspired by the devil. They must have been because that's what my pastor said. <quietly to himself> I don't know how to think for myself. I hope someone holds my hand and leads me in the right direction.

You've quoted me as writing or saying something that I never did.

What the LDS church does, stem, is operate under the guise of "milk before the meat." Many cults do this. They reveal their core doctrines here a little, there a little, as they watch the student grow in allegiance, understanding and "faith," which is why new LDS members are only allowed to enter the LDS temple after one full year after joining the LDS religion. They have to be properly indoctrinated in LDS theology before they receive their sacred new name and be shown the sacred tokens (secret handshakes.)

Many LDS converts did not know for years after they joined the LDS church that Joseph Smith married 14 year old girls and other men's wives while they were still married to their husbands. Lyndon Lamborn is such a man. He quit after finding out many of the things the LDS church didn't tell him about. It bothered him that LDS church history was being white-washed. You may listen to it in his own words here: http://video.google.com/videosearch?...num=4&ct=***le

Other ex-Mormons I've known or read about report being quite disgruntled to find out that Smith's prophecies didn't come to p*** which reveals Smith for the false prophet that he is.

Other ex-Mormons I've known or read about report they were disheartened to find out that the Book of Abraham is proven fraudulent. They did not know of the plethora of evidence against the BoA. They did not know because the LDS church didn't let them know.

When these people started asking the right questions, they felt duped.

That's their story.

[seebok]

Originally Posted by Russ

Genuine Christianity has nothing to hide.

Perhaps the biggest secret is that you believe God's omnipotence and sovereignty mean Christ's crucifixion, as a means to atone, was unnecessary. You believe God murdered His son for nothing.

Another of your secrets says that God was lying when He told his children to love, serve, and obey. You've told us over and over again He does not want this.

The fact that you worship the Bible and not God who commissioned the Bible is also troubling.

Your religion is about "getting" as opposed to "giving". Actually, I'm sure selfish people like this aspect.

Your religion is free-for-all the self-anointed, self appointed, no-accountability set.

And lastly, your religion was founded by the spiritual father of the holocaust and perpetuated by the sanctioning of the slave trade and KKK.

The list of things Evans hide from their converts is endless.

I could never be an Evan

best

s.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by seebok

Perhaps the biggest secret is that you believe God's omnipotence and sovereignty mean Christ's crucifixion, as a means to atone, was unnecessary. You believe God murdered His son for nothing.

Another of your secrets says that God was lying when He told his children to love, serve, and obey. You've told us over and over again He does not want this.

The fact that you worship the Bible and not God who commissioned the Bible is also troubling.

Your religion is about "getting" as opposed to "giving". Actually, I'm sure selfish people like this aspect.

Your religion is free-for-all the self-anointed, self appointed, no-accountability set.

And lastly, your religion was founded by the spiritual father of the holocaust and perpetuated by the sanctioning of the slave trade and KKK.

The list of things Evans hide from their converts is endless.

I could never be an Evan

best

s.

The thing is Seebok, that one can be an Evangelical Christian today and may not be tied to those sects (or any sect for that matter) that practiced such things, they just read the Bible and believe it so much that they become disciples of the risen Lord. But those who believe the testimony of JS have chosen to belong to a sect that set out to "restore" Christianity from it's fallen glory from it's outset, from it's higher moral plane and words of revelation from it's celestial plane above the terrestrial plane, condemned American Africans even before they were born and can therefore not escape that revelatory horrid past. When revelation comes from God how can it be so tainted?

"Your religion is about "getting" as opposed to "giving". Actually, I'm sure selfish people like this aspect."

That's a hoot. I seem to remember a thread where you were relieved that I believed that that my good works will be rewarded and that I wasn't working for nothing. We work and will be rewarded as the God who knows no other Gods sees fit after the fire burns away the wood, hay and stubble - we work knowing that we will not become something that God knows not.

Blessings,

MacG

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by MacG

The thing is Seebok, that one can be an Evangelical Christian today and may not be tied to those sects (or any sect for that matter) that practiced such things, they just read the Bible and believe it so much that they become disciples of the risen Lord. But those who believe the testimony of JS have chosen to belong to a sect that set out to "restore" Christianity from it's fallen glory from it's outset, from it's higher moral plane and words of revelation from it's celestial plane above the terrestrial plane, condemned American Africans even before they were born and can therefore not escape that revelatory horrid past. When revelation comes from God how can it be so tainted?

---That is an interesting idea, Mac: That a person can be a Reformationist without subscribing to the foundation laid by the Reformers. When Joseph Smith stated that mainstream Christendom had gone astray, this was not the first time someone had made that claim. Christians like Roger Williams and John Wesley and Thomas Muntzer and Sebastian Franck had said the same thing way before Smith was even born. So in a way, Smith was just another in a long line of Reformers. As for the idea that one can't just read the Book of Mormon and believe it so much that they become disciples of the risen Lord: I think it can be done, and has been done by some.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---That is an interesting idea, Mac: That a person can be a Reformationist without subscribing to the foundation laid by the Reformers. When Joseph Smith stated that mainstream Christendom had gone astray, this was not the first time someone had made that claim. Christians like Roger Williams and John Wesley and Thomas Muntzer and Sebastian Franck had said the same thing way before Smith was even born. So in a way, Smith was just another in a long line of Reformers. As for the idea that one can't just read the Book of Mormon and believe it so much that they become disciples of the risen Lord: I think it can be done, and has been done by some.

Jeff,

Nice try. You have been around long enough to know that those other "reformers" all held to the recognized "essential" base christian doctrines. JS and subsequent presidents changed several those doctrines cleverly using the same terms like Holy Trinity. If you are in need of a refresher on what the essentials are from this side of the fence erected by JS, look up Dr. Maritn's book "Essential Christianity".

Hey is Muentzer sportin' dreds in the attached .jpg?

Blessings,

MacG

[nrajeff]

Thanks for the reply, Mac.

Originally Posted by MacG

Jeff,Nice try. You have been around long enough to know that those other "reformers" all held to the recognized "essential" base christian doctrines. JS and subsequent presidents changed several those doctrines cleverly using the same terms like Holy Trinity. ...

----Suppose a Reformer had said the following:

Since the time of Constantine, The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine His Church, could hardly find faith upon the earth. This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church…The Christians were turned heathens again, and earth only had a dead form left.

Would you think that Reformer was sticking to the essentials?

[MacG]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Thanks for the reply, Mac.


----Suppose a Reformer had said the following:

Since the time of Constantine, The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine His Church, could hardly find faith upon the earth. This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church…The Christians were turned heathens again, and earth only had a dead form left.

Would you think that Reformer was sticking to the essentials?

Jeff,

This seems like a non-sequitur so I am not sure where you are going with it.

However the author shows his judgement against Christianity as a whole "...from Constantine to his present time..." in the first line by declaring that the "...Christians had no more the the Spirit of Christ than the OTHER heathens." Perhaps if he had said "...than the heathens rather than "...the OTHER heathens" he would not have given away his judgement regarding ALL Christians. The author has already equated Christians with heathens and kneaded them into the same lump of dough before he penned that line. This is the foundation to starting your own sect though, declare all others corrupt.
As to whether this author held to the "essentials" I cannot tell based on his Holiness postion alone. Most denominations expect a certain level of Holiness. To some it is a matter if you can consume alcohol in moderation or not at all. Perhaps it is whether you can dance of not. Some denominations have so many rules that they just sit and be right For contrast, one denomination has no problem with active ****sexuality and yet claims some level of Holiness. Many of the people in these groups get their status in their group by negation. Recognition for what they don't do is more important than what they do do.

So the quote contains no information whether He (presumably) believes even one of the "essential " doctrines.

Get Martin's book on Amazon for a few bucks and you tell me if your author follows those essentials.

Blessings,

MacG

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by MacG

Jeff,This seems like a non-sequitur so I am not sure where you are going with it.

--I am just exploring the boundaries to Christianity. Apparently, if a person says things that go outside those boundaries--whatever those boundaries are--the person is no longer a Christian or something. Many of today's Reformationsts are unaware of statements the Reformers made--statements that, if Joe Smith had been the one making them, would result in his being branded a non-Christian cultist.

The author has already equated Christians with heathens and kneaded them into the same lump of dough before he penned that line. This is the foundation to starting your own sect though, declare all others corrupt.

--I get your point. Jesus, after preaching His gospel, declared all other systems of religion and worship essentially corrupt, and his words were not welcomed by many folks.

As to whether this author held to the "essentials" I cannot tell based on his Holiness postion alone. Most denominations expect a certain level of Holiness.

---I think the Reformer in question (John Wesley, if memory serves) was claiming that Christendom in general had abandoned many true doctrines and replaced them with false ones, and the result of that "apostasy" was a drastic reduction in the gifts of the Spirit that are supposed to accompany true Christianity. And I think he was urging Christians to "reform" their religion, and return to the true doctrines and true worship that the church had back in the Antenicene--or at least the Apostolic--Era

[MacG]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

--I am just exploring the boundaries to Christianity. Apparently, if a person says things that go outside those boundaries--whatever those boundaries are--the person is no longer a Christian or something. Many of today's Reformationsts are unaware of statements the Reformers made--statements that, if Joe Smith had been the one making them, would result in his being branded a non-Christian cultist.


--I get your point. Jesus, after preaching His gospel, declared all other systems of religion and worship essentially corrupt, and his words were not welcomed by many folks.



---I think the Reformer in question (John Wesley, if memory serves) was claiming that Christendom in general had abandoned many true doctrines and replaced them with false ones, and the result of that "apostasy" was a drastic reduction in the gifts of the Spirit that are supposed to accompany true Christianity. And I think he was urging Christians to "reform" their religion, and return to the true doctrines and true worship that the church had back in the Antenicene--or at least the Apostolic--Era

Jeff,

It is clear that Wesley had the essentials and it is apparant that he was still a sinner needing the grace of God. So did the other reformers raging against the machine. It is clear then it is not the essentials that they were disagreeing about. JS did. For us there is but One God, who knows of no other Gods that is creator of all that has been made. JS and following clearly went out of bounds of even the reformers.

Apparently, if a person says things that go outside those boundaries--whatever those boundaries are--the person is no longer a Christian or something.

Or perhaps never was, it was Jesus who warned us to be sure about being right about who He was or we would be lost in ours sins. Many who began to follow Him left after a time of His teaching proved to be too radical from them. He was and is the one and only God-man. Is God wrong when He declares in IS 45:
Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a (H)Savior;
There is none except Me.
Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.

The reformers did not deny this. The Jews held to this and the Jewist of Jews (Jesus) said that Before Abarmham was I AM taking the divine name the One God used for himself in Exodus. The Jews knew that was what He was doing for they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy and said as much "...by making God your very own Father, making yourself equal with God.". This is something He did not deny then (how could He it was an hysterical mob), but even later He never tried to clear up the "misunderstanding" and eventually was crucified for it. This is why JS is considered outside the pale of Christianity. You may not be, however.

Blessings,

MacG

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by MacG

Jeff, It is clear that Wesley had the essentials and it is apparant that he was still a sinner needing the grace of God.

--Are you saying that his belief that all of Christendom had gone horribly astray is no indication that he himself had gone horribly astray? And are you saying that this particular belief (that all of Christendom had gone horribly astray) only shows that he was a sinner? In other words, that it was a sin for him to believe what he believed?

So did the other reformers raging against the machine.

--Isn't it possible to describe Joe Smith as another dude raging against the machine? And maybe he deserves more slack than earlier Reformers, because he claimed that he was just repeating what Jesus had told him. In the case of his predecessors, no such claim--they either stated what they believed the state of affairs was and what needed to be done to fix things, or perhaps they claimed at most some inspiration in that regard. Smith, on the other hand, was basically saying "The Lord directly and unmistakably told me this how things are and what needs to be done." That might be less execrable a "sin" than say, Wesley's "sin" since Smith only claimed to be relaying God's messages--perhaps a reminder to not shoot the messenger is in order.

The reformers did not deny this. The Jews held to this and the Jewist of Jews (Jesus) said that Before Abarmham was I AM taking the divine name the One God used for himself in Exodus.

--Smith never said that p***age was wrong.

The Jews knew that was what He was doing for they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy and said as much "...by making God your very own Father, making yourself equal with God." This is something He did not deny then (how could He it was an hysterical mob), but even later He never tried to clear up the "misunderstanding" and eventually was crucified for it.

---I think that is a good summation of that account.

This is why JS is considered outside the pale of Christianity. You may not be, however.

--Thanks for the vote of confidence, Mac, but if Smith was outside the pale on this issue, then I think I am, too. IMO, the day will come when Smith's theological statements will be widely regarded as visionary and correct.

[MacG]

Jeff,

Why did you p**** all of this:

"It is clear then it is not the essentials that they were disagreeing about. JS did. For us there is but One God, who knows of no other Gods that is creator of all that has been made. JS and following clearly went out of bounds of even the reformers."

"...it was Jesus who warned us to be sure about being right about who He was or we would be lost in ours sins. Many who began to follow Him left after a time of His teaching proved to be too radical from them. He was and is the one and only God-man. Is God wrong when He declares in IS 45:
Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a (H)Savior;
There is none except Me.
Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other."

This IS a defining difference between what Jesus taught and JS taught which is why I said that JS was out of the pale.

Maybe initially JS said there was one God but it changed a few years later. This is the danger in Paul is worried about when he issued caution about testing the spirits for not every spirit of of God. Even if an Angel presents a different gospel (Moroni) than what what was first preached let that Angel be anathama. Be sure, my friend, that the Jesus you follow matches the self described Jesus. Who thought in not robbery to be considered equal with God, would you consider Lucifer as God's equal?

Blessings,

MacG

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by MacG

"...it was Jesus who warned us to be sure about being right about who He was or we would be lost in ours sins. Many who began to follow Him left after a time of His teaching proved to be too radical from them.

---I don't disagree with that: Many Christians did rebel against Jesus' teachings, for various reasons. It's called apostasia.

This IS a defining difference between what Jesus taught and JS taught which is why I said that JS was out of the pale.

---IMO, there is a huge difference between what mainstream Christendom ended up teaching, and what Jesus taught. That might be what Protestant clergyman H.E. Fos**** had in mind when he said that Christendom had gone so far astray from Jesus' original teachings, that Jesus, looking at the state of modern Christendom, would wonder if He Himself were a Christian.

Maybe initially JS said there was one God but it changed a few years later. This is the danger in Paul is worried about when he issued caution about testing the spirits for not every spirit of of God.

--Wasn't it Paul himself who said that even though there are many gods, to us there is only one God (the Father), and there is only one Lord (Jesus)?
I think JS would agree with Paul.

Be sure, my friend, that the Jesus you follow matches the self described Jesus.

---I think both you and I follow that Jesus.When He returns, both of us will say "THAT is the Jesus I believe in and have been trying to follow."

[MacG]

"He was and is the one and only God-man. Is God wrong when He declares in IS 45:
Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other."

And IS 44
6"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.
7'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it;
Yes, let him recount it to Me in order,
From the time that I established the ancient nation.
And let them declare to them the things that are coming
And the events that are going to take place.
8'Do not tremble and do not be afraid;
Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And you are My witnesses
Is there any God besides Me,
Or is there any other Rock?
I know of none.'"
Rev 1:18
Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,

18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

---IMO, there is a huge difference between what mainstream Christendom ended up teaching, and what Jesus taught. That might be what Protestant clergyman H.E. Fos**** had in mind when he said that Christendom had gone so far astray from Jesus' original teachings, that Jesus, looking at the state of modern Christendom, would wonder if He Himself were a Christian.

While there is alot of weirdness in the church but as a whole there is agreement on the essentials and as I have heard liberty in the non essentials. Just read through what Jesus has to say to the 7 churches of Asia in the Revelation of Jesus Christ to see what He thinks about some of the nonsense.

--Wasn't it Paul himself who said that even though there are many gods, to us there is only one God (the Father), and there is only one Lord (Jesus)?
I think JS would agree with Paul.

The verse before that which you paraphrase (not necessarily a bad thing) is:
"Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one."

He is talking to a polytheistic people, acknowledges said belief and that despite their beliefs, from the Christian point of view, there is but one God.

---I think both you and I follow that Jesus.When He returns, both of us will say "THAT is the Jesus I believe in and have been trying to follow."

The Jesus that I follow is of IS 44, 45 above and Revelation 1 the Alpha and Omega who once was alive then dead and alive again forevermore and the monotheistic Jesus that Paul preached to the polytheistic Corinthians, which one do you follow?

Blessings and respect,

MacG