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Thread: Can Someone Help? Spirit Creation

  1. #151
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Arbitrary standard here, Marvin. You don't need specific scripture to "prove" Mormon POLYTHEISM.

    It's right there in the FABRIC of your religion.
    Then show it. Otherwise, stop bloviating.

    If we are polytheistic then we should follow the pattern that other religions that are polytheistic follow. Name the other Gods and their relationships and include something of their escapades. Otherwise admit that we don't follow the pattern and you are misusing the word.

    Marin

  2. #152
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    Then show it. Name the other Gods and their relationships and include something of their escapades.

    Marin
    Encyclopedia of Mormonism
    Godhead
    "Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2)."
    http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Godhead


    Polytheism
    Main Entry: poly·the·ism
    Pronunciation: \ˈpä-lē-(ˌ)thē-ˌi-zəm\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god
    Date: 1613
    Belief in or worship of more than one god
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism

  3. #153
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Encyclopedia of Mormonism
    Godhead
    "Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2)."
    http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Godhead


    Polytheism
    Main Entry: poly·the·ism
    Pronunciation: \ˈpä-lē-(ˌ)thē-ˌi-zəm\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god
    Date: 1613
    Belief in or worship of more than one god
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism
    What have you shown? Not what I asked for!! Again you have posted a non-answer. We both believe in these 3. The difference is in how we believe about them. Don't forget that the Jews reject all of the illogic you use to define these three as 1 God and say that you are polytheistic.

    Again I ask, show me from the scriptures, the names of the Gods that we worship other than the ones we have in common, their relationships and their escapades. This is the pattern of polytheistic religions all over the world. If you want to accuse us of being polytheistic then show us the evidence.

    We worship the Father in the name of Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost. We pray to the Father in the name of Christ as Christ instructed. And we bear testimony of Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost just as the Apostles did in Acts. So we don't worship all three but we do as Christ instructed. If that is polytheism then you are polytheistic also.

    Marvin

  4. #154
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    What have you shown? Not what I asked for!! Again you have posted a non-answer. We both believe in these 3. The difference is in how we believe about them. Don't forget that the Jews reject all of the illogic you use to define these three as 1 God and say that you are polytheistic.
    Marvin
    Marvin, do you believe in one God or many gods?


    Don't forget my reference, this may help you.

    Encyclopedia of Mormonism
    Godhead
    "Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2)."
    http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Godhead

  5. #155
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    So we don't worship all three but we do as Christ instructed.
    Marvin
    So you only worship God the Father? How about Jesus, do you worship him?

  6. #156
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    So you only worship God the Father? How about Jesus, do you worship him?
    What was Christ's instruction?

    Marvin

  7. #157
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    What was Christ's instruction?

    Marvin
    We are commanded to worship the Lord our God and Him only.. Jesus is YHWH, the Lord our God!!! He accepted worship from Thomas as such, I offer Him the same. He is My Lord and My God (John 20:28).. IHS jim

  8. #158
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    What was Christ's instruction?

    Marvin
    Marvin, you don't really follow what the Bible teaches, that is why I asked you what YOU believe. You have a hard time directly answering a question. Here it is again if you choose to answer it.

    So you only worship God the Father? How about Jesus, do you worship him?

  9. #159
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Marvin, you don't really follow what the Bible teaches, that is why I asked you what YOU believe. You have a hard time directly answering a question. Here it is again if you choose to answer it.

    So you only worship God the Father? How about Jesus, do you worship him?
    I learned from you how to avoid a direct answer by asking questions. I have yet to see you answer any question directly without asking some other question that has very little to do with the post you are suppose to be addressing.

    Marvin

  10. #160
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    We are commanded to worship the Lord our God and Him only.. Jesus is YHWH, the Lord our God!!! He accepted worship from Thomas as such, I offer Him the same. He is My Lord and My God (John 20:28).. IHS jim
    I asked what was Christ's instruction not what the commandment is.

    And Christ's instruction: In that day, ye shall ask me nothing but whatsoever you ask the Father in my name, which is right, that ye shall receive.

    So who are we to worship? Christ said it was the Father. Do you have a higher authority to contradict this instruction?

    Marvin

  11. #161
    ATX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    I asked what was Christ's instruction not what the commandment is.

    And Christ's instruction: In that day, ye shall ask me nothing but whatsoever you ask the Father in my name, which is right, that ye shall receive.

    So who are we to worship? Christ said it was the Father. Do you have a higher authority to contradict this instruction?

    Marvin
    I realize what a hard/confusing subject this is for mormons. On one hand , the mormon 'party-line' is exactly what you are saying, yet on the other hand, the mormonjesus is worshipped in the bom and declared as worshipped by many of your leaders. I know, I know-"what's a good mormon to do"?

    Marvin, the reason we, Christians that is, pray in Jesus's Name is because without Him, we cannot come before God. It is thru Christ that we are able to "come boldly unto the throne of grace". This "instruction", as you put it, doesn't say anything about worshipping only The Father.

  12. #162
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    I asked what was Christ's instruction not what the commandment is.

    And Christ's instruction: In that day, ye shall ask me nothing but whatsoever you ask the Father in my name, which is right, that ye shall receive.

    So who are we to worship? Christ said it was the Father. Do you have a higher authority to contradict this instruction?

    Marvin
    Is this the p***age you are speaking of for your authority?
    John 4:23-24
    But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
    God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Does this p***age say we aren't to worship Jesus or the Holy Spirit? No it says when true worshipers worship the Father (Who is a Spirit) they must worship in spirit and in truth.. Mormonism denies that the Father is Spirit how then can their worship be in spirit or truth? You may as well call the god of Mormonism just what it is, Baal worship.. After all Baal had a body, a wife, and offspring.. He is must be the mormon god..

    As Christians have said many times you give the name of Jesus to anything from a flower in your garden to the tin Lizzy in the garage. In your case you ***ign this name to a being you give limitations and lesser status to as a god than you are willing to give to the Father.. You actually say that Jesus became a God after the Father was already there and God. This is just what Isaiah 43:10 says would NOT happen it says that "No God will be formed after Him.." But ignore what the Bible teaches.

    Ignore and twist shift from what it says to what you want it to say. I have pointed out one this channel a few times the verses mormonism uses to point to it's self as the only true church and yet those verse DON'T say what the church teach they say Look again at Ezek 37:16-22. God interpreters the p***age for us right there in the text.. And Isaiah 29:11-12 where even the unlearned man can't read the book. But mormonism have twisted this to be a prophecies of the BofM not what God actually intended.. In short a stick is a stick it is not a scroll.. Then a scroll is mentioned it is stated to be a scroll. Never anywhere in the bible is the word of God said to be a stick.. So what was done to these p***ages.. TWISTED, having men who know nothing about Biblical ways or times forcing their modern reason into it making them to say what they want hem to say instead of just allowing God to teach us..
    So who does Mormonism hold to be God? Just an idol formed in the mind of a 19th century man.. IHS jim

  13. #163
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    I asked what was Christ's instruction not what the commandment is.

    And Christ's instruction: In that day, ye shall ask me nothing but whatsoever you ask the Father in my name, which is right, that ye shall receive.

    So who are we to worship? Christ said it was the Father. Do you have a higher authority to contradict this instruction?

    Marvin
    Just what is a commandment but an instruction to do and live the way that is acceptable to God? Yes Jesus said to worship the Father. The Father is God after all.. In saying this Jesus didn't tell us NOT to worship Him. As I have shown He accepted worship from Thomas without rebuke.. The Holy Spirit is also God and I have praised Him and worshiped Him often for the gifts He has given me and the direction and comfort He brings to my life.. He is Great and greatly to be praised.. For He is God, all the God there is or ever can be.. He is the Being by which the earthy Body of Jesus was conceived.. He is the the Mighty God the Everlasting Father.. He is God.. I will always bow the keen to Him, Pray to Him and worship Him...

    While I obey Jesus is worshiping the Father. I obey the Commandment to worship and Honor God and worship Him only.. He is The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is the YHWH my God.. There is no other.. IHS jim

  14. #164
    Russianwolfe
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    Wrong scripture!!! And here am I, a mere mormon, to have to teach you about the Bible? Who'd o' thunk it!!!!

    Marvin


    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Is this the p***age you are speaking of for your authority?
    John 4:23-24
    But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
    God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Does this p***age say we aren't to worship Jesus or the Holy Spirit? No it says when true worshipers worship the Father (Who is a Spirit) they must worship in spirit and in truth.. Mormonism denies that the Father is Spirit how then can their worship be in spirit or truth? You may as well call the god of Mormonism just what it is, Baal worship.. After all Baal had a body, a wife, and offspring.. He is must be the mormon god..

    As Christians have said many times you give the name of Jesus to anything from a flower in your garden to the tin Lizzy in the garage. In your case you ***ign this name to a being you give limitations and lesser status to as a god than you are willing to give to the Father.. You actually say that Jesus became a God after the Father was already there and God. This is just what Isaiah 43:10 says would NOT happen it says that "No God will be formed after Him.." But ignore what the Bible teaches.

    Ignore and twist shift from what it says to what you want it to say. I have pointed out one this channel a few times the verses mormonism uses to point to it's self as the only true church and yet those verse DON'T say what the church teach they say Look again at Ezek 37:16-22. God interpreters the p***age for us right there in the text.. And Isaiah 29:11-12 where even the unlearned man can't read the book. But mormonism have twisted this to be a prophecies of the BofM not what God actually intended.. In short a stick is a stick it is not a scroll.. Then a scroll is mentioned it is stated to be a scroll. Never anywhere in the bible is the word of God said to be a stick.. So what was done to these p***ages.. TWISTED, having men who know nothing about Biblical ways or times forcing their modern reason into it making them to say what they want hem to say instead of just allowing God to teach us..
    So who does Mormonism hold to be God? Just an idol formed in the mind of a 19th century man.. IHS jim

  15. #165
    Russianwolfe
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    So then you are polytheistic!!!! You have just demonstrated a perfect polytheistic mind-set. Worship each God for the things he and he alone has done for you!!!! I don't think the pot can call the kettle black anymore.

    Marvin


    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Just what is a commandment but an instruction to do and live the way that is acceptable to God? Yes Jesus said to worship the Father. The Father is God after all.. In saying this Jesus didn't tell us NOT to worship Him. As I have shown He accepted worship from Thomas without rebuke.. The Holy Spirit is also God and I have praised Him and worshiped Him often for the gifts He has given me and the direction and comfort He brings to my life.. He is Great and greatly to be praised.. For He is God, all the God there is or ever can be.. He is the Being by which the earthy Body of Jesus was conceived.. He is the the Mighty God the Everlasting Father.. He is God.. I will always bow the keen to Him, Pray to Him and worship Him...

    While I obey Jesus is worshiping the Father. I obey the Commandment to worship and Honor God and worship Him only.. He is The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is the YHWH my God.. There is no other.. IHS jim

  16. #166
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    Wrong scripture!!! And here am I, a mere mormon, to have to teach you about the Bible? Who'd o' thunk it!!!!

    Marvin
    Interesting that I am willing to step out and quote the scripture that may have something to do with you were talking about, that is if it is given the incorrect spin.. But you who are saying that the Bible supports what you are saying will not put the authority of the Bible behind your perverted statements.. I have debunked the idea that the Father is the Only God to be worship in the verse I gave and all you could do was say "Nope not the verse I was thinking of".. Well come out and do some teaching if you have a truth from the Bible that supports your position if not we will understand... We will understand that you don't know what you are talking about!! You said I need you to teach me but there is no teaching here just a remark that I can't read your mind.. SO TEACH..

    I have shown you that mormonism has twisted the Bible to say what it wants it to say and not what it says.. You won't even defend the perverse of LDS doctrine. I can only say that's because there is no defence.. IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 10-18-2009 at 10:17 AM.

  17. #167
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    So then you are polytheistic!!!! You have just demonstrated a perfect polytheistic mind-set. Worship each God for the things he and he alone has done for you!!!! I don't think the pot can call the kettle black anymore.

    Marvin
    Not one thing I said in my post was in any way polytheistic in fact I said clearly that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are that one true God the YHWH.. That is clearly monotheistic. No admission from me that:

    That the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural; and who can contradict it? (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1843–44, p. 370-373)

    These are the gods of mormonism not the God of the Christian Church.. How you said my remarks are polythistic is just your mormon misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Trinity.. IHS jim

  18. #168
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Not one thing I said in my post was in any way polytheistic in fact I said clearly that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are that one true God the YHWH.. That is clearly monotheistic. No admission from me that:

    That the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost cons***ute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural; and who can contradict it? (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1843–44, p. 370-373)

    These are the gods of mormonism not the God of the Christian Church.. How you said my remarks are polythistic is just your mormon misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Trinity.. IHS jim
    You can deny it all you want, but what you said, inspite of the codicil at the end, was a perfect polytheistic statement. No matter how you squirm and dodge, what you said was polytheistic.

    As I have described before, all power and authority come from God the Father. Jesus is not God because of himself but because of the power and authority that was given to him by the Father. The same for the Holy Ghost. We worship the Father. The Plan of Salvation is the Father's plan. We are his children and all things that we have and receive are from him. That is the God we worship. The mediator between God and man is Jesus Christ and has been ever since the Fall. It is in his name that we worship the Father. The Holy Ghost is the testator of the covenant and is such by the authority and power of the Father. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost, such power as the Father has given him, that we worship the Father. And as Christ has instructed, we ask Christ nothing, but we ask the Father in the name of Jesus Christ for that which is right.

    If this is polytheistic then you are also polytheistic.

    Marvin

  19. #169
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    Then show it. Otherwise, stop bloviating.

    If we are polytheistic then we should follow the pattern that other religions that are polytheistic follow. Name the other Gods and their relationships and include something of their escapades. Otherwise admit that we don't follow the pattern and you are misusing the word.

    Marin
    Your games will not work here, Marvin.

    Do you believe God the Father HAD A GOD?

    Yes or no?

    Do you believe that you, too will be a GOD someday?

    Yes or no.

    We both know the answers are YES to both questions.

    Ergo, you ARE polytheistic.

  20. #170
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Your games will not work here, Marvin.

    Do you believe God the Father HAD A GOD?

    Yes or no?

    Do you believe that you, too will be a GOD someday?

    Yes or no.

    We both know the answers are YES to both questions.

    Ergo, you ARE polytheistic.
    You made the accusation, so now I am asking for you to provide the proof in the pattern that all other polytheistic religions have followed. Your questions don't matter because you have yet to provide any evidence that your accusation is true.

    Marvin

  21. #171
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    You made the accusation, so now I am asking for you to provide the proof in the pattern that all other polytheistic religions have followed. Your questions don't matter because you have yet to provide any evidence that your accusation is true.

    Marvin
    Marvin, I have given you proof on a number occasions but you have completely ignored it. Mormonism is a polytheistic religion by definition, because you believe in more than one god.

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Encyclopedia of Mormonism
    Godhead
    "Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2)."
    http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Godhead


    Polytheism
    Main Entry: poly·the·ism
    Pronunciation: \ˈpä-lē-(ˌ)thē-ˌi-zəm\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: French polytheisme, from Late Greek polytheos polytheistic, from Greek, of many gods, from poly- + theos god
    Date: 1613
    Belief in or worship of more than one god
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism

  22. #172
    James Banta
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    [Russianwolfe;35306]You can deny it all you want, but what you said, inspite of the codicil at the end, was a perfect polytheistic statement. No matter how you squirm and dodge, what you said was polytheistic.
    This is what you call polytheistic:
    Yes Jesus said to worship the Father. The Father is God after all.. In saying this Jesus didn't tell us NOT to worship Him. As I have shown He accepted worship from Thomas without rebuke.. The Holy Spirit is also God and I have praised Him and worshiped Him often for the gifts He has given me and the direction and comfort He brings to my life.. He is Great and greatly to be praised.. For He is God, all the God there is or ever can be.. He is the Person by which the earthy Body of Jesus was conceived.. He is the the Mighty God the Everlasting Father.. He is God.. I will always bow the keen to Him, Pray to Him and worship Him... While I obey Jesus in worshiping the Father. I obey the Commandment to worship and Honor God and worship Him only.. He is The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.. He is the YHWH my God.. There is no other..
    I guess calling my statement polytheistic is why you don't see polytheism in mormonism..


    As I have described before, all power and authority come from God the Father.
    Jesus is not God because of himself but because of the power and authority that was given to him by the Father. The same for the Holy Ghost.
    We worship the Father. The Plan of Salvation is the Father's plan. We are his children and all things that we have and receive are from him. That is the God we worship. The mediator between God and man is Jesus Christ and has been ever since the Fall. It is in his name that we worship the Father. The Holy Ghost is the testator of the covenant and is such by the authority and power of the Father. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost, such power as the Father has given him, that we worship the Father. And as Christ has instructed, we ask Christ nothing, but we ask the Father in the name of Jesus Christ for that which is right.
    By this you are showing that you believe that the Father was God before Jesus, before the Holy Spirit and they became Gods after the Father existed.. This is in direct violation to what God told us in Isaiah 43:10: No God will be formed after me.. or in Isaiah 44:8 that God knows of no other God but Himself.. You say that He created Jesus and the Holy Spirit, yet He is not aware that they have become Gods inspite of His ***ertion that there are no others.. Never mind what God says He must be dumb.. At least the God of the mormons is.. He lies about the formation of other Gods then doesn't know that He created them..

    We, mankind were born as a special creation with an inborn longing for God.. But to become a child of God required an act of God's grace and a faith that He gives to us. When we turn (repent) to Him acknowledging who we are before Him, and Who He is in the Universe, He regenerates us and adopts us and we are spiritually born of Him, and we truly are His children heirs of His Kingdom.. Without that death awaits us as does the Lake of Fire..

    If this is polytheistic then you are also polytheistic
    If you can call Joseph Smith wrong saying that there are three Gods. If you reject the idea for all time that you will have any opportunity to EVER be a God like the Father. If you reject the idea that God was ever a mortal man who had a God who created (organized) him then I will take back my belief that you are a polytheist. If you hold those idea as truth then you are nothing like me. You are a polytheist... I am a Trinitarian.. I teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, though being three separate Persons are one Being, ONE GOD...

    IHS jim
    Last edited by James Banta; 10-18-2009 at 08:48 PM.

  23. #173
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Your games will not work here, Marvin.

    Do you believe God the Father HAD A GOD?

    Yes or no?

    Do you believe that you, too will be a GOD someday?

    Yes or no.

    We both know the answers are YES to both questions.

    Ergo, you ARE polytheistic.
    He doesn't even need to go that far.. He believe Joseph Smith that the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are three Gods... That is enough to be called a polytheist.. If Marvin wants to say that Smith lied and that these three Persons are one Being, ONE God that would be different but that is not mormonism. That is not Marvin.. Marvin believes that Smith was a prophet not a liar.. IHS jim

  24. #174
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russianwolfe View Post
    You can deny it all you want, but what you said, inspite of the codicil at the end, was a perfect polytheistic statement. No matter how you squirm and dodge, what you said was polytheistic.

    As I have described before, all power and authority come from God the Father. Jesus is not God because of himself but because of the power and authority that was given to him by the Father. The same for the Holy Ghost. We worship the Father. The Plan of Salvation is the Father's plan. We are his children and all things that we have and receive are from him. That is the God we worship. The mediator between God and man is Jesus Christ and has been ever since the Fall. It is in his name that we worship the Father. The Holy Ghost is the testator of the covenant and is such by the authority and power of the Father. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost, such power as the Father has given him, that we worship the Father. And as Christ has instructed, we ask Christ nothing, but we ask the Father in the name of Jesus Christ for that which is right.

    If this is polytheistic then you are also polytheistic.

    Marvin
    Since you won't do it let me show you the difference in these English terms..
    Polytheist:
    the doctrine of or belief in more than one god or in many gods.
    Trinitarian
    a person who believes in the doctrine of the Trinity. The Trinity is the union of three Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) in one threefold personality of the one Divine Being.

    I don't disrespect you for not knowing the difference.. IHS jim

  25. #175
    Russianwolfe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    Marvin, I have given you proof on a number occasions but you have completely ignored it. Mormonism is a polytheistic religion by definition, because you believe in more than one god.
    It is not that simple. I asked that you provide evidence for your claim in the pattern of polytheistic religions the world over, not just a simple general defintion. If we are polytheistic then show me the evidence that fulfills the request I have made. Else we are not polytheistic as you claim.

    Marvin

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