What hat do you wear?

[alanmolstad]

Killing time on phone.
Will post more later but above is an interesting article, I got a chance to skim it and in a few places i do agree with it...

[Saxon]

Read the first response under the article and then go to the first line where the article author comments on Henry's response; "Henry, I think you totally got it. Spot on." When all is said and done they are saying the same as I have been saying.

[alanmolstad]

If you have a question concerning anything I have written and posted on the forum, just let me know and I will be happy to have a 2nd look and take another shot at it.

[alanmolstad]

any question at all....

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

, , above is an interesting article, I got a chance to skim it and in a few places i do agree with it...

What is it of this lady theologian's approach you don't agree with? Can you cite any other theologians who also share your position? From your perspective Alan, is this just a simple case of spiritual reason edging over the the bulk of conventional treatment here?

[alanmolstad]

I just skimmed it one time as i waited for my wife to get done in the store...
I have no idea what this or that theologian is into...
If i remember correctly, I did a GOOGLE search for this topic on my phone and I think the link I posted was the 3rd or 4th hit .

I skimmed each of the things I looked at, and (again if I remember correctly) I noticed that a lot of the things I was reading were connected to the same "veil"understanding that i have run into many times before.

I think that the reason I posted the link was due to one or two lines I read that had some reference to the whole "veil" connection.

I dont know if I was in any personal agreement at all with what the link had to say?, (I rather doubt it, buts it's possible) but I felt that it might be something that a reader on this topic might find entertaining....



Now, once again, I have written a great deal on this topic, and it's about all I know on it too by the way

So if there is ANYTHING that I have written that you have a question about?, or would like me to go over something I said that I did not explain well enough? Just let me know and I would be happy to take another shot at it.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

From your perspective Alan, is this just a simple case of spiritual reason edging over the the bulk of conventional treatment here?

well....Im not sure what you are asking about, but I can say this -

That when any of us lift a verse out of context we can use it to prove about anything we want to.
The verse I talked about in Genesis is one such situation where a commonly heard understanding has to rely of people opening their bible to only that one page,and only reading that one or two verses.

The other thing I talked about dealing with the head "covering" is also something that relies on people going at the verse with a predetermined finish line in mind.
When they read the verse and get to the word "covering" their mind will replace that word with another that fits better into their whole predetermined understanding of what the Bible is, (or should be) teaching there....regardless of what it says in black and white.



Let me give you yet another example of how people replace one word that appears in the Bible with another that they feel fits their theology better.
QUESTION: What does the Bible say was made first "In the beginning"?


I asked that question many times to my Young Earth teachers, and they all answered "The Light"
I tried many times to get them to open their Bible and read what it says in Genesis, but even if they did read what the bible says in black and white,they refused to believe it because it simply disagreed with what they had predetermined to be what "is", ( or in their minds "should be") taught in Genesis about the order of creation.


By the way, the Bible teaches us that the first thing that God created in the beginning was the Heavens and the earth....




People seem to want to try to use the verse that talks about a "covering" for different reasons.
All I'm saying is that the clear and simplest reading of the verse will lead you to the clear and simple conclusion that here Paul was just talking about hair styles.

Paul was just attempting to save his church brothers and sisters from running afoul of customs and traditions.
Paul wanted the church to not get a bad reputation, and so was attempting to have people conform to the widely held traditions at the time concerning hair length and it's context in the society.

Now, along the way we will read about a lot of things that are tossed into the mix.
EXAMPLE:, the part of the verse that talks about a girl getting her head shaved.
People seek a way to understand this verse and so they bring in lots and lots of stories about hookers, and adultery, and all sorts of stuff that really have ZERO to do with what Paul wanted to talk to us abut here.

I'm just saying that there is no need to dump all that junk into the story as its just going to screw people up and get them mixed up as to what Paul was talking about.

The simple fact of life is, that to shave your head is the same thing as to cut the hair....it's just a tighter cut.
perhaps performed with different tools, BUT ITS THE SAME IDEA!!!


I shave every day myself, and the difference between shaving some hair and cutting some hair depends on the hair length you are dealing with and/or results you are seeking to get.

There is no need to drag the story of a hooker or adultery into it, and if you did you would confuse the point.

Once again, shaving and getting a hair cut are the same thing.....sorta, more or less.

Remember Paul himself is said to have shaved all the hair off his head one time.

Im told that when girls do the same type of vow to the Lord that Paul undertook, that they too would shave off all the hair as a sign of their serious commitment to their vows.
No need to drag a story of a hooker into understanding why Paul shaved his head, and if you were to do so it would just mess up the point of the story anyway.

Notice also that right after Paul talks about a girl shaving her head he backs-away from that idea and points out that if a girl with a shaved head is seen as a disgrace that she should wear it longer then.

once again this is clearly Paul attempting to save his sisters from adopting a hair style that might be seen as disgraceful in that society.



And that's the whole context of what Paul is aiming to achieve here.

[alanmolstad]

Now as you know, I always try to wrap up what I have said on a topic with the invitation for anyone with a question about what i have written to come forth and ask me to go over something a 2nd time that was unclear.

I also see by the lack of guests right now on this message board that it kinda seems like except for myself no one else is posting as of late?
I dont mind that , (as you can clearly tell..LOL) but it does kinda make it seem like Im posting all the time day and night, when in reality its just once in a while on a wide variety of topics.

Be that as it may, because it does appear that Im posting a lot of stuff here I should also make it very clear to other guests that I invite you to go over anything I have written here on this forum, and if there is ANYTHING I have said that you want me to readdress?...just ask me to do so!

I would be more than happy to take another shot at a question or topic that you think I need taking a 2nd look at, or need to re-write to make more clear.


So regardless of the topic or how long ago i may have written something, if you see something odd, ask me to look at it again.

[Saxon]

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1 Corinthians 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

If this is just about hair cutting, why is verse 3 so careful about identifying exactly what the heads are that need to be uncovered and those that need to be covered?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Saxon

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
1 Corinthians 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

If this is just about hair cutting, why is verse 3 so careful about identifying exactly what the heads are that need to be uncovered and those that need to be covered?

long hair is given to the girl as her "covering" so that her head is covered and thereby it is a good reflection on her husband.

For when you look at her covering on her head you see the respect she has for her husband.

Thus the connection between her husband and what her own head looks like with its hair covering.
Looking at one you are looking at the other.....thats how connected this matter was to these people...."inseparable"


Thus there is no confusion as to why the covering is important to Paul, and why Paul is talking to his church abut this matter.

Yes all Paul is doing is offering advice that might be called "parental" in that this is just talking about girl's hair styles and their context.

Yet this is a fact of life that people will judge you on this matter in their culture and so its best for everyone to be on the same page and understand that its not just your husband (the girl's head) that is dishonored but also the whole Christian faith in general too.

That is the reason Paul lists the other churches when he talks about this tradition.
|Paul was dropping the hint that this matter with the Corinthian church is being watched closely by the all other churches ...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

1 Corinthians 11:2
"I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I p***ed them on to you."

This verse lets us know that what we are dealing with is a "tradition" of their culture.
This means that you cant hold this section to be point-by-point still as relevant as it was, (given that this is a different age with different traditions ) but general principles that are behind the tradition should still be worth our study.


1 Corinthians 11:15
"For long hair is given to her as a covering."

So now we know from this verse what this "covering" is that we have been looking at.
Its "long hair" for the girls, and thereby shorter hair for the guys.

This point is confirmed at -
1 Corinthians 11:14
"Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him,"

Thus we now understand that the coverings we are dealing with are clearly "long hair" for girls and short hair for the boys.
and that means that when a girl is said to have her head "uncovered" it means to have short hair.
And is also means that when the text says that a man has his head "covered" it is actually just talking about the man having hair that is too long according to the "tradition" held at the time.

Now we look at this next question that Paul asks us to think about -
1 Corinthians 11:13
"Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?"

The context tells us that the answer is clearly "no" to Paul's question.
So this with the verses we have already quoted tells us that for girls the "head uncovered" is the same as "short hair"

And this therefore also means that "head covered" in boys means "long hair'

Now lets move to the next part.


1 Corinthians 11:6
For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head

So now we have a good understanding of the context of "covering" and we understand what that is talking about...


1 Corinthians 11:5
"But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head"

But who is this "head" that is being "dishonored" ???, because we are reading about it as if the "head" were a person that could be both honored or dishonored????

That answer is seen at -
1 Corinthians 11:3
"and the head of the woman is man"




So that now forms for us the context of what Paul is teaching, in that the "hair of the women is a direct connection to the man that is over her in authority....
Look at her hair, and see the man...Just as you look at the man's hair and see Christ.

But this is not the ending, for Paul still has to get to his point, and that is that when a girl is seen with long hair or short hair it is a direct refection of the 'man" in authority over her, be it her husband or before she married her father.

I like all that I have said on this issue here...
I believe its very true and worth saying....

[alanmolstad]

and....the other verse that some people tend to lift out of it's context all the time to teach weird ideas?

Genesis 6:4