Deuteronomy 18:20-22

[Bat-Man]

I'll use this translation of the text, which was given to me by HickPreacher:

Deuteronomy 18:20-22:

But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Has anyone ever stopped to realize that the Jews or Israelites who stoned the true prophets of God were (in their own minds) following this admonition of our Lord, according to Moses.

Some true prophet of God would come along and basically tell the Jew/Israelites that they needed to Repent (however they said it), while possibly also conveying some other information that they weren't already familiar with, and just because some Jews/Israelites didn't believe that person was a true prophet of God, they would put him to death, usually by stoning him, and then go back to their usual business.

What do you think about that ?

Do you think God didn't realize some Jews/Israelities would put his true prophets to death because they wouldn't believe they were true prophets ?

Do you think God won't hold those Jews/Isrealites accountable for killing his true prophets, even though they may not have believed they were his true prophets ?

These scriptures are often used as justification to reject Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God, and I believe God will hold people accountable for rejecting Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God just as God will hold those Jews/Israelites accountable for rejecting God's other true prophets.

What do you think about that ?

[Bob Betts]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

I'll use this translation of the text, which was given to me by HickPreacher:

Deuteronomy 18:20-22:

But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Has anyone ever stopped to realize that the Jews or Israelites who stoned the true prophets of God were (in their own minds) following this admonition of our Lord, according to Moses.

For our sake today, and how we can know a true from a false prophet, it doesn't really matter much what they thought in there own minds. We can see that they were NOT following this admonition.

Some true prophet of God would come along and basically tell the Jew/Israelites that they needed to Repent (however they said it), while possibly also conveying some other information that they weren't already familiar with, and just because some Jews/Israelites didn't believe that person was a true prophet of God, they would put him to death, usually by stoning him, and then go back to their usual business.

What do you think about that ?

You have given a fictional, speculative scenario to give our opinions about. Give a real biblical scenario that we can examine, with actual circumstances we can address, and apply to the above p***age.

Do you think God didn't realize some Jews/Israelities would put his true prophets to death because they wouldn't believe they were true prophets ?

I don't know of an OT situation where what you've presented actually happened. You're asking us to speculate on a ficticious scenario.

Do you think God won't hold those Jews/Isrealites accountable for killing his true prophets, even though they may not have believed they were his true prophets ?

Can't answer the question without a real situation to examine and evaluate.

These scriptures are often used as justification to reject Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God, and I believe God will hold people accountable for rejecting Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God just as God will hold those Jews/Israelites accountable for rejecting God's other true prophets.

What do you think about that ?

But, there are dozens of false prophecies by Joseph Smith. We have the proof. The people who will be accountable to God, will be those who defended Joseph Smith, despite his false prophecies, and followed him as a true prophet. The above scripture is God's test of a prophet for His people to adhere to. It's not vague. And, neither are how false Smith's prophecies were.

My conscience is clear. There's no doubt that Smith prophesied numerous things that did not accurately come to p***, as Smith said they would.

I asked YOU for a list of official prophecies which accurately came to p***, and you didn't give me one. Yet, if even one did NOT accurately come to p***, he was a false prophet by God's standard in the above p***age.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Bob Betts

You have given a fictional, speculative scenario to give our opinions about. Give a real biblical scenario that we can examine, with actual circumstances we can address, and apply to the above p***age.

I was referring to the fact that Jews or Isrealites actually put true prophets of God to death, usually by stoning. Are you saying that you're not familiar with one instance where that actually happened ?

Consider the case of Stephen, if you need an example to focus on.

I don't know of an OT situation where what you've presented actually happened. You're asking us to speculate on a ficticious scenario.

Okay. If you want to see an example from the Old Testament, try thinking about all of the prophets our Lord was referring to in Matthew 23:37.

But, there are dozens of false prophecies by Joseph Smith.

No, there's not even one.

You simply think some prophecies of God given through Joseph Smith are false, but all of them are actually true.

We have the proof.

You have hearsay and misrepresentations.

The people who will be accountable to God, will be those who defended Joseph Smith, despite his false prophecies, and followed him as a true prophet.

Everyone will be accountable to God for what they did or did not do, and those who don't recognize Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God will miss out on a lot of the blessings of God that are now available to them through Joseph Smith.

My conscience is clear. There's no doubt that Smith prophesied numerous things that did not accurately come to p***, as Smith said they would.

Everything God prophesied through Joseph has either already come to p*** or it is yet to come to p*** just as God prophesied through Joseph.

I asked YOU for a list of official prophecies which accurately came to p***, and you didn't give me one.

I asked YOU for a list of official prophecies which DID NOT accurately come to p***, and you didn't give me one, so I think we're even on that score.

Yet, if even one did NOT accurately come to p***, he was a false prophet by God's standard in the above p***age.

You may be thinking some prophecies of God which are yet to be fulfilled are false prophecies, for all I know, but all of them either have or will come to p*** just as God has prophesied through his prophets, including Joseph Smith.

[dfoJC]

I have a bit of a different rendering of Deuteronomy 18:20 that adds a little more flavor to the mix, I will just quote verse 20 as it deals with false prophets. "However, the prohet that revolts speaking a word in my name, that does not speak my command and that speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet dies."

Below is a prophecy that has not come to p***, and may I add if our Old Testament were this inaccurate, well, we would all be in a heap of trouble!

On September 22 and 23, 1832, Joseph Smith foretold of an LDS temple to be built in Independence, Missouri:

"A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all p*** away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house."

OK Bat Man, here is a prophecy of Josephs. Would you please explain to me how it has been fulfilled?

with kind regards,
dfoJC

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by dfoJC

I have a bit of a different rendering of Deuteronomy 18:20 that adds a little more flavor to the mix, I will just quote verse 20 as it deals with false prophets. "However, the prohet that revolts speaking a word in my name, that does not speak my command and that speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet dies."

Below is a prophecy that has not come to p***, and may I add if our Old Testament were this inaccurate, well, we would all be in a heap of trouble!

On September 22 and 23, 1832, Joseph Smith foretold of an LDS temple to be built in Independence, Missouri:

"A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high. Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. For verily this generation shall not all p*** away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house."

OK Bat Man, here is a prophecy of Josephs. Would you please explain to me how it has been fulfilled?

with kind regards,
dfoJC

Look at where that revelation was received.

A temple was built there in that generation.

What do you have a problem with, specifically ?

[Bob Betts]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

I was referring to the fact that Jews or Isrealites actually put true prophets of God to death, usually by stoning. Are you saying that you're not familiar with one instance where that actually happened ?

Wel, I would have to go back into the OT to reference the specific incidences, since I don't have them in my memory bank. But, you brought it up. I would have ***umed that you would have had some specifics in mind.

Consider the case of Stephen, if you need an example to focus on.

Stephen? He was a NT Apostle...stoned for preaching the gospel, not for having inaccurately prohesied a future event, as Deut. 18:22 is about: "if the thing follow not, nor come to p***." He certainly wasn't stoned as a prophet.

I don't know of an OT situation where what you've presented actually happened. You're asking us to speculate on a ficticious scenario.

Okay. If you want to see an example from the Old Testament, try thinking about all of the prophets our Lord was referring to in Matthew 23:37.

LOL. This is a pattern with you. Instead of giving me a scenario, you ask me to come up with one that fits what Jesus said in Matt. 23:37. It's just like when I asked you for a list of accurately fulfilled prophecies of future events, instead of a list, you came back with, "I have a better idea. Show me your list of false prophecies." So, like you didn't have any list of true prophecies, you don't have an actual OT scenario to use as an example.

You do the homework, and let us see what you come up with from the OT.

Now, in Matt. 23:37 Jesus said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" Since, Stephen was years away from being stoned to death, despite the fact that he wasn't even a prophet, the timeframe would not apply to him. Jesus was speaking of the past, and the present, with John the Baptist in mind, who WAS a prophet

But, there are dozens of false prophecies by Joseph Smith.

No, there's not even one.

You simply think some prophecies of God given through Joseph Smith are false, but all of them are actually true.

Not one false prophecy? Wow.

Okay, then lets see that list of accurately fulfilled prophecies that you're alleging.

You have hearsay and misrepresentations.

The list please. If they ALL came to p***, this should be the easiest thing anyone has ever asked you to produce.

Everyone will be accountable to God for what they did or did not do, and those who don't recognize Joseph Smith as a true prophet of God will miss out on a lot of the blessings of God that are now available to them through Joseph Smith.

Impossible. Millions of your former brethren have found out the truth about the real Joseph Smith, that LDS leaderhip white-washes. You're living in a dream world, if you think they all came accurately to p***. Why do you think that unofficial LDS apologists have to keep lowering the bar for prophetic accuracy repeating the mantra, "Prophets aren't perfect"? They try to make Smith not look so false?

Everything God prophesied through Joseph has either already come to p*** or it is yet to come to p*** just as God prophesied through Joseph.

The list of accurately fulfilled prophecies, please.

I asked YOU for a list of official prophecies which DID NOT accurately come to p***, and you didn't give me one, so I think we're even on that score.

You think? Well, if you had such a list as I initially requested, you would have provided it, instead of bouncing it back to me to show his false prophecies. You're bluffing. You don't have any.

You may be thinking some prophecies of God which are yet to be fulfilled are false prophecies, for all I know,

Give me some credit. Do you seriously believe that I would be foolish enough to think I could get away with bringing up prophecies that are yet future to us now? Come on.

but all of them either have or will come to p*** just as God has prophesied through his prophets, including Joseph Smith.

I have never been shown one, and I've asked a number of Mormons, including a few who are regulars at this site. So, maybe you'd like to be the first...just a few accurately fulfilled prophecies of future events that were to be fulfilled in any specified time frame before now.

[Bob Betts]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Look at where that revelation was received.

A temple was built there in that generation.

What do you have a problem with, specifically ?

Where are you getting YOUR information from?

God said, in the year 1832, before we were driven out of Jackson County, in a revelation which you will find here in this book, that before that generation should all p*** away, a house of the Lord should be built in that county,...

This was given forty-two years ago. The generation then living was not only to commence a house of in Jackson County, Missouri, but It was actually to complete the same, and when it is completed the glory of God should rest upon it.

Now, do you Latter-day Saints believe that? I do, and if you believe in these revelations as of any one that God has ever given in these latter times, or in former ages...we Latter-day Saints expect to return to Jackson County and to build a Temple there before the generation that was living forty-two years ago has all p***ed away. Well, then, the time must be pretty near when we shall begin the work.
Orson Pratt, June 14, 1874
Journal of Discourses,
Vol. 17, p. 111

We need not expect, from what God has revealed, that a very great number of those who were then in the Church and who were driven, will have the privilege of returning to that land,...there will be some that will live to behold that day, and will return and receive their inheritances, they and their children, grand-children, and great grandchildren, according to the promise.
Orson Pratt, February 7, 1875,
Journal of Discourses,
Vol. 17, pp. 291-292

I firmly believe that there will be some of that generation who were living when this revelation was given who shall be living when this temple is reared. And I do not believe that the Lord has bound himself to accomplish the matter within one hundred years from 1832,...I have full confidence in the word of the Lord and that it shall not fail.
Joseph Fielding Smith, 1935,
The Way to Perfection, p. 270

It may be reasonable to ***ume that in giving this revelation to the Prophet the Lord did have in mind the generation of people who would still be living within the one hundred years from the time of the announcement of the revelation, and that they would enjoy the blessings of the temple, and a glorious cloud would rest upon it. It is also reasonable to believe that no soul living in 1832, is still living in mortality on the earth.
Joseph Fielding Smith, 1957
Answers to Gospel Questions,
Vol. 4, p. 112

You obviously have the wrong temple.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Bob Betts

Wel, I would have to go back into the OT to reference the specific incidences, since I don't have them in my memory bank. But, you brought it up. I would have ***umed that you would have had some specifics in mind.

I wasn't thinking of any instances in the OT, specifically. I was simply thinking that there were some occasions when Jews or Israelites put to death true prophets of God because they didn't believe those people were true prophets of God, and that could have actually happened even if those instances weren't recorded in the OT.

Stephen? He was a NT Apostle...stoned for preaching the gospel, not for having inaccurately prohesied a future event, as Deut. 18:22 is about: "if the thing follow not, nor come to p***." He certainly wasn't stoned as a prophet.

Actually, Stephen was stoned as a prophet. Stephen was stoned because he bore testimony of Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the spirit of prophecy by which all prophets of God speak the truth that is known by Jesus Christ.

He was also stoned because people said he was bearing false testimony of a future event, even though that testimony against him was false, just as it would have been false for Jews and Israelites to say that the testimony of true prophets of God were false. See Acts 6:13-14.

And btw, according to Acts 7:52, prophets of God were slain, according to the testimony of Stephen, even if you can't find any references in the OT to support his claim.

LOL. This is a pattern with you. Instead of giving me a scenario, you ask me to come up with one that fits what Jesus said in Matt. 23:37.

Alright. Nevermind. I provided evidence of that with the testimony of Stephen.

Not one false prophecy? Wow.

Right. Not one. That is impressive, isn't it.

Okay, then lets see that list of accurately fulfilled prophecies that you're alleging.

You said you have a list of all of his failed prophecies, right ?

I'll use your list as my list, as long as you are simply quoting the words of Joseph Smith.

[Bob Betts]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Not one false prophecy? Wow.

Right. Not one. That is impressive, isn't it.

It would be only if it were true. But, you can't show us even one accurate prophecy. Now THAT'S impressive.

Okay, then lets see that list of accurately fulfilled prophecies that you're alleging.

You said you have a list of all of his failed prophecies, right ?

I'll use your list as my list, as long as you are simply quoting the words of Joseph Smith.

Well, let's trade one for one, then.

dfoJC brought out one false prophecy. You claimed it was fulfilled. But, based on the statements I posted by past LDS leaders, you were wrong. So, D&C 84 was indeed inaccurate, making it a false prophecy, and Joseph is already proven a false prophet by this singular false prophecy. The debate is already over. And, you erred in claiming that he had not one false prophecy.

But, please, show us just one of what you believe to be an accurate prophecy of a future event by Smith.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Bob Betts

It would be only if it were true. But, you can't show us even one accurate prophecy. Now THAT'S impressive.

Well, let's trade one for one, then.

dfoJC brought out one false prophecy. You claimed it was fulfilled.

You're misrepresenting again, Bob.

What actually happened was that dfoJC alluded to a prophecy which was received in Kirtland, Ohio, stating, among other things, that a temple would be built there in that generation, and I then told dfoJC that he should look to see where that revelation was received and that a temple was built there in that generation while asking him what he had a problem with, specifically.

I can't help it if you guys misinterpret and misrepresent the truth, Bob.

I will try to straighten you out when I see that you are in error, but I don't have the power to change your minds even when I do tell you the truth.

[dfoJC]

Bat Man, here is your answer to my query;

"Look at where that revelation was received.

A temple was built there in that generation.

What do you have a problem with, specifically ?"

I am not understanding how what you say, "explains how the prophecy was fulfilled" Bat Man. That was my question. This does not answer it.

What does Kirtland Ohio have to do with the "State of Missouri?" Are you saying that Joseph's prophecy wasn't geographically exact? So that makes the Kirtland Ohio temple the fulfillment of this prophecy?

So, my problem is that if Joseph Smith, prophet of the restoration, couldn't get the location correct, how then can anyone trust his prophecies?

Every prophet in the O.T. when speaking for God in regards to geographical locations got it right. Why not Joseph?

So far Bat Man all you have succeeded in doing is justify Joseph's mistakes. Why is it that you protect him?

with kind regards,
dfoJC

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by dfoJC

Bat Man, here is your answer to my query;

"Look at where that revelation was received.

A temple was built there in that generation.

What do you have a problem with, specifically ?"

I am not understanding how what you say, "explains how the prophecy was fulfilled" Bat Man. That was my question. This does not answer it.

What more do you want to know ?

Our Lord Jesus Christ told Joseph Smith that the city of New Jerusalem would be built by the gathering of the saints, "beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation"... etc.

The place our Lord referred to as "this place, even the place of the temple" was the place where the revelation was received by Joseph Smith, which was at Kirtland, Ohio, and a temple was built in that place in that generation thus fulfilling that part of the revelation from Jesus Christ.

It is true that our Lord also prophesied through Joseph that another temple was be built in Independence, Missouri, and that temple has not been built yet, but our Lord didn't say that temple in Independence would be built in that generation and there is still plenty of time for our Lord to accomplish his purposes.

Edit: here is a link to that section of the book of Doctrine & Covenants for those who want to read the actual words of the revelation, including the heading, itself.

[dfoJC]

[QUOTE=Bat-Man;17598]What more do you want to know ?

Our Lord Jesus Christ told Joseph Smith that the city of New Jerusalem would be built by the gathering of the saints, "beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation"... etc.

The place our Lord referred to as "this place, even the place of the temple" was the place where the revelation was received by Joseph Smith, which was at Kirtland, Ohio.

It is true that our Lord also prophesied through Joseph that another temple was be built in Independence, Missouri, and that temple has not been built yet, but our Lord didn't say that temple in Independence would be built in that generation and there is still plenty of time for our Lord to accomplish his purposes.


OK, now I understand, thank you Bat Man. Don't you just love it when you can look back on a prophecy and figure it all out? Man, hind sight is a marvelous thing....

So, really Josephs prophecy was a "twofer." We got the Kirtland temple, but we are still waiting on the Missouri one. Wow. Can you explain to me why the Missouri temple is not included in the "in this generation statement?" Sorry, but to me, that is the glaring unfulfilled part of this prophecy. Why can't the leadership of the Mormon church just get on with it and "fulfill the prophecy?" I mean, it was given by God, so it really shouldn't be to big of a deal. How many temples have been built around the world, yet this one remains unbuilt? Seems strange to me. After all, Joseph spoke it, right?

And the "New Jerusalem," where is that specifically? Is that what is in Kirtland? So then Revelation has been fulfilled all ready according to Mormon belief?

I look forward to your answers Bat Man.

with kind regards,
dfoJC

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by dfoJC

OK, now I understand, thank you Bat Man.

You're very welcome, dfoJC. My pleasure. Anytime.

Don't you just love it when you can look back on a prophecy and figure it all out? Man, hind sight is a marvelous thing....

Yes, I do love it when I can do that, but what's even more awesome than that is when I'm able to know what will happen in the future when it hasn't happened yet.

So, really Josephs prophecy was a "twofer." We got the Kirtland temple, but we are still waiting on the Missouri one. Wow.

Yes, that's true, but also notice that the revelation is about a lot more than the building of a temple, or temples. It's mainly a revelation concerning priesthood, which is the authority of God that God gives to his children as God puts God's name upon them. That's the real meat in that revelation.

Can you explain to me why the Missouri temple is not included in the "in this generation statement?"

What more of an explanation do you need other than what I have already told you ?

Have you looked at verse 4 ?

The "in this generation" statement is tied directly to the "in this place" statement, and the place our Lord was referring to as "this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation." was the place where Joseph was when our Lord gave him that revelation.

Isn't that clear enough for you ?

It wouldn't be where our Lord was when he gave that revelation to Joseph, because our Lord gives us revelation from heaven, unless he appears to us personally, so "this place" should be understood from Joseph's perspective where he was when he received that revelation, and Joseph was in Kirtland, Ohio, when our Lord gave him that revelation.

Do you really need me to spell this out for you like this ?

Sorry, but to me, that is the glaring unfulfilled part of this prophecy.

I agree with you on that part, but that doesn't mean that part of the prophecy is false. It just hasn't been fulfilled yet, but it will be when the time is right.

Why can't the leadership of the Mormon church just get on with it and "fulfill the prophecy?" I mean, it was given by God, so it really shouldn't be to big of a deal.

We could, I suppose, but I believe the time is not right, yet, to do it as our Lord has in mind. Stay tuned.

How many temples have been built around the world, yet this one remains unbuilt? Seems strange to me. After all, Joseph spoke it, right?

Yes, Joseph spoke it, and he spoke for our Lord, Jesus Christ.

... and it is ultimately up to Jesus Christ to have it done as he sees fit.

And the "New Jerusalem," where is that specifically?

I notice you are asking "where" rather than "who".

A city can be a group of people AND/OR the land the people inhabit.

Is that what is in Kirtland?

You tell me. What is in Kirtland, today ?

So then Revelation has been fulfilled all ready according to Mormon belief?

Some revelation has already been fulfilled, and some revelation will be fulfilled in the future.

I look forward to your answers Bat Man.

I look forward to hearing you tell me what God will tell us is true.

[dfoJC]

That is correct, the New Jerusalem is a "where," why do you think I want to know the "who?" The New Jerusalem is not a who.

When I mentioned "Revelation," I was not referring to what you want to walk in, I was referring to the book of Revelation. That is where the New Jerusalem is mentioned.

So, is Kirtland the "New Jerusalem?" Which to me, would be a fulfillment of the Prophecy found in the book of Revelation about the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven. Gosh, maybe I missed something?

So, is it Joseph Smith and your contention that the New Jerusalem has come down from heaven and landed in Kirtland Ohio? And that the temple built there is a fulfillment of that prophecy. I have copied here a portion of the prophecy concerning the "New Jerusalem," which Joseph seems to believe is the same as "Mount Zion."

"Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun.,"

Boy this sure is curious. Joseph says, "Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem, which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith Jun..."

So, if what Joseph says is true about the Missouri "Mount Zion" is true, how can he be there to dedicate it? Are you saying he is going to come back from the dead and do the dedication? Or, did he all ready dedicate something that had not yet been fulfilled?

Bat Man, it seems that this is once again a false prophecy. I will give you kudos however, for you are becoming quite adept at explaining away, or justifying Joseph Smiths supposed prophecy regarding Kirtland and Missouri.

Perhaps we need to redirect here a bit. What in your estimation and understanding of Prophets would lead you to believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God?

I mean The Bible (and history.) demonstrates that Isaiah, or Zechariah, or Elijah and Elisha all were prophets. Why do you believe that Joseph Smith would fit in this group of prophets?

with kind regards,
dfoJC

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by dfoJC

That is correct, the New Jerusalem is a "where," why do you think I want to know the "who?" The New Jerusalem is not a who.

Apparently you're not open to what I was trying to tell you.

Oh well. So be it.

When I mentioned "Revelation," I was not referring to what you want to walk in, I was referring to the book of Revelation. That is where the New Jerusalem is mentioned.

Oh, okay, but FYI, the city of New Jerusalem is mentioned in other places, in addition to the book of Revelation which was written by John.

So, is Kirtland the "New Jerusalem?"

It began there in this dispensation with the conferral of keys from heaven.

Which to me, would be a fulfillment of the Prophecy found in the book of Revelation about the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven. Gosh, maybe I missed something?

Heh, yes, you're missing something, but I think you're on the right track.

You just need to be open to more than you already know now.

So, is it Joseph Smith and your contention that the New Jerusalem has come down from heaven and landed in Kirtland Ohio?

In a manner of speaking, yes.

Keys of the kingdom of heaven were given to us in Kirtland, Ohio, by the people who had the keys to give to us.

And that the temple built there is a fulfillment of that prophecy.

In a manner of speaking, but I'd say it a bit differently, as I have already told you.

I have copied here a portion of the prophecy concerning the "New Jerusalem," which Joseph seems to believe is the same as "Mount Zion."

"Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun.,"

Keep going. As you said, you've only quoted a portion of that prophecy.

Boy this sure is curious. Joseph says, "Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem, which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith Jun..."

There's more to it, and I've already tried to help you to see it.

So, if what Joseph says is true about the Missouri "Mount Zion" is true, how can he be there to dedicate it? Are you saying he is going to come back from the dead and do the dedication? Or, did he all ready dedicate something that had not yet been fulfilled?

Look at everything that happened in Kirtland, Ohio.

Look at the keys of the kingdom of heaven that were restored.

Bat Man, it seems that this is once again a false prophecy.

It may seem that way to you, but I can see more that you don't seem to see, and I believe God can help you to see the truth without me.

I will give you kudos however, for you are becoming quite adept at explaining away, or justifying Joseph Smiths supposed prophecy regarding Kirtland and Missouri.

I believe I'm simply revealing the truth on this issue to you, whether or not you are in agreement with me.

Perhaps we need to redirect here a bit. What in your estimation and understanding of Prophets would lead you to believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God?

Being able to see that those prophets are in agreement with God.

I mean The Bible (and history.) demonstrates that Isaiah, or Zechariah, or Elijah and Elisha all were prophets. Why do you believe that Joseph Smith would fit in this group of prophets?

God has personally ***ured me that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God.

[Bob Betts]

dfoJC,

Bat Man is either deliberately or naively yanking your chain. D&C 84:1-5 has nothing to do with the Kirtland temple. It's not a "twofer. "

The introductory paragraph to D&C 84 CLEARLY states, "1–5, The New Jerusalem and the temple shall be built in Missouri;" Not Kirtland. Kirtland is nowhere mentioned in these 5 verses, only Missouri, and only one temple was talked about. A pretty big mistake to leave the Kirtland temple out of the picture, if it was supposed to be part of the "revelation."

1 A arevelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they bunited their hearts and clifted their voices on high.
2 Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the arestoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his bprophets, and for the cgathering of his dsaints to stand upon eMount Zion, which shall be the city of fNew Jerusalem.

Zion/New Jerusalem is Independence Missouri. "The Gathering" was actually a doctine which called for Mormons to return to Missouri to establish the New Jerusalem. That's why the leadership statements which I quoted (reposted below), and which Bat Man never addressed, are so revealing about the unfulfillment of this "revelation."

And, to answer your question as to why the LDS 'church' never went back to build the temple,...THEY DON'T OWN THE PROPERTY. It is owned in part by two other Mormon church's, Church of Christ Temple Lot and the Community of Christ (formerly the RLDS, started by Emma Smith and her new husband and others who rejected Brigham Young as the succeeding prophet to Joseph).

So, until those two Mormon churches decide to sell out to the Brighamites in Salt Lake City, which they won't, which is why the Brighamites (Utah Mormons) never gathered back there, they will never go back to build their temple.

3 Which city shall be abuilt, beginning at the btemple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and cdedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.

Now, how could this possibly be talking about Kirtland, when it has always been understood that Zion/New Jerusalem was in Independence Missouri. That's where THE Temple lot IS.

Nowhere is there any ***ertion that this "revelation" is about two temples.

4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city aNew Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which btemple shall be creared in this dgeneration.

Key words: New Jerusalem and the gathering of the saints. The gathering of the saints was never, EVER spoken of as being Kirtland, Ohio. How could the city New Jerusalem be built in Independence, Ohio, beginning at Kirtland, Ohio? Since "the gathering of the saints" was undeniably to be in Independence, MO, this "revelation" had nothing to do with ther Kirtland, OH temple.

5 For verily this generation shall not all p*** away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house.

Note the final quote below, in which Joseph Fielding Smith lamented that no Mormon could possibly be alive after 125 years from the year of the "prophecy" (now 177 years) to see the promise fulfilled, and "enjoy the blessings of the temple, and a glorious cloud would rest upon it." ABSOLUTELY referring to the temple in Missouri. CLEARLY unfulfilled.

Joseph Fielding Smith realized that this was a false prophecy.

So, why did Joseph Smith use the word "this" place, instead of "that" place while talking about the Missouri temple, while he was in Ohio? Well, now would be the perfect time to use the commonly Mormon-worn excuse for a lot of Joseph Smith's errors, "He was just an illiterate farm boy."

Now, Bat Man, please address the following laments by LDS leaders through the years, as D&C 84:1-5, turned out to be a false prophecy. Are thy not solid proof that D&C 84:1-5 makes Joseph Smith a false prophet?

God said, in the year 1832, before we were driven out of Jackson County, in a revelation which you will find here in this book, that before that generation should all p*** away, a house of the Lord should be built in that county,...

This was given forty-two years ago. The generation then living was not only to commence a house of in Jackson County, Missouri, but It was actually to complete the same, and when it is completed the glory of God should rest upon it.

Now, do you Latter-day Saints believe that? I do, and if you believe in these revelations as of any one that God has ever given in these latter times, or in former ages...we Latter-day Saints expect to return to Jackson County and to build a Temple there before the generation that was living forty-two years ago has all p***ed away. Well, then, the time must be pretty near when we shall begin the work.
Orson Pratt, June 14, 1874
Journal of Discourses,
Vol. 17, p. 111

We need not expect, from what God has revealed, that a very great number of those who were then in the Church and who were driven, will have the privilege of returning to that land,...there will be some that will live to behold that day, and will return and receive their inheritances, they and their children, grand-children, and great grandchildren, according to the promise.
Orson Pratt, February 7, 1875,
Journal of Discourses,
Vol. 17, pp. 291-292

I firmly believe that there will be some of that generation who were living when this revelation was given who shall be living when this temple is reared. And I do not believe that the Lord has bound himself to accomplish the matter within one hundred years from 1832,...I have full confidence in the word of the Lord and that it shall not fail.
Joseph Fielding Smith, 1935,
The Way to Perfection, p. 270

It may be reasonable to ***ume that in giving this revelation to the Prophet the Lord did have in mind the generation of people who would still be living within the one hundred years from the time of the announcement of the revelation, and that they would enjoy the blessings of the temple, and a glorious cloud would rest upon it. It is also reasonable to believe that no soul living in 1832, is still living in mortality on the earth.
Joseph Fielding Smith, 1957
Answers to Gospel Questions,
Vol. 4, p. 112

[dfoJC]

Thank you Bob, I have always had that sense when talking with Bat Man. My chain has been yanked enough in this life to recognize it when it does happen.

Why is that Bat Man, why is it you choose to address some questions, and then totally ignore others? It comes across as if you are unwilling or unable to answer or just flat out hiding something.

Anyway, I see things a bit more clearly this morning.

with kind regards,
dfoJC

[Bob Betts]

bump for bat man

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by dfoJC

Thank you Bob, I have always had that sense when talking with Bat Man. My chain has been yanked enough in this life to recognize it when it does happen.

I wasn't "yanking your chain" dfoJC, and I've already shared enough of my thoughts on this issue to tell you where I stand on this issue.

It comes across as if you are unwilling or unable to answer or just flat out hiding something.

Try considering the idea that I've already answered the questions and I see no good reason to keep giving the same answers over and over and over and over again after I've already made it clear what my answer is.

Go back and read everything I have already said on this issue, again, and if what I have said is still not clear to you, it never hurts to ask God for a little more wisdom so that you can discern the truth on an issue.

Anyway, I see things a bit more clearly this morning.

I do too, dfoJC, and I'm just about ready to totally give up on you and Bob while trusting that God will do what is best for each one of you.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Bob Betts

D&C 84:1-5 has nothing to do with the Kirtland temple. It's not a "twofer."

I don't agree with you on this issue, Bob. D&C 84 was given at Kirtland, Ohio, and a temple was built there (in Kirtland, Ohio) in which keys of the kingdom of God were given to gather all of God's people together.

Zion/New Jerusalem is Independence Missouri.

Actually, Zion is the pure in heart... wherever they are, or were, or will be.

"The Gathering" was actually a doctrine which called for Mormons to return to Missouri to establish the New Jerusalem.

We're back in Missouri now, Bob, without any fear of extermination, and we will continue to establish Missouri as a part of Zion/New Jerusalem until every blessing of God has been made available to everyone, including those in Jackson County, Missouri.

That's why the leadership statements which I quoted (reposted below), and which Bat Man never addressed, are so revealing about the unfulfillment of this "revelation."

Yes, part of the revelation hasn't been fulfilled yet, and there is still some work to be done in Missouri before all of our Lord's work is done, but a revelation which hasn't been fully fulfilled yet is not a false prophecy.

Now, how could this possibly be talking about Kirtland, when it has always been understood that Zion/New Jerusalem was in Independence Missouri. That's where THE Temple lot IS.

I recommend you learn more about Zion and New Jerusalem, because the idea that all of it is to be limited to Independence, Missouri, is a false notion.

Zion (and New Jerusalem) does and will include all of the pure in heart of Independence, Missouri, and all of Jackson County, Missouri, and all of the state of Missouri, and all of the rest of America including all of North, Central, and South America.

Note the final quote below, in which Joseph Fielding Smith lamented that no Mormon could possibly be alive after 125 years from the year of the "prophecy" (now 177 years) to see the promise fulfilled, and "enjoy the blessings of the temple, and a glorious cloud would rest upon it." ABSOLUTELY referring to the temple in Missouri. CLEARLY unfulfilled.

I do realize the temple in Independence, Missouri, was not built when Joseph Fielding Smith made that statement, but that doesn't mean that Joseph Smith, Jr. gave a false prophecy. It will be built, if it hasn't been built already, and as of yet this is simply an unfulfilled prophecy rather than a false prophecy because there is still time for that temple to be built.

And btw, FYI, I don't consider the temple built in Independence, Missouri, by the group known as the "Community of Christ" to be a fulfillment of the temple prophesied in D&C 84 because that temple has not been dedicated to our Lord by proper authority, but it is interesting to note that a temple has actually been built on that spot, already. Who knows, maybe later we (LDS) will get the same building and just re-dedicate it as a temple to our Lord.

Joseph Fielding Smith realized that this was a false prophecy.

That's another misrepresentation, Bob.

You're actually pretty good at that, if you consider that to be a virtue.

So, why did Joseph Smith use the word "this" place, instead of "that" place while talking about the Missouri temple, while he was in Ohio? Well, now would be the perfect time to use the commonly Mormon-worn excuse for a lot of Joseph Smith's errors, "He was just an illiterate farm boy."

I've already told you why he said "this place".

Now, Bat Man, please address the following laments by LDS leaders through the years, as D&C 84:1-5, turned out to be a false prophecy. Are they not solid proof that D&C 84:1-5 makes Joseph Smith a false prophet?

I've already addressed those comments by telling you what I've told you.

A temple was built in the place where our Lord told Joseph it would be built in that generation, and another temple was yet to be built at the end of that generation which many people would still like to see as an already built temple.

[dfoJC]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

I wasn't "yanking your chain" dfoJC, and I've already shared enough of my thoughts on this issue to tell you where I stand on this issue.

Try considering the idea that I've already answered the questions and I see no good reason to keep giving the same answers over and over and over and over again after I've already made it clear what my answer is.

Go back and read everything I have already said on this issue, again, and if what I have said is still not clear to you, it never hurts to ask God for a little more wisdom so that you can discern the truth on an issue.

I do too, dfoJC, and I'm just about ready to totally give up on you and Bob while trusting that God will do what is best for each one of you.

Welcome back Bat Man, I trust you had a productive weekend in whatever your endeavors were....

Gee, I have kind of missed your condescending at***ude lately, thanks for displaying it once again. I just know that some day, God will deal with you on that issue. I pray it is soon.

Giving up? What is it you are trying to succeed in? Proving me completely and forever wrong about mormonism? Tsk, Tsk, we are here to have a friendly discussion, nothing more, nothing less. Or, is it that you have been trying to convince me of what you consider truth? Sorry my friend, I already know the Truth, and found Him to be amazingly perfect in every way to live life.

So, what does that mean exactly, well, since Grace saved me through faith I have been given the keys to the overcoming life. I like the way God says it in II Peter 1:3-4: "As His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Notice the "all things" there Bat Man. It means we lack nothing when it comes to living a spiritual life! And we are even complete in all areas of life, at least according to God. However, I am sure, he has told you something different.

I would ask one favor Bat Man, don't turn the part of this verse that talks about "divine nature" into a "we can be gods mantra." That is simply another mormon thought that at this point is not what we are discussing.

Anyway, take care.

with kind regards,
dfoJC

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by dfoJC

Gee, I have kind of missed your condescending at***ude lately, thanks for displaying it once again.

I don't consider your at***ude to be a proper at***ude from someone who is seeking to learn, dfoJC, and whether you realize it or not, I do know more about what you call "Mormonism" that you don't know about, yet.

I just know that some day, God will deal with you on that issue. I pray it is soon.

God and I get along great, dfoJC, because I know to humble myself before him.

You, on the other hand, are a person pretty much like me except that you don't know as much about Mormonism as I do, so here I am the Teacher, or one of the Teachers, and you are here as a student, at best.

Giving up? What is it you are trying to succeed in?

My goal here is to share the truth regarding my religion and beliefs, and I'd like you to get to the point where you can at least acknowledge what I believe whether or not you agree with me.

Tsk, Tsk, we are here to have a friendly discussion, nothing more, nothing less.

Actually, it's about at least a little bit more than that, or it should be.

The only good reason for you to come to this LDS/Mormon forum is to learn more about Mormonism from those who know what Mormonism is, which would be from those of us who are LDS/Mormons.

Others who are ex- or anti- LDSism/Mormonism are not correctly representing true LDS/Mormon teachings, even though they would like you to believe they are, and if you're only here to stir up trouble, so to speak, it is a big waste of my time for me to be here talking to you.

I already know what I believe, and my beliefs are not changing unless God changes his mind concerning what is actually true.

Do you understand that ?

God is the one who has told me that my beliefs concerning Mormonism are true, which is why I am a "Mormon", and you, dfoJC, can go take a flying leap from a tall building if you think YOU can change what God has told me.

Or, is it that you have been trying to convince me of what you consider truth?

Yes. Exactly. Nothing more, and nothing less.

I'm not trying to convince you of what YOU believe to be true. That would be silly.

I'm simply trying to share what I know to be true with you so that you can at least know what it is that I believe, whether or not you choose to agree.

Sorry my friend, I already know the Truth, and found Him to be amazingly perfect in every way to live life.

I'm not going to argue with you about that, because I also believe God should be the one we all look to as we seek to find the truth.

If you want to know about Mormonism, though, with a desire to find out more about what "Mormons" really believe, well, that's what I'm here for.

You can always believe whatever you want.

I'm simply here to share what I believe and know to be true with other people because this is the LDS/Mormon forum on this site.

If you are here in this LDS/Mormon forum to share your beliefs with other people, I suggest you go back to your forum and wait for other people to come there to talk to you about your religion.

I'm not here to learn about your religion, unless it ADDS to my religion.

[dfoJC]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

I don't consider your at***ude to be a proper at***ude from someone who is seeking to learn, dfoJC, and whether you realize it or not, I do know more about what you call "Mormonism" that you don't know about, yet.


God and I get along great, dfoJC, because I know to humble myself before him.

You, on the other hand, are a person pretty much like me except that you don't know as much about Mormonism as I do, so here I am the Teacher, or one of the Teachers, and you are here as a student, at best.


My goal here is to share the truth regarding my religion and beliefs, and I'd like you to get to the point where you can at least acknowledge what I believe whether or not you agree with me.


Actually, it's about at least a little bit more than that, or it should be.

The only good reason for you to come to this LDS/Mormon forum is to learn more about Mormonism from those who know what Mormonism is, which would be from those of us who are LDS/Mormons.

Others who are ex- or anti- LDSism/Mormonism are not correctly representing true LDS/Mormon teachings, even though they would like you to believe they are, and if you're only here to stir up trouble, so to speak, it is a big waste of my time for me to be here talking to you.

I already know what I believe, and my beliefs are not changing unless God changes his mind concerning what is actually true.

Do you understand that ?

God is the one who has told me that my beliefs concerning Mormonism are true, which is why I am a "Mormon", and you, dfoJC, can go take a flying leap from a tall building if you think YOU can change what God has told me.


Yes. Exactly. Nothing more, and nothing less.

I'm not trying to convince you of what YOU believe to be true. That would be silly.

I'm simply trying to share what I know to be true with you so that you can at least know what it is that I believe, whether or not you choose to agree.


I'm not going to argue with you about that, because I also believe God should be the one we all look to as we seek to find the truth.

If you want to know about Mormonism, though, with a desire to find out more about what "Mormons" really believe, well, that's what I'm here for.

You can always believe whatever you want.

I'm simply here to share what I believe and know to be true with other people because this is the LDS/Mormon forum on this site.

If you are here in this LDS/Mormon forum to share your beliefs with other people, I suggest you go back to your forum and wait for other people to come there to talk to you about your religion.

I'm not here to learn about your religion, unless it ADDS to my religion.

Wow! Where there is smoke, there must be fire, eh Bat Man? Thank you for responding, I enjoyed that very much.

Yep, no doubt about it, your knowledge of Mormonism is way greater compared to mine. You win by a bazillion miles, if this were a race I'd be the 49 bug and you would be the mazerati. My hats off to you.

By the way, I practice no religion. I am not here to share religion. Religion is what the pharisees practiced, Jesus had a hard time with them. I definitely do not want to be a pharisee. Do you? Probably not.

So, what did you think of the II Peter chapter 1 p***age I shared with you? You didn't say one thing about that, actually bummed me out a bit.

You know Bat Man, you are sitting pretty good right now it appears. Can I ask you some questions?

Why do you need Mormonism? If God reveals to you all truth, why get into this? Wouldn't it just be easier to throw out the Standard Works, the Bible and all of that, and you know, just you and God go on and live life however He leads you to? I mean the rules must get to you, at least once in a while, no?

It woud seem to me a much simpler way of life, not trying to tempt you or anything, just curious, thats all.


Well, good night for now. Take care,

with kind regards,
dfoJC

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by dfoJC

By the way, I practice no religion. I am not here to share religion. Religion is what the pharisees practiced, Jesus had a hard time with them. I definitely do not want to be a pharisee. Do you? Probably not.

You don't have to be a pharisee to have a religion, and believe it or not, you actually do have a religion even if you don't know that you do have a religion.

A "religion" is basically just a way of life as it applies to a person's own life.

For some people, football is their religion, or a big part of their religion.

For some other people, politics is their religion, or a big part of their religion, and some people who have politics as a part of their religion also have football as another part of their religion.

Anything people have as a part of their life which they follow "religiously" is their religion, or a part of their religion, and I've noticed that at least a part of your religion involves having religious discussions with LDS/Mormons.

My religion is basically learning all about Jesus Christ, and he has led me to Mormonism as a viable means of learning more about him and the good news he has to share with all people.

So, what did you think of the II Peter chapter 1 p***age I shared with you? You didn't say one thing about that, actually bummed me out a bit.

I didn't actually get that far in your post because of my frustration that I was having with what I perceived to be your lack of interest in learning more about Mormonism from me, but if you'd still like me to comment on that ask me again at another time and I will tell you. Right now I'd like to focus on responding to other things in this post from you that I am responding to.

You know Bat Man, you are sitting pretty good right now it appears. Can I ask you some questions?

Okay, just a few, though, and then after I answer your questions I'd like you to acknowledge that I have answerered these questions to such an extent that you understand my position, and I'd like you to do that without saying anything at all about whether or not you agree with what I have told you.

It's not important to me to know whether or not you agree with me. I'd simply like to know that you correctly understand what I have told you, without trying to "teach" me something from your own perspective, because I believe that learning from a Mormon about what a Mormon believes is what this LDS/Mormon forum is for.

Why do you need Mormonism? If God reveals to you all truth, why get into this?

Good questions! In answering both of those, which I believe are directly related, please understand that I will be sharing my own personal perspective which I believe has been influenced by God.

At one point in my life I believed I could learn all about God on my own without any help from anyone else (other than God)... and I still believe I can to a certain extent... but as I tried to do that I would eventually hear some ideas from someone (other than God ) which gave me some more ideas to consider than I had thought about up to that point, if I had not already considered those ideas before, at which point I would then ask God if those thoughts were good and true and worth incorporating into my own life, and I would then either incorporate those thoughts into my own life, or not, dependent upon what God told me about those ideas.

Mormonism, generally, was simply one of those things which was brought to my attention at a time when I had never heard about Mormonism before, and after giving some consideration to what Mormonism was represented to be, and after discussing Mormonism with God, God ***ured me that Mormonism was a good thing for me to incorporate into my own life.

Wouldn't it just be easier to throw out the Standard Works, the Bible and all of that, and you know, just you and God go on and live life however He leads you to?

I've found that throwing out the words of others is a lot easier to do in theory than in practice, because even if I TRY to avoid listening to people (other than God) somebody (other than God) will eventually show up and tell me what they think, even if I don't want them to do that, at which point I will then have their thoughts in my mind to deal with. But, yes, I do believe I am still living my life as God is leading me to live it, with God being the one I should rely on to know what is true.

I mean the rules must get to you, at least once in a while, no?

Actually, the rules work really well for me, because I consider a life without rules to be a life without order, and I believe the rules I am following lead to the best order of life that is possible, at least for me, individually.

For example, I understand that in order for me to have a wife, there needs to be some rule which establishes how to get a wife and how to hang onto her for as long as I want her, and if for some reason I should ever want to get rid of her, there needs to be some rule which will get rid of her... and all of this, of course, in the best way possible, with little to no harmful consequences to my own life, and preferably also with no harmful consequences to the person who either is or was or will be my wife in the future.

Rules are good, as long as the rules lead to good results.

It would seem to me a much simpler way of life, not trying to tempt you or anything, just curious, thats all.

A life without any rules actually makes things a lot more complicated, if you think about it. A life without any rules results in chaos.

Seriously. Just think about it, some more.