Question for BrianH

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Brian,

Using your premise and ***umptions for the Triune God, when did God create the law of cause and affect?

Or did He even create that law?

[BrianH]

Using your premise and ***umptions for the Triune God, when did God create the law of cause and affect?

Or did He even create that law?

Lets begin by correcting your terms. The doctrine of the trinity is not an "***umption". It is the normative systematic theology of God in Christianity and is based on the fact that the Bible is explicit in telling us that there is, was and forever will be only ONE God AND the fact that the Bible identifies three (and only three) persons as God.

Now, in answer to your question I will tell you what I told you the last time you asked: God created the laws of the universe when he created the universe.

-BH

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Now, in answer to your question I will tell you what I told you the last time you asked: God created the laws of the universe when he created the universe.

-BH

So God created the law of cause and affect without using the law of cause and affect to do so?

[BrianH]

BH>>Now, in answer to your question I will tell you what I told you the last time you asked: God created the laws of the universe when he created the universe.
F>So God created the law of cause and affect without using the law of cause and affect to do so?

Yes. That is correct. The laws that govern the physical universe are only binding on the physical universe. Furthermore they cannot be said to have existed before the universe itself came into existence because the laws themselves are dependent on the things they govern. For example, there would be no laws of gravity if there was no m*** or space. There can be no laws of thermodynamics if there is no energy.

This will be hard for you to understand, because you think that God is a THING, a corporeal object located in space and time (on or near some celestial body called "Kolob"). The truth is, God - the one and only TRUE God, the God of the Bible- is NOT confined to the physical universe. He CREATED it.

-BH

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[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Yes. That is correct. The laws that govern the physical universe are only binding on the physical universe. Furthermore they cannot be said to have existed before the universe itself came into existence because the laws themselves are dependent on the things they govern. For example, there would be no laws of gravity if there was no m*** or space. There can be no laws of thermodynamics if there is no energy.

This will be hard for you to understand, because you think that God is a THING, a corporeal object located in space and time (on or near some celestial body called "Kolob"). The truth is, God - the one and only TRUE God, the God of the Bible- is NOT confined to the physical universe. He CREATED it.

-BH

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So, according to you, the law of "cause and affect" did not come about because of "cause and affect".

I understand you now, Brian.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

So, according to you, the law of "cause and affect" did not come about because of "cause and affect"?

Why ask him again?

He's already told you what he thinks, and I think you should just run with that as he does when we share what we think with him.

Obviously, according to what BrianH has already said, BrianH doesn't consider God to be the "law" or the "cause" in your "law of cause and effect" scenario.

I think we can now dismiss his comments without any further ado.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Why ask him again?

He's already told you what he thinks, and I think you should just run with that as he does when we share what we think with him.

Obviously, according to what BrianH has already said, BrianH doesn't consider God to be the "cause" in your "cause and effect" scenario.

I think we can now dismiss his comments without any further ado.

Yea, I feel like I'm trying to speak with someone from another planet who doesn't even hold basic "existence" in common with me. It's futile.

[BrianH]

So, according to you, the law of "cause and affect" did not come about because of "cause and affect".

...Only the cause of God creating it. God himself is uncaused and he is the cause of the existence of the universe, according to the Bible. By contrast, the very EXISTENCE of the theoretical (and apparently imaginary) Mormon "God" is dependant upon the universe for his existence.

I understand you now, Brian.

The question is, do you understand the truth before you reject it?

-BH

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[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

...Only the cause of God creating it. God himself is uncaused and he is the cause of the existence of the universe, according to the Bible.

.

How could God be the cause of anything if the natural law of cause and affect isn't eternal?

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

How could God be the cause of anything if the natural law of cause and affect isn't eternal?

One of the ways I see it Fig, is that in Heaven the physical laws we are limited to here will not exist and things will be very different and exciting there.

Jesus gave us an insight into that by walking on water, multiplying the bread and fish, calling Lazarus out of the grave etc.

the law of cause and effect was created when this realm was spoke into existence and said law helps us understand our universe.

Andy

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

One of the ways I see it Fig, is that in Heaven the physical laws we are limited to here will not exist and things will be very different and exciting there.

Jesus gave us an insight into that by walking on water, multiplying the bread and fish, calling Lazarus out of the grave etc.

the law of cause and effect was created when this realm was spoke into existence and said law helps us understand our universe.

Andy

So there is no law of cause and effect in God's realm?

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

So there is no law of cause and effect in God's realm?

You are starting to sound like a very scratched broken record Fig.

What is the point with this cause and effect?



Andy

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

You are starting to sound like a very scratched broken record Fig.

What is the point with this cause and effect?

Andy

Simple. I believe that the law of "cause and effect" is not an EFFECT, (nor it is an AFFECT) of some first cause.

[BrianH]

How could God be the cause of anything if the natural law of cause and affect isn't eternal?

First of all, the law of cause and effect is what we observe in the physical universe which God created and thereby exhibited his own will and nature as creator. It is not evident in any form OUTSIDE or BEFORE the physical universe. God was not abiding by a law supposedly higher than himself but exhibiting the truth of his own nature as the actual creator. Secondly, if there was no physical universe, the laws that govern it would not only be impossible, but unnecessary. The laws of gravity, for example cannot even possibly exist apart from m***, space and time. Thirdly, the Mormon "God", being by definition only a "demigod" - an exalted creatrue, is necessarily subject to the laws of the physical universe. This means he is lying when he claims to be the creator and master of those laws.

-BH

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[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

First of all, the law of cause and effect is what we observe in the physical universe which God created and thereby exhibited his own will and nature as creator. It is not evident in any form OUTSIDE or BEFORE the physical universe.

How do you know? Have you observed this phenomenon personally? Or has anyone?

Originally Posted by BrianH

God was not abiding by a law supposedly higher than himself but exhibiting the truth of his own nature as the actual creator.

What I think you are trying to say is that you believe God is a law unto himself. And that he doesn't follow any rules or principles that exist independently of his first creating those rules or principles--as they simply don't exist.

So then you will probably say that God IS the very law and principle of Cause and Effect.

Originally Posted by BrianH

Secondly, if there was no physical universe, the laws that govern it would not only be impossible, but unnecessary. The laws of gravity, for example cannot even possibly exist apart from m***, space and time.

Actually, it is the "EFFECT" of gravity which cannot exist w/o m***, space, time, etc. The law exists whether or not you have the elements in place to implement the law. The existence of natural law is not dependent upon obeyers of that law to abide by it.

Otherwise, you could say that God is not God unless there are beings in existence who worship and acknowledge Him as such.

Your third point did not deserve consideration.

[BrianH]

How do you know? Have you observed this phenomenon personally? Or has anyone?

Is emperical observation the only means of achieving knowledge, Fig?

What I think you are trying to say is that you believe God is a law unto himself. And that he doesn't follow any rules or principles that exist independently of his first creating those rules or principles--as they simply don't exist.

So then you will probably say that God IS the very law and principle of Cause and Effect.

Straw man. No what I am saying is what I said: God was not abiding by a law supposedly higher than himself but exhibiting the truth of his own nature as the actual creator. Being outside time and space before creating them, he is not bound by the laws of the physical universe IN time and space. That is the MORMON "God" who is the creature living in outer space, not the TRUE God.

Actually, it is the "EFFECT" of gravity which cannot exist w/o m***, space, time, etc. The law exists whether or not you have the elements in place to implement the law. The existence of natural law is not dependent upon obeyers of that law to abide by it.

Wrong agian. While indeed the effect of gravity cannot exist with no m*** or space or time, that is BECAUSE there can be no gravity. Now if you would like to contest that observation, all you have to do is explain how gravity can exist outside time and space and where there is no m***. Go ahead, Fig ...SHOW ME that the laws of gravity somehow exist where there is no physical reality. I can hardly wait.

Otherwise, you could say that God is not God unless there are beings in existence who worship and acknowledge Him as such.

No YOU could say that. I could not. YOU are the one who's whole religion is based on imagination, not me.

Your third point did not deserve consideration

Just keep running, Fig. It shows us that even YOU know you have no actual answers.

-BH

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[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Is emperical observation the only means of achieving knowledge, Fig?

You tell me.

Originally Posted by BrianH

Straw man. No what I am saying is what I said: God was not abiding by a law supposedly higher than himself but exhibiting the truth of his own nature as the actual creator. Being outside time and space before creating them, he is not bound by the laws of the physical universe IN time and space. That is the MORMON "God" who is the creature living in outer space, not the TRUE God.

Like I said. For you, God is therefore a law unto himself. Either that or God is lawless in his own realm.

And who says that the law of "Cause and Effect" is somehow bound to our physical existence, and reaches no where else? Is this in the Bible? Your word isn't good enough to go on.

Originally Posted by BrianH

Wrong agian. While indeed the effect of gravity cannot exist with no m*** or space or time, that is BECAUSE there can be no gravity.

But there CAN BE gravity as well as gravity's effect IF m*** is present.

The presence of the element does not determine the truth or existence of the principle. The principle and law exist independent of the elements affected by it.

So according to you, there is no law unless there are elements in existence to obey that law. That's a strawman if ever there was one. I'll even **** that one down, if it doesn't fall over on its own, first.

Originally Posted by BrianH

Now if you would like to contest that observation, all you have to do is explain how gravity can exist outside time and space and where there is no m***. Go ahead, Fig ...SHOW ME that the laws of gravity somehow exist where there is no physical reality. I can hardly wait.

The principle and law still exist but are simply inactive until you introduce the elements, the law and principle show themselves.

If a tree falls in the forest, it makes no sound because Brian did not hear it?

Maybe if you cover your eyes, Brian, then your mommy won't be able to see you.

[BrianH]

BH>>Is emperical observation the only means of achieving knowledge, Fig?

F>You tell me.

The answer is no. That is why your question was moot.

BH>>Straw man. No what I am saying is what I said: God was not abiding by a law supposedly higher than himself but exhibiting the truth of his own nature as the actual creator. Being outside time and space before creating them, he is not bound by the laws of the physical universe IN time and space. That is the MORMON "God" who is the creature living in outer space, not the TRUE God.

F>Like I said. For you, God is therefore a law unto himself. Either that or God is lawless in his own realm.

No, not "for me". For real. The typical, LDS attempt to relativize even the most obvious truths is evdient in your rhetoric. You cannot deal with reality, Fig. And REALITY is pretty darn obvious right here. The LDS "God" is indeed subject to the laws of the physical universe. His very existence is dependent on the physical world. By contrast the God of the Bible CREATED the physical world and therefore cannot be dependent upon it for his existence. Since the God of the Bible says that he alone is the ONLY God there is, was or ever will be that meanst the Mormon God is imaginary, at best.

And who says that the law of "Cause and Effect" is somehow bound to our physical existence, and reaches no where else? Is this in the Bible? Your word isn't good enough to go on.

Show me evidence or a reason to think that the laws of cause and effect exist OUTSIDE physical reality.

BH>>Wrong agian. While indeed the effect of gravity cannot exist with no m*** or space or time, that is BECAUSE there can be no gravity.

F>But there CAN BE gravity as well as gravity's effect IF m*** is present.

Which is what I said and you denied and you are now admitting. Sheeesh, Fig. Try to keep up here will ya? Oh and BTW, for gravity to exist, there must ALSO be space and time. Gravity cannot exist without them. BY DEFINITION gravity is a property of the PHYSICAL universe Fig. It only effects PHYSICAL things (bodies of m***). The real God is not a THING subject to the law of gravity. Only the Mormon "God" is.

The presence of the element does not determine the truth or existence of the principle. The principle and law exist independent of the elements affected by it.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Gravity is GENERATED by m***, Fig. No m*** = no POSSIBILITY of gravity. No gravity means there are no laws of gravity because there is nothing for those laws to govern.

So according to you, there is no law unless there are elements in existence to obey that law. That's a strawman if ever there was one. I'll even **** that one down, if it doesn't fall over on its own, first.

First of all YOU are the one making the statement so if there is a straw man its YOURS. Secondly, unless you can provide me with a reason to think that the laws of gravity exist APART from the physical elements that CAUSE those laws to exist and even give them their purpose, you will have a point. Short of an explanation of how gravity operates WITHOUT any m*** or space or time, you will once again have only exhibited your ignoranc e.

BH>>Now if you would like to contest that observation, all you have to do is explain how gravity can exist outside time and space and where there is no m***. Go ahead, Fig ...SHOW ME that the laws of gravity somehow exist where there is no physical reality. I can hardly wait.

F>The principle and law still exist but are simply inactive until you introduce the elements, the law and principle show themselves.

That is not an explanation. Its just another empty ***ertion. Please back up your claims by EXPLAINING HOW gravity exists and operates outside the physical universe.

If a tree falls in the forest, it makes no sound because Brian did not hear it?

Irrelevant. Red herring.

Maybe if you cover your eyes, Brian, then your mommy won't be able to see you.

What's the matter Fig ...? Can't support your position again, so all you can do is exhibit your adolescent taunting?

Explain how gravity works outside of time and space, Fig.

Go ahead and dodge that AGAIN. I wanna see you DANCE, Mormon.

-BH

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[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

You have no idea what you are talking about. Gravity is GENERATED by m***, Fig. No m*** = no POSSIBILITY of gravity. No gravity means there are no laws of gravity because there is nothing for those laws to govern.

.

The law and principle of gravity is not invented or produced by the existence of m***. But the effect of that law and principle IS evidenced by the existence of m***.

See the difference yet?

Just like the law of cause and affect was not generated by a cause.

The physical world is patterned after the spiritual. The laws that act upon the physical elements are in place before the physical elements appear to be acted upon. The same is true with the spiritual world.

[BrianH]

Again it is evident that you have no idea what you are talking about. And when challenged to defend your claim, all you do is repeat it. You have failed three times now to explain your otherwise empty ***ertion. A cl*** in basic high school physics would have informed you that gravity does not exist without m*** and m*** only exists in space and time.

Were there no m***, no space no time, there would be no gravity and therefore no laws of gravity could be derived. At that point the "principle" of gravity could ONLY exist in in theory - not in reality.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Were there no m***, no space no time, there would be no gravity and therefore no laws of gravity could be derived. At that point the "principle" of gravity could ONLY exist in in theory - not in reality.

The principle of gravity exists before the elements are introduced. And whether it is in theory or not is irrelevant. It exists, and it is truth, and it is a real principle. You don't need to light a match to a gasoline spill to create the principle of cause and effect.

You only need to do that to observe effects of the principle that already is in place.

[BrianH]

The principle of gravity exists before the elements are introduced.

Just repeating your ***ertion over and over again does not amount to an explanation, Fig.

And whether it is in theory or not is irrelevant.

EXACTLY my point. Therefore your "theory" that gravity and its laws exist outside of physical reality is irrelevant.

It exists, and it is truth, and it is a real principle.

Prove it.

You don't need to light a match to a gasoline spill to create the principle of cause and effect.

Irrelevant.

You only need to do that to observe effects of the principle that already is in place.

I I know that you Mormons are somehow conditioned to think that just repeating somehting over and over again makes it true. The challenge before you is to SHOW me that the laws of gravity exist apart from gravity, Fig. Don't just repeat your claim, again SHOW ME why anyone should think your claim is TRUE.

-BH

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[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

I I know that you Mormons are somehow conditioned to think that just repeating somehting over and over again makes it true. The challenge before you is to SHOW me that the laws of gravity exist apart from gravity, Fig. Don't just repeat your claim, again SHOW ME why anyone should think your claim is TRUE.

-BH

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And the principle of gravity is not the CAUSE of gravity. The principle of gravity does not govern the CAUSE of gravity.

The "principle" and "law" of gravity governs the effects of gravity. And not the other way around.

The principle and laws of gravity were in place long before God set the sun and the earth and the moon into motion.

This all brings us back to the topic at hand. That the principle of "Cause and Effect" was in place well before the appearance of any effects.

Gotta hand it to you Brian. You are consistent. For you nothing even exists whether in principle, or in law, or in element until there is observable evidence.

[BrianH]

And the principle of gravity is not the CAUSE of gravity. The principle of gravity does not govern the CAUSE of gravity.

Again, exactly MY point! Glad you are continuing to come around.

The "principle" and "law" of gravity governs the effects of gravity. And not the other way around.

Wrong. If there was no gravity there could be no laws of gravity, Fig. Just ***erting the contrary does not explain your position. By contrast I need only point out the FACT that were there no m***, no time and no space, gravity would be impossible, it would not exist and therefore could not even possibly exert any of the force from which the laws of gravity are derived.

The principle and laws of gravity were in place long before God set the sun and the earth and the moon into motion.

But not before matter and time and space existed. Gravity is the RESULT of the effect that matter has on space. That effect is not limited to the earth and the moon.

This all brings us back to the topic at hand. That the principle of "Cause and Effect" was in place well before the appearance of any effects.

It brings us nowhere Fig. Look ...just ***erting your position is not an explanation of your position. Give me a REASON to think that the laws derived from the properties of the physical universe actually existed BEFORE the physical universe existed. Just repeating your claim over and over again only shows that you are not thinking.

Gotta hand it to you Brian. You are consistent. For you nothing even exists whether in principle, or in law, or in element until there is observable evidence.

Gotta hand it to you Fig. You are consistent. Apparently you can do is misrepresent what I am saying while consistently failing to support your own claims.

-BH

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[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Give me a REASON to think that the laws derived from the properties of the physical universe actually existed BEFORE the physical universe existed. Just repeating your claim over and over again only shows that you are not thinking.

You actually need me to explain to you why the principle of cause and effect needed to be in place for God to cause any effects to take place?

How 'bout you explain to me how God could be the cause of a first effect if the principle and law of cause and effect did NOT exist.