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Thread: What hat do you wear?

  1. #1

  2. #2
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Greetings Trig,
    Nicely written satire, but isn't an atheistic hat still a hat?

  3. #3
    TRiG
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    No. It isn't. This is, in fact, the point.

    TRiG.

  4. #4
    alanmolstad
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    I dont understand the point?

  5. #5
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I dont understand the point?
    I don't either Alan. Those in the article's comment line who think they did understand comes off as a little sketchy. Look at these three:

    #4 But did they wear their hats to chur…oh, ha ha I see what you did there. Very nicely done, sir!

    #9 Yep. The religious are as mad as hatters.

    #12 Oh, I get it. You’re talking about religion.A good alternate ending to your parable could be your realization of the Catholic Church’s supreme providence over so much of Earth, and how the Catholic Church’s leader is identified by a large pointy hat

    If there is a crystal clear revelation the best one I could ever hope to achieve would be under #3 Just how does these guys get away with consistent and deliberate "dishonored" head-covered Church prayer(I Cor 11:4) ? Got me.

  6. #6
    alanmolstad
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    I Cor 11:4
    Is talking about hair.

    The length of hair...

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    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    I also didn't know this, that it appears to be a debated matter. You have a legitimate claim. We can see the stage of this being set between a split of treatments the translations have given with such as “has something on his head”, or others flowing the use of word meaning right into the next verses referencing “hair”, specifically.

    While I count that a possibility, I am not wholly convinced it is a universal one. Vs 14’s “long hair” is interrupted by verse six if shaved, cover it. Still, whether or not a man has a certain length of hair sounds as it might be the one and only thing discussed, to reveal the image of God.

    The scholars and theologians handling the Greek, they are all over the place. As Dr. Martin used to say they are back in their “ivory towers” unable to agree since it may affect their status.

    http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_corinthians/11-4.htm

  8. #8
    alanmolstad
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    In my experience there are two verses in the Bible that some people seem to always take out of context and quote alone, because when they do so it opens a door to strange ideas that have no real support in all the other parts of the bible.

    I Cor 11:4 is one such verse.
    There are some people within and without of the christian church that have latched on to this verse and used it, twisted it in a variety of ways to serve as the support for their own person views on different matters.
    The verse alone , taken out of it's context, is easy to misuse, or just misunderstand.

    But if we just read the verse in full context and look at the other nice little verses all around it that are talking about the very same idea, then we will come away from this with a lot less need to support wild ideas that are not talked about in other parts of the Bible.

    The Bible was just talking about hair in this section.
    The Bible talks about "covered' and "uncovered" heads of people.
    The Bible tells us what this 'covering" is.....it does this when it clearly tells us that "long hair" was given to the girls as their head covering.
    If we take this understanding back to all the other verses in this section of the text we dont really have anything weird to deal with at all.
    Long hair = covering


    Its that simple.

  9. #9
    alanmolstad
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    and....the other verse that some people tend to lift out of it's context all the time to teach weird ideas?

    Genesis 6:4

  10. #10
    Saxon
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    1 Corinthians 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

    You seem to be off when you think that the whole thing is about heads with hair. You need to take into consideration 1 Corinthians 11:3 before you conclude that it is all about hair covering a head.

    1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

    I do not think that the covering and uncovering of these heads is hair and hats. Read the section over knowing who the heads that are being discussed are and tell me if it is as simple as long hair and hats.

  11. #11
    alanmolstad
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    It's just the hair


    It even tells us that the covering is hair .

    But the reason for the hair length issue is to show respect

    The wife shows respect to her husband by having long hair.
    The man shows respect to god by having shorter hair

  12. #12
    alanmolstad
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    So the point is to show correct respect to both your husband and to god in the manner of your outwards appearance.
    This is so no one can bring forth a charge against the church for teaching bad morals and poor respect.

  13. #13
    alanmolstad
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    So when they looked the style of hair of these people it sent a clear statement.
    Look at a girls hair and you see the role her husband has in her life.
    Look at the appearance of a man and you can see the role god has in his life just as you can look at christ and see the role god has in his life

    The hair length of the girl displayed the husband or father.
    in other words the hair of the girl showed the husband...hair and her husband are connected...are the same

  14. #14
    Saxon
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    What!!! Where did you get this from! Book Chapter and Verse.

  15. #15
    alanmolstad
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    1 Corinthians 11:2
    "I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I p***ed them on to you."

    This verse lets us know that what we are dealing with is a "tradition" of their culture.
    This means that you cant hold this section to be point-by-point still as relevant as it was, (given that this is a different age with different traditions ) but general principles that are behind the tradition should still be worth our study.


    1 Corinthians 11:15
    "For long hair is given to her as a covering."

    So now we know from this verse what this "covering" is that we have been looking at.
    Its "long hair" for the girls, and thereby shorter hair for the guys.

    This point is confirmed at -
    1 Corinthians 11:14
    "Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him,"

    Thus we now understand that the coverings we are dealing with are clearly "long hair" for girls and short hair for the boys.
    and that means that when a girl is said to have her head "uncovered" it means to have short hair.
    And is also means that when the text says that a man has his head "covered" it is actually just talking about the man having hair that is too long according to the "tradition" held at the time.

    Now we look at this next question that Paul asks us to think about -
    1 Corinthians 11:13
    "Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?"

    The context tells us that the answer is clearly "no" to Paul's question.
    So this with the verses we have already quoted tells us that for girls the "head uncovered" is the same as "short hair"

    And this therefore also means that "head covered" in boys means "long hair'

    Now lets move to the next part.


    1 Corinthians 11:6

    For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head

    So now we have a good understanding of the context of "covering" and we understand what that is talking about...


    1 Corinthians 11:5
    "But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head"

    But who is this "head" that is being "dishonored" ???, because we are reading about it as if the "head" were a person that could be both honored or dishonored????

    That answer is seen at -
    1 Corinthians 11:3
    "and the head of the woman is man"




    So that now forms for us the context of what Paul is teaching, in that the "hair of the women is a direct connection to the man that is over her in authority....
    Look at her hair, and see the man...Just as you look at the man's hair and see Christ.

    But this is not the ending, for Paul still has to get to his point, and that is that when a girl is seen with long hair or short hair it is a direct refection of the 'man" in authority over her, be it her husband or before she married her father.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 01-05-2015 at 08:08 PM.

  16. #16
    Saxon
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    1 Corinthians 11:2
    I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I p***ed them on to you.

    This verse lets us know that what we are dealing with is a "tradition" of their couture.
    This means that you cant hold this section to be point-by-point still as relevant as it was, (given that this is a different age with different traditions ) but general principles that are behind the tradition should still be worth our study.
    The “traditions” that Paul was referring to is the gospel, the truth of God. If you care to re-read your own source, 1 Corinthians 11:2, you will see that he is referring to traditions that he had already p***ed on to the Corinthians. They were being praised for holding to the traditions just as Paul had p***ed them on to the Corinthians. What follows is something different. You are quick to read but not quick to pay attention to what the text you read is saying.

    Notice the change to something new;” But I would have you know”. Paul now goes on to identify the heads that he is going to speak about in the next few verses.

    1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

    What follows is Paul commenting on how the heads mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11:3 were to be treated with due respect. These heads are, quite clearly, not the ones that are stuck to the necks of human beings.

    If a person reads the text for what it says, then it is still as relevant now as it was when it was written.



    1 Corinthians 11:15
    "For long hair is given to her as a covering."

    So now we know from this verse what this "covering" is that we have been looking at.
    Its "long hair" for the girls, and thereby shorter hair for the guys.

    This point is confirmed at -
    1 Corinthians 11:14
    "Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him,"


    Now we look at this next question that Paul asks us to think about -
    1 Corinthians 11:13
    "Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?"

    The context tells us that the answer is clearly "no" to paul's question.
    So this with the verses we have already quoted tells us that for girls the "head uncovered" is the same as "short hair"

    And this therefore also means that "head covered" in boys means "long hair'

    Now lets move to the next part.

    1 Corinthians 11:6
    For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head

    So now we have a good understanding of the context of "covering" and we understand what that is talking about...
    If a woman of those days were to be seen in public with her hair cut off she would be ***umed a pros***ute or worse, thus bringing dishonor to her head, the man. Notice the words. They could be read like this:

    For if a woman does not cover her head, (man) she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head (body part) shaved, then she should cover her head (body part)

    In actuality Paul could care less if a woman had long hair or was as balled as a que-ball. Notice that is states “but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head”. It says “if” it is a disgrace. If it is not a disgrace, who cares?

    After all the hair comments Paul states that there is no such custom, neither the churches of God. Hair is not the issue.

    1 Corinthians 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.



    1 Corinthians 11:5
    "But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head"

    But who is this "had" that is being "dishonored" as if the "head" were a person that could be both honored or dishonored????

    That answer is seen at -
    1 Corinthians 11:3
    "and the head of the woman is man"
    That is exactly right and in context with 1 Corinthians 11:3.



    So that now forms for us the context of what Paul is teaching, in that the "hair of the women is a direct connection to the man that is over her in authority....
    Look at her hair, and see the man...Just as you look at the man's hair and see Christ.

    But this is not the ending, for paul still has to get to his point, and that is that when a girl is seen with long hair or short hair it is a direct refection of the 'man" in authority over her, be it her husband or before she married her father.

    This comes out in the verse -
    See 1 Corinthians 11:16, we have no such custom.

  17. #17
    alanmolstad
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    the hair length is the "tradition" that Paul is dealing with...as seen at 1 Corinthians 11:4 where it says - "Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head."

    Lets remember, This is not a teaching of Christ!
    Paul does not quote Jesus here, this is not a central part of the Christian faith.
    Rather this is a "tradition" that Paul knows will be very helpful to people and will bring a good reputation to people and to the church as a whole


    But to be honest with the people he was writing to, Paul shows that he understands that not everyone will agree with this "tradition"
    and as a way to toss a bit more weight behind his words, Paul here at 1 Corinthians 11:16 lists the only real "authority" he had to list.
    "If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God."

    See how Paul does not appeal to the words of Christ to support his view on the correct hair length?
    See how this is not , clearly not a matter that is tied to salvation or the message the Christ gave to us,

    All Paul has to support this tradition is for him to point to the other churches that follow this same tradition.
    Paul could not point to Christ's words to support the tradition.



    This is clearly a simple "tradition that Paul taught these people.
    And we have looked at this in the comments I have posted where I show how the "covering" was the hair, and how a man that has his head "covered" is actually just talking about a man who has his hair too long according to tradition.


    and this is why when Paul says that if a women does not cover her head she should have her head shaved!

    Why?.....cuz its the same idea being that her hair is too short!!!!!!!
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 01-05-2015 at 08:31 PM.

  18. #18
    alanmolstad
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    so in other words, Paul is building a case throughout the whole section here of "men looking like men, and women looking like women"


    and that is it....

  19. #19
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    "If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God."
    Kinda loosens up the issue for me. Which reminds me, hope the white stuff goes easy on you. You do still drive don't you?

  20. #20
    Saxon
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    so in other words, Paul is building a case throughout the whole section here of "men looking like men, and women looking like women"


    and that is it....
    There is nothing in the text that is even suggesting your notion. The case is clearly one of respecting your head in accordance with 1Corinthians 11:3.

    1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

  21. #21
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Again, I took it upon myself to see what or if there was a predominate scholarly opinion over this. What I originally thought was just a debate only over external influence – isn’t. Just over this one issue of covering in ch11v4, and only the v4 covering, I have read pages of my own hard-copy commentary and ref’d about a dozen online publications still on this one item of the “covering” in v4. Well, the news isn’t good.

    Alan, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that you are very much aware of how well your position stands in the field of universal opinion. I admire your determination. Even I who was willing to go along with you to a degree, if I found that your position was taking the hit of eighty or ninety percent, I could still remain there. Not now.

    Do you know of others who feel this way?

  22. #22
    alanmolstad
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    Michaells:

    My connection to this whole issue stems from a long time ago.
    I was a member of a church that had a very active adult Bible study program for us.
    I attended many, many cl***es where this section of the Bible was discussed.
    In about every case I can remember now, the thrust of the teachers understanding of this set of Bible verses was that this is all talking about the "veil".

    The truth is, I cant actually remember this part of the Bible being talked about from either the Church pulpit or the cl*** room teacher or home fellowship leader that the common understanding was that Paul here was talking about a girls "veil"

    because the understanding of the veil being the main subject talked about by Paul, I always next had to listen to whatever teacher was doing the teaching at the time, to how this could be made 'relevant" in our age where girls for the most part in the evangelical church do not wear a 'veil" while attending church.

    The problem I had was that when I simply read the verses I saw something different!

    I never once saw Paul talking about a cloth "veil", in fact I saw Paul going out of his way to make sure we understand that the covering on both the girls and the boys is their 'hair.
    It seemed simple enough to see from the Text.

    So when I had to sit and listen to Preachers and Teachers struggle so to twist things around and around in an effort to not make it seem like the Bible was clearly teaching that "Girls MUST wear a veil" I had to just shake my head.

    "That is just not what the verse is about." is all I kept thinking to myself.



    So from time to to time, (like here for example) I try to speak up and point out to my learned brothers in the church that the verse is simply talking about hair styles, and how it reflects on ourselves and the church in general.

    I really cant improve on what I have already posted on the topic as seen at post number #17 above. If after reading that post (#17) you have any questions or wish me to go over something I have written that seems unclear just let me know, for I will be happy to give it another shot.




    As I have talked about also above, this section of the bible, and the way people seem to struggle to explain it reminds me a lot of another part of the bible where people also struggle to explain away something that , actually the bible does not teach in the first place.

    That other part of the Bible deals with a verse in Genesis where the "Sons of God, and the Daughters of Men" marry and have children.

    I have grown up listening to teachers go on and on with how this was talking about "Angels"
    But the trouble is, when I read the parts of the Bible that come before that genesis 6 verse, I saw that the church teachers that believe it was talking about "angels" were taking the verse out of its context.

    When i read the same verse in it's correct context I noticed that it was talking about the same groups of people that it had already been talking about in Genesis 3,4,5....its the same people!

    There was no need to invent a way to get "Angels"into the story at all....


    Just as there is no need to deal with the "Veil" issue in our verse here....




    It's like...
    It's like when the Bible tells us that when a woman prays with her head uncovered its dishonors her head.
    We learn from the text that the "covering" of the girl is actually her "long hair"

    But what about this "head" we are talking about?
    Whats the "head"?

    Well some people teach that the "head' in this verse is talking about her skull, you know the thing sticking out of a person shirt.
    But that's not true at all !

    The Bible tells us clearly that the "head" of the women is the "man"

    But what "man" are we talking about?
    Are we saying "men" is general?........NO!
    We are not talking about all men on the whole earth because I got to tell you, I dont give a rip what hair length girls wear ,
    So we cant be talking about "men" in general in this verse because simply put, "Men dont care"...we are not the least bit dishonored personally by the hair length of women we dont know or have any business even thinking about.

    So what "man" is dishonored if a girl wears her hair incorrectly?
    The answer I believe from the context is "Her husband"
    The husband is the only "man" a girl's hair actually reflects good or ill upon.

    What if the girl is not married yet?
    Then I believe that the "man" being talking about is the "father" of the girl.
    This means that when a girl was seen during this time with the wrong style of hair, (and she was wearing this wrong style openly) that this was seen as a dishonor to her father or to her husband.

    That is just the way it is.
    And the truth is in many ways this same thing is still true in our modern world.*

    The way a girl in your church will dress and talk reflects on how her parents raised her.
    And when she gets married how she dresses is a reflection on her husband.

    thats just the way it is.....


    This FACT OF LIFE is all Paul is talking about









    * when a young girl moves out of her house and ends up a stripper, no one blames it on the relationship she had with her mom.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 01-07-2015 at 11:26 AM.

  23. #23
    alanmolstad
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    and another thing...

    The verses in question talk about the times when a girl will "pray' with her head uncovered.

    We get so swept up in the need to understand the "covering" that we overlook one thing.

    We overlook the word "pray"

    QUESTION: "when does a girl pray?"



    Thats the answer here, for the answer to the question about the word "pray" points us to the understanding that Paul was getting at too.
    For the answer is...."All the time"

    We are to "Pray without ceasing"
    We are to go though the day in a constant state of prayer.

    Too many times I have heard this word "pray" only connected with "going to church"..but that is wrong!

    Its all the time!
    pray all the time, every second of the day.


    So when Paul is talking about a girl praying with hair uncovered, he is not talking about when the girl is going to church as if that was a special time and she could have her head uncovered all the other parts of the day.

    Paul was talking about how the girl looks from sunrise to sunset...

  24. #24
    Saxon
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    and another thing...

    The verses in question talk about the times when a girl will "pray' with her head uncovered.

    We get so swept up in the need to understand the "covering" that we overlook one thing.

    We overlook the word "pray"

    QUESTION: "when does a girl pray?"



    Thats the answer here, for the answer to the question about the word "pray" points us to the understanding that Paul was getting at too.
    For the answer is...."All the time"

    We are to "Pray without ceasing"
    We are to go though the day in a constant state of prayer.

    Too many times I have heard this word "pray" only connected with "going to church"..but that is wrong!

    Its all the time!
    pray all the time, every second of the day.


    So when Paul is talking about a girl praying with hair uncovered, he is not talking about when the girl is going to church as if that was a special time and she could have her head uncovered all the other parts of the day.

    Paul was talking about how the girl looks from sunrise to sunset...
    1Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
    1Corinthians 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
    1Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

    I like your comment on praying but don’t leave out the men in all this as it is quite evident that Paul was also referring to the men in the same aspect. In verses 4 and 5 both the men and women are cautioned about respecting their head while praying or prophesying. The men are not to take the focus off of Christ, in other words, don’t cover Christ. The women were not to bring reproach to their men in any manner as it is the same as if she were shaven. A shaved head was, in those days and in the gentile societies, a punishment of a woman caught as a pros***ute. Leaving your man uncovered as it were would lead to him being dishonoured and a public spectacle.

    This is not about how we look but how we respect our head.

  25. #25
    alanmolstad
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    At sword cl*** now..
    Will post more later tonight.

    let me hear your questions!

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