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Thread: What hat do you wear?

  1. #51
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    No more issues?
    All wrapped up here with this topic?
    I suppose I have pretty much made my mind up about this. That rest on a few weaknesses of the hair only proposal.

    In I Corinthians 11, we have this grouping of verses describing what the covering is, hair only:

    13Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, 15but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering.
    Yes, the above is dealing with hair only. While this body of text starts off with hair only but ends with whatsoever will work for a covering.

    5But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. 6For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head.
    Why?

    There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)
    We therefore cannot uphold Galatians 3:28 if a “disgraceful” older woman who is experiencing acute female baldness attends. We would have to see to it that this woman be excommunicated or something similar if we lived by the hair only proposal.

    How could this be otherwise?

    Mike.

  2. #52
    alanmolstad
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    I went over your post carefully looking for any reference to a "hat" in the scriptures?, or a bike helmet?, or of anything made of cloth to cover the head?. or of straw?...or of plastic?...or of metal?....

  3. #53
    alanmolstad
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    Lets look at the same scripture you have quoted that you suggest is pointing to something else becides the "long hair" that I keep telling you this is only about.


    Now first, this is what you list for verses that are dealing with hair only -

    "In I Corinthians 11, we have this grouping of verses describing what the covering is, hair only:

    13Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, 15but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering.


    Before we go to the next part, Im going to just highlight the parts that we seem to both see as only referring to hair.
    Now as we know, the Text tells us clearly that "long Hair" was given to the girls as a "covering" and with that in mind, (long hair = covered head) lets look for things that are talking about these hair 'coverings"


    13Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, 15but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering.



    So by now we can clearly see that there is simply no other way to understand what paul is talking about here...
    Long hair, be it on a man OR a women....is the "covering" that paul is talking about.

    Paul has carefully and simply defined for us what he means by the use of the terms "head uncovered" and "covering" and what tells us he means is all about a person's "hair"

    Thats it.....Just the hair.

    Simply put its - LONG HAIR = COVERING

    Hair and nothing but hair is a person's covering according to Paul.


    Now lets move on to the next part that needs to be checked out...

  4. #54
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post

    Yes, the above is dealing with hair only. While this body of text starts off with hair only but ends with whatsoever will work for a covering.


    Whatever will work eh?
    That's taught in the Bible?.....whatever works?

    Lets look and find out -

  5. #55
    alanmolstad
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    5But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.
    6For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head.


    Now lets read that same section again, and lets make sure as we go along that we define any terms that we have just seen Paul carefully define for us.


    5But every woman who has her head uncovered (uncovered = short hair) while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.(shaved = uncovered = short hair)

    6For if a woman does not cover her head, (cover her head = long hair) let her also have her hair cut off (hair cut off = uncovered = short hair);

    but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off (hair cut off= uncovered = short hair) or her head shaved(shaved = short hair = uncovered), let her cover her head. (cover her head = long hair)
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 01-15-2015 at 06:02 AM.

  6. #56
    alanmolstad
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    as you can clearly see above.....this whole section of Scripture is Only dealing with the topic of hair, and its length.



    There is not a single line to suggest its talking about hats, or veils, or bike helmets, or cloth wraps, or straw, or plastic baseball caps, or metal, or anything else !




    Just hair.

  7. #57
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    as you can clearly see above.....this whole section of Scripture is Only dealing with the topic of hair, and its length.



    There is not a single line to suggest its talking about hats, or veils, or bike helmets, or cloth wraps, or straw, or plastic baseball caps, or metal, or anything else !




    Just hair.

    I think there is also a historical context here. To the Corinthian society, a woman was seen as submissive and modest and feminine when she was covered in public ***embly. Removing that covering in public ***embly was a sign that she was making a statement. Women who did that were falling into one of two categories generally, for the most part. No. 1, they were feminists making a protest. We know in those days that feminists did two things in that culture--discarded their covering and shaved their hair short like a man. They were thus making a statement about their wanting to be equal to men. Feminists threw away their veils. No.2 they were pros***utes, obviously they wanted to be seen.
    In verse 5, "A woman that prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head." In fact, at the end of verse 5 and verse 6, he says, "She might as well go ahead and shave herself bald for that matter." In other words, if she's going to be shameful about it, she might as well go the whole route and look like a protester, because the women in that day who were protesting in the feminist movement had clipped their hair short like a man. The point he is making is this, "Look, in your society, God wants the distinction clear. Men are men, and they are in authority. Women are women, and they are in submission. If your society has a custom that makes this clear, then you abide by that custom." That's the long and short of it. (pun intended).

  8. #58
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    " In fact, at the end of verse 5 and verse 6, he says, "She might as well go ahead and shave herself bald for that matter."

    In other words, if she's going to be shameful about it, she might as well go the whole route and look like a protester, because the women in that day who were protesting in the feminist movement had clipped their hair short like a man.
    This is where I disagree with a lot of people.

    You know that whole "cut your hair and look like a protester"idea?.....its wrong.

    Its bad scholarship, and was invented and p***ed on in commentaries by lazy teachers, invented to answer questions about Paul's wording that people did not know how to understand.


    I totally reject the idea that Paul was making a snide remark....
    i reject the idea that Paul was suggesting that if you shave your head you will look like a hooker or a feminist.

    I reject that idea because its wrong...
    Wrong for what Paul was attempting to say.

    The problem is that so many people when they come at this verse with a preconceived idea that connects "shaved head = hooker" or "shaved head = protester", that when they read what Paul is saying they automatically fill in the blanks and end up teaching things Paul was miles and miles away from teaching.


    All Im saying is that if you don't make the idea of a women shaving her own head as a bad thing to happen...if you don't automatically think Paul must be talking about "hookers", ...THEN.....

    Then you see something different, something beautiful....and something directly connected to Paul's own personal life.

    Paul is talking to the church at Corinth about shaving of the head, because
    (pay attention to this next part)|

    Because that is what he did in Corinth!!!



    When Paul was at Corinth he took a vow that was well-known to people at that time, and one of the things he did in connection to that vow was to shave his head!
    (see ACTS 18:18)

    this vow was likely the most spiritually moving part of Paul's whole life.
    And let me tell, from personal experience, you never forget shaving your head!
    Paul never forgot that is for sure!

    This is why Paul suggests it as a way for girls to appear differently to people......But appear how?

    appear to be feminist?......NO!

    appear to be hookers?.......NO!

    appear to be women caught in adultery?.......NOOOOOOOO!

    QUESTION: how would a women appear if they were part of the church community and had a shaved head?.......
    ANSWER: They would appear the same way Paul appeared to the same church community at Corinth that he is addressing in this letter...

    They would appear to have taken a most holy vow to the Lord!!!


    Paul shaved his head so that when the Elders and Leaders of the Jewish church looked at him and saw his shaved head, they would automatically understand it to mean he had taken a very religious vow onto the Lord.

    Paul suggests this same action to girls.


    This fits nicely with the whole effort that Paul is making in this letter to bring out the best in people.
    To urge them to a more Christ-like life.

    Paul is not suggesting for even one second that these women at Corinth make themselves appear as hookers....Not even in jest would Paul do such a thing!

    The teachers and bible commentators that suggest such understandings are all in error.
    When I hear people quoting such commentators i just think that they are the victim of poor scholarship and are trusting their study of the Bible to lazy teachers.


    Paul undertook that vow as a means to appear to not be teaching against the Jews, Go read what he did and why in ACTS...that's why he did it>

    Paul here suggests the girls that have decided to wear their hair too short for their society that they also follow in his own footsteps, and perhaps shave their heads as a way to be seen as following the path he has walked in not wanting to appear going against the Jewish traditions.

    He is not asking the girls to do anything that he himself did not do in very similar circumstances.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 01-15-2015 at 01:33 PM.

  9. #59
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Alan,

    I appreciate your zeal, but I disagree with your conclusion. I enjoyed your post.

  10. #60
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Alan,

    I appreciate your zeal, but I disagree with your conclusion. I enjoyed your post.
    thanks for taking the time...thanks for the ear..


    just try to read it sometime and not connect the idea of a girl shaving her head as being something that is bad.

    I think if you free yourself from that preconception that you may also start to see the point Im making.

    If Paul's suggestion about a girl shaving her head was aimed at making that girl appear more "holy" to the society, (as i believe it was) then it changes the whole idea you may have about what Paul is saying.

    it also may change your idea of what Paul was like as a guy too!

    I know when this topic came up when I attended Bible School, several of the girls in my cl*** considered paul to be kind of an A$$ with how they understood his suggestion about shaving a girls head.

    "Just let him try that with me" one girl said to the cl***.

    My answer is that Paul was not saying what so many people think he was saying!


    Im saying that Paul was simply suggesting something that if followed would have helped a girl appear to be even more Holy and devout to others.

    Paul was not suggesting girls might as well look like hookers!

  11. #61
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    I enjoyed your post.
    I hoped you did!

    The truth is, I walked around the house a few times with my laptop, speaking out loud what I was writing to you in an effort to make the words of the post flow as best I could..
    I really want my words to be easy to read....

    The understanding and believing part?, that is up to the reader..

    But it's my *** to make my words easy to read....and I tried my best to do so for you...

  12. #62
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Whatever will work eh?
    That's taught in the Bible?.....whatever works?

    Lets look and find out -
    I just did. The option for a woman's long hair has been removed by my point. Therefore she also needs cover. If you don't wish to agree with that, that's fine, just show me how it is inadmissible.

    Btw, your writing is quite clear and your point I do understand. That is to say that the bulk of the text describes hair as a covering, right? No, of course not, it is presently contended by you as not bulk but the entirety of this p***age for your position, and that no mention of anything else exist for a covering, right? But this is where everyone parts ways. It is those refs like verse six that stands out as differing from hair.

    "but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head."

    Back to the point of my question, how are some women going to cover their heads with hair if they no longer can grow any? Are they cast out? Too old to avoid the disgrace? Are they barred from attending the will of God in this matter? All I have done here is capitalize on the loss of hair that is completely out of the woman's control in some cases who ALSO needs to follow what has been described.

    Again, if you don't think my point is admissible, or your points somehow supercede mine, that's fine, please say with what specifically?

    Mike.


  13. #63
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    [SIZE=3]
    That is to say that the bulk of the text describes hair as a covering, right?

    No, of course not, it is presently contended by you as not bulk but the entirety of this p***age for your position, and that no mention of anything else exist for a covering, right?

    But this is where everyone parts ways.
    So I understand better, what are you talking about in the underlined part?

  14. #64
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    "but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head."
    Im reading and posting as i go along.

    I came to this part and I want to add...
    I believe Paul is just saying that if looking like you just undertook a very holy and religious vow in your society might actually make you look bad, then dont look like that.

    Shaving your head as a women meant in that historical society that you have undertook a very holy and religious vow,,,(Paul knew this because he undertook the same type of vow and also shaved his head..see ACTS 18:18)

  15. #65
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    [SIZE=3]
    Back to the point of my question, how are some women going to cover their heads with hair if they no longer can grow any?
    The text does not talk about the issue....therefore any answer i come up with is just a guess and is not based on scripture...

    I would just point out that the scripture is very clear that the ONLY covering we are talking about is "long Hair"....but the "amount" of that hair is not listed...only it's length.

  16. #66
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    [SIZE=3]how are some women going to cover their heads with hair if they no longer can grow any?
    The question is not addressed in the text, so i can only guess.

    The guess I have is that we are talking only about the "length" of a girl's hair...never its thickness or quan***y...
    This seems to allow for all kinds of individuals with different amounts of hair...

    The issue Paul has is not in the amount of hair and its traditional meaning in their society, but in its length and the context it carried in society.





    long hair is given to the girls as a covering...not necessary thick hair.
    long hair only grows via intention...you have to want to grow your hair long.

    thin hair is up to god and genetics...and as such is not discussed or criticized in the Bible.

  17. #67
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    [SIZE=3]Are they cast out? Too old to avoid the disgrace? Are they barred from attending the will of God in this matter?
    Paul never once even suggests such an evil thing happen to our sisters in the church.

    Paul is simply going out of his way to advise ways for our sisters to look more holy and devout.

  18. #68
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post


    Again, if you don't think my point is admissible, or your points somehow supercede mine, that's fine, please say with what specifically?

    Mike.

    Im only saying that my point of view is the only correct point of view.
    Im saying that all the teachers and Bible commentators that say that when Paul suggested shaving a girls head as a sign they were bad girls , are actually lazy bible scholars, and are teaching **** that they made up, and their reasons for doing so are weak, and are mostly based on other cities in other parts of the world, and not based on the christian community at Corinth at this time.

    .......

    Im saying that a girl that shaved her head was seen as a holy and devoted person, who had taken the very same vow that Paul took.

    Im saying that the reason Paul even talks about shaving the head of a girl with shorter hair is because he did that to himself for the very same reason....."looking devout" to others...

  19. #69
    alanmolstad
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    MichaellS
    If I have overlooked a question, or if there is something I have posted you have a question about or would like to have a 2nd look at?...just ask me to do so...

    i will be happy to address anything, any question, and concern you have over what i have posted

  20. #70
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    That’s all from me dear brother. Interesting!
    Last edited by MichaellS; 01-16-2015 at 06:01 AM.

  21. #71
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    1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
    1 Corinthians 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
    1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

    Alan seems to want to ignore verse 3. What I would like to know is how does a man, cover Christ by cutting his hair and how does a woman cover her man/husband by growing her hair? When you totally ignore the key verse that directly informs the reader just what the heads are you will always come up with legalistic hair cutting and growing. This is still and always has been about showing respect to your head as listed in 1 Corinthians 11:3.

    1 Corinthians 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

    Verse 3 mentions nothing about the woman being covered, so it is clear that we are about to hear something that is somewhat different. It is explaining that hair is not the issue. If the woman is not covered, with a veil or some head covering, then let her be shorn or shaved. The only caution is “if it be a shame”. The remedy is not to grow more hair, as that remedy contradicts the freedom to be shorn or shaved. A veil would fix the problem. God wants us to be acceptable in our present society so we can serve God without besmirching what is considered decent to that society unless it is in violation to the will of God. God does not look at the outward appearance as man does but he looks on the inward part that only he can see.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon View Post
    1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
    1 Corinthians 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
    1 Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

    Alan seems to want to ignore verse 3. What I would like to know is how does a man, cover Christ by cutting his hair and how does a woman cover her man/husband by growing her hair? When you totally ignore the key verse that directly informs the reader just what the heads are you will always come up with legalistic hair cutting and growing. This is still and always has been about showing respect to your head as listed in 1 Corinthians 11:3.

    1 Corinthians 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

    Verse 3 mentions nothing about the woman being covered, so it is clear that we are about to hear something that is somewhat different. It is explaining that hair is not the issue. If the woman is not covered, with a veil or some head covering, then let her be shorn or shaved. The only caution is “if it be a shame”. The remedy is not to grow more hair, as that remedy contradicts the freedom to be shorn or shaved. A veil would fix the problem. God wants us to be acceptable in our present society so we can serve God without besmirching what is considered decent to that society unless it is in violation to the will of God. God does not look at the outward appearance as man does but he looks on the inward part that only he can see.
    when you look at the girl, you see her relationship in how she looks.
    Thatis why looking ather headis the samething as looking at her husband.

    The two ideas are the same, they are welded to each other.

    Look at her hair= see her husband....and so....the length of her hair = her relationship with her husband.

  23. #73
    Saxon
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    You are still ignoring 1 Corinthians 11:3. Why are the heads so clearly stated??

  24. #74
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    3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God.

    3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, (When you look at the head of the man you can see his relationship with Christ, The correct hair length shows you what place the man has for Christ in his heart, The two ideas, the hair on the man's head and his relationship with his Lord are welded into the same thing ...That is what it says "The head of the man is Christ")





    and the head of the woman is man,[a] (when you look at the head of the women you see the man, you look at her hair and see the relationship to her husband, there is no separation between looking at her head and seeing her relationship with her husband,,the two ideas are welded into one...That is why it says "The head of the woman is man")





    and the head of Christ is God. (when you look at Christ you see God, when you look at Christ you see the relationship the Son has to the father...seeing one points to the other....no separation...Now Christ was with the father, so we cant actually 'see" jesus, but the same concept is at work in their relationship toop as is seen in what we were reading about the man and the women and how you see things just by looking at them....That is why it says, "The head of Christ is God" in other words, "When you look at Christ you see God")

  25. #75
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    3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God.

    3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, (When you look at the head of the man you can see his relationship with Christ, The correct hair length shows you what place the man has for Christ in his heart, The two ideas, the hair on the man's head and his relationship with his Lord are welded into the same thing ...That is what it says "The head of the man is Christ")
    When has hair length replaced faith? You can’t tell a person’s relationship with Christ by the length of their hair. We can tell a person’s relationship to Christ by the love they have for one another. (See 1 John 4:7)

    You need to show me in the Bible where it says the correct hair length shows you what place the man has for Christ in his heart. It doesn’t.

    1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.



    and the head of the woman is man,[a] (when you look at the head of the women you see the man, you look at her hair and see the relationship to her husband, there is no separation between looking at her head and seeing her relationship with her husband, the two ideas are welded into one...That is why it says "The head of the woman is man")
    That is not what it says. The heads are indicating leaders. When you look at a woman’s head with all here hair you don’t see her man. You don’t even know most of the women that you see let alone by looking at her head with her hair who her man is.



    and the head of Christ is God. (when you look at Christ you see God, when you look at Christ you see the relationship the Son has to the father...seeing one points to the other....no separation)
    That is because you are speaking about ONE God. That is a closer relationship than the one flesh relationship of a man and his wife. Not one of your explanations is solid scripture. There is no scripture that I can see you using. You seem to rely on opinions of so called “Bible Scholars”. Alan, your comments lack scriptural backing.

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