Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst ... 56789
Results 201 to 218 of 218

Thread: Can Someone Help? Spirit Creation

  1. #201
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    8,939

    Default

    In the end, there is nothing in the Bible that supports the idea that my spirit is older than my body....

    Thus because there is nothing in the Bible to support that idea I can not teach it....where the Bible is mute, I dont speak for it.



    This is why I dont support other non-Christian ideas like reincarnation...or that Im made of 9 different souls....

    If the Bible does not teach something I cant support it by just saying, "Well the Bible does not say you dont have 9 different souls"





    There is no limit to the things the Bible does not talk about...so we cant use the lack of a teaching in the Text as allowing that teaching.
    The lack of support is not support
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  2. #202
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,291

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    In the end, there is nothing in the Bible that supports the idea that my spirit is older than my body....

    Thus because there is nothing in the Bible to support that idea I can not teach it....where the Bible is mute, I dont speak for it.
    I believe that is fair enough.

    But the Bible does testify God is the Father of spirits:

    Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    And the spirits are the offspring of God:

    Acts 17:29--King James Version (KJV)
    29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

    You can support that idea?

  3. #203
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    8,939

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I believe that is fair enough.

    But the Bible does testify God is the Father of spirits:

    Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    And the spirits are the offspring of God:

    Acts 17:29--King James Version (KJV)
    29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

    You can support that idea?
    The ACTS verse is making the point that we are children of God by "adoption" and not by nature...
    This is because we are grafted into the family though adoption.

    When the Bible talks about God being the "father" of anyone, this is a term that talks about the relationship in love that God has for us..

    God is also the "Creator" of all things...but he is the "Father" to only they that he has a good relationship with.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  4. #204
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    8,939

    Default

    Now as for the idea that our "spirit" is older than
    our flesh?...That idea is simply not found in the Bible at all.

    There is not even a hint its true in even the slightest way.


    Thus I can NOT support that idea at all as it has no grounding in the Bible.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 12-10-2016 at 09:53 AM.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  5. #205
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,291

    Default

    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post I believe that is fair enough.

    But the Bible does testify God is the Father of spirits:

    Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    And the spirits are the offspring of God:

    Acts 17:29--King James Version (KJV)
    29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

    You can support that idea?
    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The ACTS verse is making the point that we are children of God by "adoption" and not by nature...
    Since Paul was addressing heathens as inclusive in the "we" in Acts17:29--I don't believe you are going to make your point there.

    And secondly--the "adoption" occurs years after the spirit inhabits the flesh. The adoption in no way accounts for the existence of the spirit--only a point in time far past the presence of the spirit within us.

    And neither does the adoption account for the fact those who are never adopted--still have a spirit in them Fathered by God the Father.

    When the Bible talks about God being the "father" of anyone, this is a term that talks about the relationship in love that God has for us..
    Hebrews 12:9 has a context in mind:

    Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    It refers to fathers of the flesh--and Father of spirits. Those both are paternal terms applied to the fathering of flesh--and the Fathering of spirits.

    God is also the "Creator" of all things...but he is the "Father" to only they that he has a good relationship with.
    So, Alan--if God the Father is not the Father of all the spirits in men--then could you explain to us what God you believe Fathers the remainder of the spirits?

    Ecclesiastes 12:7---King James Version (KJV)
    7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    Where do we find a distinction there?

  6. #206
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Posts
    148

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Since Paul was addressing heathens as inclusive in the "we" in Acts17:29--I don't believe you are going to make your point there.

    And secondly--the "adoption" occurs years after the spirit inhabits the flesh. The adoption in no way accounts for the existence of the spirit--only a point in time far past the presence of the spirit within us.

    And neither does the adoption account for the fact those who are never adopted--still have a spirit in them Fathered by God the Father.



    Hebrews 12:9 has a context in mind:

    Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    It refers to fathers of the flesh--and Father of spirits. Those both are paternal terms applied to the fathering of flesh--and the Fathering of spirits.



    So, Alan--if God the Father is not the Father of all the spirits in men--then could you explain to us what God you believe Fathers the remainder of the spirits?

    Ecclesiastes 12:7---King James Version (KJV)
    7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    Where do we find a distinction there?
    Well, it won't be found in the nonsense Mormons call exegesis, which is not exegesis but eisegesis. And there is a big difference.

    The distinction is that Mormons misuse the Bible by taking verses out of context to prove Mormon doctrines. I assume this is because the Book of Mormon does not teach any Mormon doctrines so they have to fall back on the Bible, which Joseph Smith insists is corrupt and not reliable. Using a corrupt and unreliable source as "proof text" for Mormon doctrines, is laughable.

    But this fact doesn't stop Mormons from using the Bible as proof text, and a club to mock and confuse Christians by taking verses out of context and then asking Christians to explain the false dilemmas they seem to present. This is disingenuous. Unfortunately there are a lot of ignorant Christians out there for Mormons to mock and confuse with this unChristianlike ruse. But we're not all ignorant of your methods.

    The Bible says we become God’s children when we are saved because we are adopted into God’s family through our relationship with Jesus Christ (Galatians 4:5-6; Ephesians 1:5). This can be clearly seen in verses like Romans 8:14-17: “…because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, ‘Abba, Father.’ The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.” Those who are saved are children “of God through faith in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:26) because God has “predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will” (Ephesians 1:5).

    When speaking of "children of God, the Bible is clear that all people are God’s creation (Colossians 1:16), and that God loves the entire world (John 3:16), but only those who are born again are children of God (John 1:12; 11:52; Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1-10). Consequently, Mormons are not children of God, but instead, Christians who rely on faith alone are adopted children of God.

    In Scripture, the lost are never referred to as God’s children. Ephesians 2:3 tells us that before we were saved we were “by nature objects of wrath” (Ephesians 2:1-3).

    Romans 9:8 says that “it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.” Instead of being born as God’s children, we are born in sin, which separates us from God and aligns us with Satan as God’s enemy (James 4:4; 1 John 3:8). Jesus said, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me” (John 8:42). Then a few verses later in John 8:44, Jesus told the Pharisees that they “belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire.”

    The fact that those who are not saved are not children of God is also seen in 1 John 3:10: “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.” (paraphrased from gotquestions.org)

    I hope that clears up the confusion about what it means to be a "child of God" from a Biblical perspective. Of course Mormons falsely believe that their god sired all of mankind carnally, and they can believe that if they like, but the Bible (in context) clearly does not teach that doctrine. It clearly teaches that we are adopted sons of God, but not in a literal sense as Mormon doctrine falsely teaches. Mormons can cause the Bible to appear to say that men are literal sons of God, but in context and with a proper exegesis, the Scriptures Mormons post to prove that, simply do not apply.

  7. #207
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    8,939

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Berean View Post

    I hope that clears up the confusion about what it means to be a "child of God" from a Biblical perspective. Of course Mormons falsely believe that their god sired all of mankind carnally, and they can believe that if they like, but the Bible (in context) clearly does not teach that doctrine. It clearly teaches that we are adopted sons of God, but not in a literal sense as Mormon doctrine falsely teaches. Mormons can cause the Bible to appear to say that men are literal sons of God, but in context and with a proper exegesis, the Scriptures Mormons post to prove that, simply do not apply.
    well reasoned comment on the issue
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  8. #208
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,291

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Berean View Post
    I hope that clears up the confusion about what it means to be a "child of God" from a Biblical perspective. Of course Mormons falsely believe that their god sired all of mankind carnally, and they can believe that if they like, but the Bible (in context) clearly does not teach that doctrine. It clearly teaches that we are adopted sons of God, but not in a literal sense as Mormon doctrine falsely teaches.
    The spirits which inhabit man's mortal body were in the body long before the adoption occurred.

    And the spirits are in the body whether the adoption occurs at all.

    Berean--the adoption does nothing to account for the origins of the spirit.

    This does:

    Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    As Jesus Christ testified to--He shares the same Father and God as mankind--as to the spirit:

    John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
    17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

  9. #209
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,291

    Default

    Originally Posted by Berean View Post I hope that clears up the confusion about what it means to be a "child of God" from a Biblical perspective. Of course Mormons falsely believe that their god sired all of mankind carnally, and they can believe that if they like, but the Bible (in context) clearly does not teach that doctrine. It clearly teaches that we are adopted sons of God, but not in a literal sense as Mormon doctrine falsely teaches.
    The spirits which inhabit man's mortal body were in the body long before the adoption occurred.

    And the spirits are in the body whether the adoption occurs at all.

    Berean--the adoption does nothing to account for the origins of the spirit.

    This does:

    Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    As Jesus Christ testified to--He shares the same Father and God as mankind--as to the spirit:

    John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
    17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Anyone?

  10. #210
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    8,939

    Default

    there is not a single verse in the whole bible that even hints that our spirit is older than out body....thats a non-Bible Mormon idea that lacks support in the text...
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  11. #211
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,291

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    there is not a single verse in the whole bible that even hints that our spirit is older than out body....thats a non-Bible Mormon idea that lacks support in the text...
    Whatever one believes about the age or origin of one's spirit--the adoption does nothing to explain it's origin:

    The spirits which inhabit man's mortal body were in the body long before the adoption occurred.

    And the spirits are in the body whether the adoption occurs at all.

    This does explain the origin of the spirits:

    Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    As Jesus Christ testified to--He shares the same Father and God as mankind--as to the spirit:

    John 20:17---King James Version (KJV)
    17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Was it not the God and Father of Jesus Christ?

    1 Peter 1:3---King James Version (KJV)
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

  12. #212
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    8,939

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Whatever one believes about the age or origin of one's spirit--.....,
    I am only concerned here with the age of my spirit.

    There is not a single verse in the whole Bible that even slightly hints that my spirit is even one split-second older than my body.




    This is why whenever anyone tried to suggest to me that our souls or spirit or whatever are older I just smile....for they have had to base their views on dreams/myths/and movie scrips and not on the holy text of the Bible...


    My views are built on a firm foundation of truth and Bible fact.

    The view that men's spirits were around before our flesh is built on lies.





    That is why Im right, and the others are wrong.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  13. #213
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,291

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I am only concerned here with the age of my spirit.
    That's all well and good--regardless--that has no play on the fact the scriptures testify God the Father is the Father of spirits--and they His offspring:

    Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)
    29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

    So--is that some spirits--or all spirits?

  14. #214
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    8,939

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    So--is that some spirits--or all spirits?

    Depends on the context silly.

    The Lord is the creator of all things...spirits too.

    But the Lord is only the Father to they whom he has a relationship with.

    This is why God was not the "Father" to the people that were fighting against Jesus , and Jesus told this to their faces.




    In the modern world I would say that while God is my Father, he is not the "father" to the people who are in the world of the CULTS....(like the Mormons and JWs)
    He is not their father, he does not have a relationship with them, they are at odds with God and his Son.



    Who is their "Father"?
    Satan.......and thats not just my view that what the Bible says!
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 07-28-2017 at 12:04 PM.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  15. #215
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    8,939

    Default

    I like how when I bring up the fact that while God is the creator of all things, he is only the father of they who have a relationship with him , it tends to calm down the Mormons...

    They know that Bible clearly says that Satan is the father of some people, they just dont like the Bible saying that out loud I guess....
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  16. #216
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,291

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    some people understand the story of the creation of Adam to be a hint as to all of us are created.
    In the story Adam's body of dust is created, and God breathed into this body and Adam became a living soul.

    If this is correct way to understand the concept, it means that a man's body is created before his spirit...
    I would modify that to say the body is created before the spirit inhabits the mortal body. That in no way determines whether the spirit was Fathered after the creation of the body--or before.

    In the case of Jesus Christ--the Spirit was present long before the body was present. The spirit will be present prior to the resurrected body. That pattern may not prove anything--but it does provide some insights into the patterns set, as to the spirit and the body.

    Jeremiah 1:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
    4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
    5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

  17. #217
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,291

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I like how when I bring up the fact that while God is the creator of all things, he is only the father of they who have a relationship with him ,
    Just an addendum to that thought--to have a relationship with God--that would mean you were years down the road from birth.

    The spirit was already in the body years prior to that point, IE--your point does nothing to account for the origins of the spirit.

    This does:

    Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)
    29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

  18. #218
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    8,939

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    I would modify that to say the body is created before the spirit inhabits the mortal body..
    while at my death my spirit will be away from my body....there is not a line in the Bible to support the view that my spirit is even one second younger or older than my body....
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •