Can Someone Help? Spirit Creation

[Vlad III]

Andy says,

"Our spirits were "created" when God breathed into Adam." but then followed up with this, "This much I do know....the mormon teaching about spirit babies and us existing in Heaven is not what the Bible teaches and is therefore false."

I asked for clarification and the reply was:

Where do you get that our spirits were created before our bodies. It is not in the Bible so mormonism is wrong about that.

The Bible says God breathed into Adam....our spirits came from God breathing into Adam.

God breathed our spirit into Adam and it is wrapped in this clump of earth much like us when we are inside of our vehicles that are also made from the earth.

So, I would like some other non-LDS to help clarify this for me, as I'm now confused. It sounds like on one hand, Andy is saying that God created our spirits all at the time he breathed into Adam. But then he says that LDS are wrong for claiming that our spirits were created before our bodies because the Bible doesn't mention that. But then he follows it up again by stating that God breathed OUR spirit into Adam....and then some stuff about vehicles that I completely got lost on.

1) Do you believe our spirits were created at the time of Adam?

2) If so, where were they while waiting for our physical bodies?

3) If not, when were our spirits created?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

3) If not, when were our spirits created?

According to LDSism, which you did not explain, "spirits" have always existed as "intelligences," a sort of primordial goo-ness of undefined nature.

Also according to LDSism, these "intelligences" became "procreated" by Father God and Mother God where they came to exist in what's known in LDSism as the "preexistence" before taking on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" in the "mortal probation."

Take it from there. Let us break into LDS-speak for clarification.

The man-on-the-street would be clueless without your clarification. I know. I've asked. When informed, the man-on-the-street routinely responds, "You're kidding, right?"

No, I'm not.

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Russ

According to LDSism, which you did not explain, "spirits" have always existed as "intelligences," a sort of primordial goo-ness of undefined nature.

Also according to LDSism, these "intelligences" became "procreated" by Father God and Mother God where they came to exist in what's known in LDSism as the "preexistence" before taking on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" in the "mortal probation."

Take it from there. Let us break into LDS-speak for clarification.

The man-on-the-street would be clueless without your clarification. I know. I've asked. When informed, the man-on-the-street routinely responds, "You're kidding, right?"

No, I'm not.

Thanks, Russ.

I was looking for another non-LDS to clarify the non-LDS position of Andy.

Someone else?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

Thanks, Russ.

I was looking for another non-LDS to clarify the non-LDS position of Andy.

Someone else?

You're welcome, Vlad III.

Can we get some LDS clarification on things?

[Libby]

My understanding, which I believe is biblical...

1) Do you believe our spirits were created at the time of Adam?

No.

2) If so, where were they while waiting for our physical bodies?

They were not created yet, but God still knew about us, because he is omniscient.

3) If not, when were our spirits created?

I believe, when we are conceived. Our spirits are created with our bodies.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Libby

I believe, when we are conceived. Our spirits are created with our bodies.

Yep, that works. nt

[stemelbow]

Hey Libby, have any biblical references to support your theory?

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

bump. I'd be interested.

love,
stem

[nrajeff]

I am not ashamed to state that I am a monolatrist just like Jesus and His apostolic-era disciples (such as Paul) were. If anyone has a problem with that, it's their problem, IMO and they can take it up with Jesus and His apostolic-era disciples.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

I am not ashamed to state that I am a monolatrist

Monolatrism or monolatry (Greek: μόνος (monos) = single, and λατρεία (latreia) = worship) is the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity.

So you only worship the Father and never the son?


Are we Christians? Of course we are Christians. We believe in Christ. We worship Christ.
Gordon B. Hinckley, “What Are People Asking about Us?,” Ensign, Nov 1998, 70

I worship Him (Christ) as I worship His Father, in spirit and in truth.
Gordon B. Hinckley, “In These Three I Believe,” Liahona, Jul 2006, 2–8

"The Saints also worship Christ the Son as they acknowledge him as the source of truth and redemption, as the light and life of the world, as the way to the Father. . ."
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Jesus_Christ

2 Nephi 25:29 "And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out."

3 Nephi 11:17 "Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him."

Matthew 2:11 "11And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him. . ."

Matthew 14:33 "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

Matthew 28:9 "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him."

Matthew 28:17 "17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted."

Luke 24:52 "52And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:"

John 9:38 "And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him."

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

We (LDS) do worship Jesus Christ as God. Don't you ?

[alanmolstad]

what makes you "you".....is from conception.

yes, God knew you before you were born, actually He also knew the trees in my yard too, and the ants on that tree....and the spots on the ants on the tree in my yard....all just as much as he knew of me before i was born.

My spirit, my soul, the "thing" that makes me the person I am, was created at my conception.

[alanmolstad]

you see....the basic way a lot of people understood how babies were born was in error in history.

They really believed that the father planted a "seed" inside the garden of the women....this is why the men would also call some women 'fertile' and others as being "barren".....as if the women was nothing more than earth.

This also shows us why men believe that they really did come from their father Abraham, as they did not understand that half of who you are is from your mother.
they ***umed they really were inside Abraham and have just been "p***ed along" via all their other grand fathers until they were born.

be that as it may....we now know a lot more about how humans are born and what we see is that at the moment of conception you become who you are.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

you see....the basic way a lot of people understood how babies were born was in error in history.

They really believed that the father planted a "seed" inside the garden of the women....this is why the men would also call some women 'fertile' and others as being "barren".....as if the women was nothing more than earth.

This also shows us why men believe that they really did come from their father Abraham, as they did not understand that half of who you are is from your mother.
they ***umed they really were inside Abraham and have just been "p***ed along" via all their other grand fathers until they were born.

be that as it may....we now know a lot more about how humans are born and what we see is that at the moment of conception you become who you are.

The Bible teaches the equality of the man and the woman.. While the Bible is not a book of biology it never refutes that a child is of the mother as much as it is of the father.. Children are said to be the woman's many times.. Such p***ages are represented in Proverbs 6:20. Both the father and the mother raise the children.. IHS jim

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

you see....the basic way a lot of people understood how babies were born was in error in history.

They really believed that the father planted a "seed" inside the garden of the women....this is why the men would also call some women 'fertile' and others as being "barren".....as if the women was nothing more than earth.

This also shows us why men believe that they really did come from their father Abraham, as they did not understand that half of who you are is from your mother.
they ***umed they really were inside Abraham and have just been "p***ed along" via all their other grand fathers until they were born.

be that as it may....we now know a lot more about how humans are born and what we see is that at the moment of conception you become who you are.

I can tell a birds and bee's story better than that!

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

Thanks, Russ.

I was looking for another non-LDS to clarify the non-LDS position of Andy.

Someone else?

You're a true-believing Mormon who thinks his religion offers the ultimate answers to such questions.

Bring it to the table. If you won't, or if you can't, I'll do it for you.

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Russ

You're a true-believing Mormon who thinks his religion offers the ultimate answers to such questions.

Bring it to the table. If you won't, or if you can't, I'll do it for you.

Russ,

With all due respect. This thread was for some clarification on what NON-LDS believe concerning the creation of spirits.

Please don't feel the need to jump into every thread and try and preach what you believe the LDS believe - especially in a thread that is asking for the non-LDS side. If you want to do that....at least entertain the questions of the OP first.

It is a little sad that the impression you give to many is that if someone were to meet you on a sidewalk and ask you about the hope you have in you, you would respond about why the LDS are a cult. That is your religion...we get it. But please don't chime in every thread asking for a non-LDS perspective just to give your non-LDS perspective of what the LDS perspective is.

Thanks!

[Russ]

Vlad, with due respect, this is a board to do with LDSism.

Explain LDSism or I'll do it for you.

People have a right to know what the nice young men in white shirts are bringing with their "free Bibles."

Libs answered well in this thread and I would have answered the same.

Don't pretend to lecture me, SIR, with morality.

Cultists, such as Scientologists and Mormons, hide their beliefs, such as you do, and you won't get away with it.

You're Welcome!

Originally Posted by Vlad III

Russ,

With all due respect. This thread was for some clarification on what NON-LDS believe concerning the creation of spirits.

Please don't feel the need to jump into every thread and try and preach what you believe the LDS believe - especially in a thread that is asking for the non-LDS side. If you want to do that....at least entertain the questions of the OP first.

It is a little sad that the impression you give to many is that if someone were to meet you on a sidewalk and ask you about the hope you have in you, you would respond about why the LDS are a cult. That is your religion...we get it. But please don't chime in every thread asking for a non-LDS perspective just to give your non-LDS perspective of what the LDS perspective is.

Thanks!

[Vlad III]

Originally Posted by Russ

Vlad, with due respect, this is a board to do with LDSism.

True. And it is not a crime for a LDS person to create a thread to understand the POV of a non-LDS person on an issue where there might be some disagreement.

Explain LDSism or I'll do it for you.

Feel free to create your own thread if you want to talk about the LDS position of spirit creation. That's the nice thing about a board where you can create a whole new topic if you are wont to derail the current one.

People have a right to know what the nice young men in white shirts are bringing with their "free Bibles."

Great! Don't I have the right to know what you, the non_LDS believe, about something? If I am asking to know what you believe, not telling me but then only telling me what you think I believe seems a bit counter-productive to helping me gain the information and to make an informed decision to leave my beliefs for yours.

Libs answered well in this thread and I would have answered the same.

Yeah. And thanks Libs! Russ would've answered the same....but that would've meant Russ sharing what HE believes....and that kind of gets in the way of him telling other people what they believe.

Don't pretend to lecture me, SIR, with morality.

No lecture. Make your owm thread if you want.

Cultists, such as Scientologists and Mormons, hide their beliefs, such as you do, and you won't get away with it.

Hmmm.....the irony here is I was asking what YOUR beliefs were, and instead of sharing you went for trying to tell me what I already am supposed to believe about my own religion. Who was hiding?

[Russ]

Not hiding. Standing right here in front of you, using my real name and not some alter ego internet moniker that I dreamed up.

Libs answer is a good one. It stands as mine too.

According to LDSism, which you continually neglect to explain, "spirits" have always existed as "intelligences," a sort of primordial goo-ness of undefined nature.

Also according to LDSism, these "intelligences" became "procreated" by Father God and Mother God where they came to exist in what's known in LDSism as the "preexistence" before taking on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" in the "mortal probation."

These are the facts to which people should be made aware, but you never told me.

Why?

[nrajeff]

Russ doesn't want to clarify Andy's explanation of Russ's beliefs, because Russ doesn't understand them either.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Russ doesn't want to clarify Andy's explanation of Russ's beliefs, because Russ doesn't understand them either.

Is that so?

My answer is the same as Libs.

What's going on in the "preexistence," Jeff?

What's going on with "eternal intelligences?"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Vlad III

Thanks, Russ.

I was looking for another non-LDS to clarify the non-LDS position of Andy.

Someone else?

I do not think our spirits were formed prior to our births. This is indicated in Zechariah 12:1 which states, ". . .The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him.


Proof texts used by LDS to try to show a pre-existence of spirits

Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Shows the foreknowledge of God.

*** 38:7
KJV--When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

NIV-- while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

"When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy: This tells us that angelic beings (here called morning stars and sons of God) did in fact witness the creation of the earth, and the rejoiced at the glory, power, and wisdom of God in the creation."
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/1838.htm

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Russ

According to LDSism, which you did not explain, "spirits" have always existed as "intelligences," a sort of primordial goo-ness of undefined nature.

Also according to LDSism, these "intelligences" became "procreated" by Father God and Mother God where they came to exist in what's known in LDSism as the "preexistence" before taking on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" in the "mortal probation."

Take it from there. Let us break into LDS-speak for clarification.

The man-on-the-street would be clueless without your clarification. I know. I've asked. When informed, the man-on-the-street routinely responds, "You're kidding, right?"

No, I'm not.

Russ doesn't know what he believes. He just knows what he doesn't believe.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

Russ doesn't know what he believes. He just knows what he doesn't believe.

On a board to do with LDSism, one would think Mormons would be quite content to speak honestly and openly about their religion, the "only true church on the face of the earth."

When Mormons come asking questions, and when Mormons come presenting what they consider to be "stumpers," and when Mormons are answered (twice already in this thread), it's time to get right back to the topic of this board.

LDSism would have us believe that God and Mother God "procreated" the spirits in the "preexistence" (don't ask me, Mormons made it up), and then the spirits took on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" (physical bodies in Mormon-speak) so that they too might have opportunity to become Gods over their own planets.

THAT is LDSism in a nutshell.

People deserve to know what they're signing up for before they sign up.

And since you won't tell them, I will.

I'll steam roll you in LDS quotes.

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by Russ

On a board to do with LDSism, one would think Mormons would be quite content to speak honestly and openly about their religion, the "only true church on the face of the earth."

When Mormons come asking questions, and when Mormons come presenting what they consider to be "stumpers," and when Mormons are answered (twice already in this thread), it's time to get right back to the topic of this board.

LDSism would have us believe that God and Mother God "procreated" the spirits in the "preexistence" (don't ask me, Mormons made it up), and then the spirits took on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" (physical bodies in Mormon-speak) so that they too might have opportunity to become Gods over their own planets.

THAT is LDSism in a nutshell.

People deserve to know what they're signing up for before they sign up.

And since you won't tell them, I will.

I'll steam roll you in LDS quotes.

You have no foundation in place to compare with anything LDS believe, Russ. How sad.