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Thread: Can Someone Help? Spirit Creation

  1. #1
    Vlad III
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    Default Can Someone Help? Spirit Creation

    Andy says,
    "Our spirits were "created" when God breathed into Adam." but then followed up with this, "This much I do know....the mormon teaching about spirit babies and us existing in Heaven is not what the Bible teaches and is therefore false."
    I asked for clarification and the reply was:
    Where do you get that our spirits were created before our bodies. It is not in the Bible so mormonism is wrong about that.

    The Bible says God breathed into Adam....our spirits came from God breathing into Adam.

    God breathed our spirit into Adam and it is wrapped in this clump of earth much like us when we are inside of our vehicles that are also made from the earth.
    So, I would like some other non-LDS to help clarify this for me, as I'm now confused. It sounds like on one hand, Andy is saying that God created our spirits all at the time he breathed into Adam. But then he says that LDS are wrong for claiming that our spirits were created before our bodies because the Bible doesn't mention that. But then he follows it up again by stating that God breathed OUR spirit into Adam....and then some stuff about vehicles that I completely got lost on.

    1) Do you believe our spirits were created at the time of Adam?

    2) If so, where were they while waiting for our physical bodies?

    3) If not, when were our spirits created?

  2. #2
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post

    3) If not, when were our spirits created?
    According to LDSism, which you did not explain, "spirits" have always existed as "intelligences," a sort of primordial goo-ness of undefined nature.

    Also according to LDSism, these "intelligences" became "procreated" by Father God and Mother God where they came to exist in what's known in LDSism as the "preexistence" before taking on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" in the "mortal probation."

    Take it from there. Let us break into LDS-speak for clarification.

    The man-on-the-street would be clueless without your clarification. I know. I've asked. When informed, the man-on-the-street routinely responds, "You're kidding, right?"

    No, I'm not.

  3. #3
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    According to LDSism, which you did not explain, "spirits" have always existed as "intelligences," a sort of primordial goo-ness of undefined nature.

    Also according to LDSism, these "intelligences" became "procreated" by Father God and Mother God where they came to exist in what's known in LDSism as the "preexistence" before taking on "tabernacles of flesh and bone" in the "mortal probation."

    Take it from there. Let us break into LDS-speak for clarification.

    The man-on-the-street would be clueless without your clarification. I know. I've asked. When informed, the man-on-the-street routinely responds, "You're kidding, right?"

    No, I'm not.
    Thanks, Russ.

    I was looking for another non-LDS to clarify the non-LDS position of Andy.

    Someone else?

  4. #4
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    Thanks, Russ.

    I was looking for another non-LDS to clarify the non-LDS position of Andy.

    Someone else?
    You're welcome, Vlad III.

    Can we get some LDS clarification on things?

  5. #5
    Senior Member Libby's Avatar
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    My understanding, which I believe is biblical...

    1) Do you believe our spirits were created at the time of Adam?
    No.

    2) If so, where were they while waiting for our physical bodies?
    They were not created yet, but God still knew about us, because he is omniscient.

    3) If not, when were our spirits created?
    I believe, when we are conceived. Our spirits are created with our bodies.
    Last edited by Libby; 10-03-2009 at 09:18 PM.

  6. #6
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libby View Post
    I believe, when we are conceived. Our spirits are created with our bodies.
    Yep, that works. nt

  7. #7
    Russ
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    Default Here's the deal, "Vlad III."

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    Thanks, Russ.

    I was looking for another non-LDS to clarify the non-LDS position of Andy.

    Someone else?
    You're a true-believing Mormon who thinks his religion offers the ultimate answers to such questions.

    Bring it to the table. If you won't, or if you can't, I'll do it for you.

  8. #8
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    Thanks, Russ.

    I was looking for another non-LDS to clarify the non-LDS position of Andy.

    Someone else?
    I do not think our spirits were formed prior to our births. This is indicated in Zechariah 12:1 which states, ". . .The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him.


    Proof texts used by LDS to try to show a pre-existence of spirits

    Jer 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

    Shows the foreknowledge of God.

    Job 38:7
    KJV--When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    NIV-- while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

    "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy: This tells us that angelic beings (here called morning stars and sons of God) did in fact witness the creation of the earth, and the rejoiced at the glory, power, and wisdom of God in the creation."
    http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/1838.htm

  9. #9
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    You're a true-believing Mormon who thinks his religion offers the ultimate answers to such questions.

    Bring it to the table. If you won't, or if you can't, I'll do it for you.
    Russ,

    With all due respect. This thread was for some clarification on what NON-LDS believe concerning the creation of spirits.

    Please don't feel the need to jump into every thread and try and preach what you believe the LDS believe - especially in a thread that is asking for the non-LDS side. If you want to do that....at least entertain the questions of the OP first.

    It is a little sad that the impression you give to many is that if someone were to meet you on a sidewalk and ask you about the hope you have in you, you would respond about why the LDS are a cult. That is your religion...we get it. But please don't chime in every thread asking for a non-LDS perspective just to give your non-LDS perspective of what the LDS perspective is.

    Thanks!

  10. #10
    Vlad III
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    So akaSeerone (aka. Andy) seems to be the only one so far that has this belief that spirits were all formed at the time of God breathing into Adam.

    And is also of the belief that there are no more prophets to be had after John the baptist.

    Do these discrepencies make Any a non-Christian? Or do they make him Heterodox? Or are these 2 examples just points that can be disagreed upon with no consequence?

  11. #11
    Russ
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    Vlad, with due respect, this is a board to do with LDSism.

    Explain LDSism or I'll do it for you.

    People have a right to know what the nice young men in white shirts are bringing with their "free Bibles."

    Libs answered well in this thread and I would have answered the same.

    Don't pretend to lecture me, SIR, with morality.

    Cultists, such as Scientologists and Mormons, hide their beliefs, such as you do, and you won't get away with it.

    You're Welcome!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    Russ,

    With all due respect. This thread was for some clarification on what NON-LDS believe concerning the creation of spirits.

    Please don't feel the need to jump into every thread and try and preach what you believe the LDS believe - especially in a thread that is asking for the non-LDS side. If you want to do that....at least entertain the questions of the OP first.

    It is a little sad that the impression you give to many is that if someone were to meet you on a sidewalk and ask you about the hope you have in you, you would respond about why the LDS are a cult. That is your religion...we get it. But please don't chime in every thread asking for a non-LDS perspective just to give your non-LDS perspective of what the LDS perspective is.

    Thanks!

  12. #12
    nrajeff
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    Russ doesn't want to clarify Andy's explanation of Russ's beliefs, because Russ doesn't understand them either.

  13. #13
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    Russ doesn't want to clarify Andy's explanation of Russ's beliefs, because Russ doesn't understand them either.
    Is that so?

    My answer is the same as Libs.

    What's going on in the "preexistence," Jeff?

    What's going on with "eternal intelligences?"

  14. #14
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad III View Post
    So akaSeerone (aka. Andy) seems to be the only one so far that has this belief that spirits were all formed at the time of God breathing into Adam.

    And is also of the belief that there are no more prophets to be had after John the baptist.

    Do these discrepencies make Any a non-Christian? Or do they make him Heterodox? Or are these 2 examples just points that can be disagreed upon with no consequence?
    What consequences would you suggest for a person who disagrees with another?

    (Keep in mind Mormons who disagree.)

  15. #15
    akaSeerone
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    It is really simple.

    God does not have to create new people, we come from our parents.

    God formed the first spirit in the man Adam by breathing into the earthen formed man and a portion of that Spirit/Breath of God is passed down and comes with the package with every new birth.

    There is no Bible for spirit babies in heaven before we come to earth.

    Andy

  16. #16
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    Vlad, with due respect, this is a board to do with LDSism.
    True. And it is not a crime for a LDS person to create a thread to understand the POV of a non-LDS person on an issue where there might be some disagreement.

    Explain LDSism or I'll do it for you.
    Feel free to create your own thread if you want to talk about the LDS position of spirit creation. That's the nice thing about a board where you can create a whole new topic if you are wont to derail the current one.

    People have a right to know what the nice young men in white shirts are bringing with their "free Bibles."
    Great! Don't I have the right to know what you, the non_LDS believe, about something? If I am asking to know what you believe, not telling me but then only telling me what you think I believe seems a bit counter-productive to helping me gain the information and to make an informed decision to leave my beliefs for yours.

    Libs answered well in this thread and I would have answered the same.
    Yeah. And thanks Libs! Russ would've answered the same....but that would've meant Russ sharing what HE believes....and that kind of gets in the way of him telling other people what they believe.

    Don't pretend to lecture me, SIR, with morality.
    No lecture. Make your owm thread if you want.

    Cultists, such as Scientologists and Mormons, hide their beliefs, such as you do, and you won't get away with it.
    Hmmm.....the irony here is I was asking what YOUR beliefs were, and instead of sharing you went for trying to tell me what I already am supposed to believe about my own religion. Who was hiding?

  17. #17
    Russ
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    Default Oh, that's good...

    Quote Originally Posted by akaSeerone View Post

    There is no Bible for spirit babies in heaven before we come to earth.

    Andy
    What is Andy talking about?

    LDSism and the preexistence, and the mortal probation, and the millennium, and the judgment, and the three levels of heaven, and the LDS goal of becoming Gods over their own planets.

    Mormons call it "Eternal Progression":

    Just look at the graphs:

    http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

  18. #18
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by akaSeerone View Post
    It is really simple.

    God does not have to create new people, we come from our parents.

    God formed the first spirit in the man Adam by breathing into the earthen formed man and a portion of that Spirit/Breath of God is passed down and comes with the package with every new birth.

    There is no Bible for spirit babies in heaven before we come to earth.

    Andy
    very interesting!!!

    I've not heard this POV before. So your belief is that God breathed the spirit into Adam, and every child that is born receives their body from their parents but also a part of that same spirit that was breathed into Adam fills that new body. So God really didn;t create us with individual spirits but we are all a part of the original spirit breathed into Adam.

    Am I understanding you correctly?

  19. #19
    akaSeerone
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    What is Andy talking about?

    LDSism and the preexistence, and the mortal probation, and the millennium, and the judgment, and the three levels of heaven, and the LDS goal of becoming Gods over their own planets.

    Mormons call it "Eternal Progression":

    Just look at the graphs:

    http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
    Man!!!

    All those sites/graphs stink of carnality and the occult.

    The spirit of darkness and deceit is so thick there I only viewed for a couple of minutes. :eek

    Andy

  20. #20
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by akaSeerone View Post
    It is really simple.
    God does not have to create new people, we come from our parents.
    God formed the first spirit in the man Adam by breathing into the earthen formed man and a portion of that Spirit/Breath of God is passed down and comes with the package with every new birth.
    --But Russ believes that it was JESUS who created ALL things, all spirits, all demons, all persons including Adam and Eve, anyone who ever lived or will live, whether in heaven or on Earth. But you say "God" did it. Which of you is wrong?

  21. #21
    akaSeerone
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    Do we all look alike? No....so why should we have the same exact spirit?

    Never-the-less our spirits originated through God breathing into Adam.

    Andy

  22. #22
    akaSeerone
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    Jesus is God.

    John the 1st chapter.

    Andy

  23. #23
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by akaSeerone View Post
    Do we all look alike? No....so why should we have the same exact spirit?

    Never-the-less our spirits originated through God breathing into Adam.

    Andy
    um...okay.

    Thanks.

  24. #24
    Russ
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    --But Russ believes that it was JESUS who created ALL things, all spirits, all demons, all persons including Adam and Eve, anyone who ever lived or will live, whether in heaven or on Earth. But you say "God" did it. Which of you is wrong?
    Jesus is God made manifest in the flesh. The Word, John 1:1 and 1:14.

  25. #25
    Vlad III
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ View Post
    Jesus is God made manifest in the flesh. The Word, John 1:1 and 1:14.
    But I thought you said that Jesus was the Father incarnate?

    cfgsuoiwpspd <-----(THAT's what a slip-of-the-keyboard looks like)

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