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Thread: "What is the Euthyphro's Dilemma?" CARM video on YouTube

  1. #1
    Russ
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    Default "What is the Euthyphro's Dilemma?" CARM video on YouTube

    Matt Slick (CARM pres.) put up a very good video recently on "Euthyphro's Dilemma." (Yeah, I'd never heard of it before today either.)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-H1PWFgbyg

    It goes like this:

    "The Euthyphro Dilemma comes from Plato's Euthyphro Dialog which has had various forms over the centuries. Basically, it is the question: Are moral acts willed by God because they are good or are they good because they are willed by God?

    "Another way of saying this is: Does God say that things are moral because they are by nature moral, or do they become moral because God declares them to be?

    "The dilemma is that if the acts are morally good because they're good by nature then they are independent of God and God would have to answer to these morals and that would not be a good thing because they would be good in and of themselves apart from God to which God must then appeal.

    "On the other hand, if something is good because God commands that it's good, then goodness is arbitrary and God could have called murder good and honesty as being not good.

    "The Euthyphro Dilemma is actually, in Christianity, a false dichotomy. It proposes only two options when another is possible. The third option is that good is based on God's nature; on his character; on his essence. See, God appeals to nothing other than his own character for the standard of what is good and then reveals to us what that good is.

    "It is wrong to lie because God cannot lie (***us 1:2), not because God had to discover lying was wrong or had to arbitrarily declare that it was wrong. Therefore, for the Christian, there is no dilemma since neither position in Euthyphro's Dilemma represents Christian theology."

    It could be said that LDSism suffers from Euthyphro's Dilemma as it attempts to make God accountable to "eternal laws of the universe" by which God supposedly rose to the station or status of a God by obedience to laws not created by God himself.

    Just another indicator that LDSism attempts to redefine God's nature and character.

  2. #2
    Russ
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    Default Who made God, God?

    The question is asked on CARM:

    Who made 'god', GOD?
    In the 'LDS god system', who appointed god, GOD? Was it a 'council of higher gods' who look and say, 'You've achieved enough Joseph, you're now a 'god'? Or is becoming a 'god' a natural law, like gravity? Who or what, created these laws that create gods?

    In light of Euthyphro's Dilemma, do you see the problem?

  3. #3
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post

    "The Euthyphro Dilemma is actually, in Christianity, a false dichotomy. It proposes only two options when another is possible. The third option is that good is based on God's nature; on his character; on his essence. See, God appeals to nothing other than his own character for the standard of what is good and then reveals to us what that good is.
    And your false dichotomy is that there are only two options: 1. That either all laws are eternal, or 2. that all laws must are set up by God and did not exist until he set them up.

    A third option is that some laws are eternal, and some laws are are only in force for a time--such as temporal laws--for which time of enforcement is determined by God.

  4. #4
    Father_JD
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    You don't seem to understand that for there to be "laws", there necessarily MUST be a "lawgiver"...therefore there can be no such things as "eternal" laws, Fig.

    Your thinking is akin to arguing for uncaused "effects".

  5. #5
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    You don't seem to understand that for there to be "laws", there necessarily MUST be a "lawgiver"...therefore there can be no such things as "eternal" laws, Fig.

    Your thinking is akin to arguing for uncaused "effects".
    You don't understand the difference between a law like the law of Moses, and a law like "as ye sew, so shall ye reap" (The Law of the Harvest).

    When God teaches us eternal laws (which are gospel laws) he IS the law giver. It does not mean He is the original inventor. There is no original inventor of eternal, natural laws.

  6. #6
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    There is no original inventor of eternal, natural laws.
    That's precisely the problem in Mormonism's dilemma.

    If there were no original law giver, then God is but a subject to the laws.

    As Slick said in the video: "The third option is that good is based on God's nature; on his character; on his essence. God appeals to nothing other than his own character for the standard of what is good and then reveals to us what that good is."


    That is the case.

    God appeals to nothing outside himself.

    Mormonism continues to attempt to invent a god of its own making; a demigod; a man who "obeyed" enough to become a god.

    Just another reason to recognize Mormonism as other than Christian.

    Mormonism ignores Psalm 90:2.

  7. #7
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    If there were no original law giver, then God is but a subject to the laws.
    Russ, let's use YOUR God and YOUR definitions, and ignore mine.

    Are those laws which bind the TRIUNE God 'co-eternal' with the TRIUNE God, or did the TRIUNE God first have to establish the laws that bind Him?

    Answer please.

  8. #8
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    You don't understand the difference between a law like the law of Moses, and a law like "as ye sew, so shall ye reap" (The Law of the Harvest).

    When God teaches us eternal laws (which are gospel laws) he IS the law giver. It does not mean He is the original inventor. There is no original inventor of eternal, natural laws.
    Nonsense. There's NO such thing as "eternal, natural laws" in and of themselves. What you perceive as "eternal, natural laws" originate from the ETERNAL God.

    In your little Mormon scenario, laws PRECEDE even God Himself which makes Him held captive to "laws" which He had nothing to do about.

    But then again, when people hold such absurd views of the Creator...anything goes.

  9. #9
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Russ, let's use YOUR God and YOUR definitions, and ignore mine.

    Are those laws which bind the TRIUNE God 'co-eternal' with the TRIUNE God, or did the TRIUNE God first have to establish the laws that bind Him?

    Answer please.
    See? You still just don't understand. God has always existed and his nature is what it is. God, being the creator of even time itself, is eternally God and the AUTHOR of all that exists. God gave the laws and now he reveals them to us.

  10. #10
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    See? You still just don't understand. God has always existed and his nature is what it is. God, being the creator of even time itself, is eternally God and the AUTHOR of all that exists. God gave the laws and now he reveals them to us.
    Did God give the laws which define Himself?

  11. #11
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Russ, let's use YOUR God and YOUR definitions, and ignore mine.

    Are those laws which bind the TRIUNE God 'co-eternal' with the TRIUNE God, or did the TRIUNE God first have to establish the laws that bind Him?

    Answer please.
    You don't get it, Fig. God is NOT bound to laws. What laws there be come from who he IS...they stem from His NATURE.

  12. #12
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Did God give the laws which define Himself?

    And just which "laws" might these be which "define" Him, Fig?

  13. #13
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    And just which "laws" might these be which "define" Him, Fig?
    The laws that if he were to break, it would cause him to cease to be God.

  14. #14
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    The laws that if he were to break, it would cause him to cease to be God.
    Huh? Wanna run that by me again, Fig, 'cause you're not "getting" it.

    "Laws" originate from who He IS, Fig. Scripture declares, "God can NOT lie" because it's NOT IN HIS NATURE TO DO SO.

    We know the Mormon "god" can cease to be "god"...especially if others stop "sustaining" him as "god".

    That ain't the Biblical God, Fig.

  15. #15
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Huh? Wanna run that by me again, Fig, 'cause you're not "getting" it.

    "Laws" originate from who He IS, Fig. Scripture declares, "God can NOT lie" because it's NOT IN HIS NATURE TO DO SO.

    We know the Mormon "god" can cease to be "god"...especially if others stop "sustaining" him as "god".
    "The Mormon God can cease to be God if others stop sustaining him?" You clearly demonstrate that you have little understanding of LDS doctrine. What willful eggnernce you demonstrate.

    So, if it ever becomes in my nature not to lie, does that mean I am a God too?

    Of course it is not in God's nature to lie. I don't think it ever was nor will be.

    Tell me though, will it always be in YOUR nature to lie?

    Just because God is our source for truth and light, does this somehow mean that truth and light and natural law are not co-eternal with God?

  16. #16
    akaSeerone
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    Yep; God cannot lie anymore than Satan can speak truth!

    What an absurd notion....God lying.

    That idea (God lying) had to have come from Satan himself.

    Andy

  17. #17
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Just because God is our source for truth and light, does this somehow mean that truth and light and natural law are not co-eternal with God?
    The Mormon God is not eternally God. He had a starting point as a God. He became God by obedience to eternal laws outside himself.

    The God of the Holy Bible, on the other hand, is the author and creator of everything, visible and invisible and even his own character which is pure and holy according to his own laws.

    That's what Mormonism doesn't (can't) understand.

  18. #18
    Father_JD
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    "The Mormon God can cease to be God if others stop sustaining him?" You clearly demonstrate that you have little understanding of LDS doctrine. What willful eggnernce you demonstrate.

    You clearly demonstrate that you have little understanding of Mormon teaching from the 60's, Fig. It's outlined in one of YOUR Mo's writings...a certain W. Cleon Skousen. I suggest you do a little research before revealing YOUR "eggnernce".


    So, if it ever becomes in my nature not to lie, does that mean I am a God too?

    Of course it is not in God's nature to lie. I don't think it ever was nor will be.

    Tell me though, will it always be in YOUR nature to lie?

    Nope. You will NEVER be or become a "god". But the regenerate, glorified Christian has NO sin nature in God's presence and it's not in his nature to lie. It's still in YOUR nature and mine to lie, Fig...and the sooner you come to understand the extent of the Fall...the better.

    Just because God is our source for truth and light, does this somehow mean that truth and light and natural law are not co-eternal with God?
    In that God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is eternal, his intrinsic attributes are naturally co-eternal with Him.

  19. #19
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    You clearly demonstrate that you have little understanding of Mormon teaching from the 60's, Fig. It's outlined in one of YOUR Mo's writings...a certain W. Cleon Skousen. I suggest you do a little research before revealing YOUR "eggnernce".
    I'd love to read a quote from Cleon Skousen if you have one. Better yet would be a quote from a prophet or apostle or from our scriptures, rather than an author.

    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    It's still in YOUR nature and mine to lie, Fig...and the sooner you come to understand the extent of the Fall...the better.
    Will it always be in your nature to lie, JD?

    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    In that God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is eternal, his intrinsic attributes are naturally co-eternal with Him.
    Well, this admission puts you on course for also acknowledging that natural law is co-eternal with God. Are you sure you want to go there?

  20. #20
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Well, this admission puts you on course for also acknowledging that natural law is co-eternal with God. Are you sure you want to go there?
    I'll go there. So will da fadda.

    God has always existed as God (Psalm 90:2) and, therefore, his own authorship of said laws have always existed with him. It's his universe, his laws, his nature, his character, on and on.

    Now, regarding LDSism, God couldn't have been the author of said laws because, according to LDSism, God has not always been God but became God due to his proven willingness to be obedient to laws outside himself.

  21. #21
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    I'd love to read a quote from Cleon Skousen if you have one. Better yet would be a quote from a prophet or apostle or from our scriptures, rather than an author.

    It's in one of his books such as "The Second Thousand Years" or one of it's successors. It was considered authoritative by the LDS hierarchy in its day...being endorsed by the LDS Church, published by Bookcraft...but do I wanna spend an hour or two hunting down this quote which I well remember...maybe.



    Will it always be in your nature to lie, JD?
    Nope. Either at death or the Rapture. But why do YOU lie, Fig, in light of your denial of Original Sin?



    Well, this admission puts you on course for also acknowledging that natural law is co-eternal with God. Are you sure you want to go there?
    God's attributes are co-eternal with Him because He's eternal Fig...unlike your placing created material...such as "matter" on a par with God.

  22. #22
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by akaSeerone View Post
    Yep; God cannot lie anymore than Satan can speak truth!

    What an absurd notion....God lying.

    That idea (God lying) had to have come from Satan himself.

    Andy
    Ain't that the truth!!

  23. #23
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    You clearly demonstrate that you have little understanding of Mormon teaching from the 60's, Fig. It's outlined in one of YOUR Mo's writings...a certain W. Cleon Skousen. I suggest you do a little research before revealing YOUR "eggnernce".
    For which he was soundly renounced by none other than Bruce R. McConkie. I heard about this on my mission and it created quite a stir that was settle by Br. McConkie's talk.

    God is God and doesn't need anyone to sustain him. Too bad Br. Skousen has drifted much further off the straight and narrow than just this.

    Don't put too much in store with statements by members. They aren't the authority even if they happen to be BYU professors.

    Marvin
    Last edited by Russianwolfe; 10-04-2009 at 06:41 PM.

  24. #24
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by akaSeerone View Post
    Yep; God cannot lie anymore than Satan can speak truth!

    What an absurd notion....God lying.

    That idea (God lying) had to have come from Satan himself.

    Andy
    Please identify the true and false portion of this scripture, use scriptures to support your ***ertion

    Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
    5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
    Marvin

  25. #25
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post

    Don't put too much in store with statements by members. They aren't the authority even if they happen to be BYU professors.

    Marvin
    And even Bruce R. McConkie was soundly rebuked and edited. Is "Mormon Doctrine" still Mormon doctrine. Nope!

    And you are an authority?!

    LOL

    Just who speaks for Mormonism?

    I watched President Monson today. He didn't talk about men becoming Gods over their own planets.

    So I decided to ask Loren at Mormon.org.

    He hemmed and hawed and otherwise beat around the bush, but finally admitted it. (YouTube coming soon. Stay tuned.)

    Have you been soundly denounced in your defense of Mormonism? Have you been sustained as a defender of all things Mormon.

    Man, oh man, just who can we turn to to give us the real deal?

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