Sneaky Departure

[Saxon]

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

From the Greek Language, “apostasia”, the English word “apostasy” is derived. Apostasia: defection, desert, forsake. It also has the idea of a “sneaky departure”

Apostasy is an English term. The English word, apostasy has an English definition. Apostasy: Abandonment of religious faith, vows, principles or party.

Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Look at the two verses above. The bold words are apostasia. Act 21:21 says Moses was forsaken. 2Th 2:3 does not say what was fallen away from. The Greek word requires that what is forsaken or fallen away from be mentioned or no one reading the statement will know

Within the definition of, the English term, apostasy, what is being abandoned is in the definition, religious faith, vows, principles or party. The two terms are not interchangeable.

The context of the opening scripture is the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto him.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ********, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Given the context of the opening scripture and the definition of “apostasia”, the opening scripture, “2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” is referring to per-tribulation rapture. Falling away from the Earth??

[Leslie]

I'm sorry, you lost me.

[Saxon]

I'm sorry, you lost me.

This is a discussion of the pre-tribulation Rapture using 2Thessalonians chapter 2 and an explanation and comparison of the Greek term “apostasia” and the English word “apostasy” to establish the fact that the Rapture is, in fact, a pre-tribulation Rapture.

[Leslie]

I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, but I don't think that this passage refers to it. Rather, I think it's talking about an end-time great apostasy which I see happening today. People departing the faith and either becoming so liberal as to become heretical or just leaving it alltogether.

[Saxon]

I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, but I don't think that this passage refers to it. Rather, I think it's talking about an end-time great apostasy which I see happening today. People departing the faith and either becoming so liberal as to become heretical or just leaving it alltogether.

From the Greek Language, “apostasia”, the English word “apostasy” is derived. Apostasia: defection, desert, forsake. It also has the idea of a “sneaky departure”

Apostasy is an English term. The English word, apostasy has an English definition. Apostasy: Abandonment of religious faith, vows, principles or party.

Check the definitions of the Greek “apostasia” and the English “apostasy” and you will see that they are two different words that mean two different things and are not interchangeable. Re-read the original post and see if you can see what I am saying. Thanks

[Leslie]

From the Greek Language, “apostasia”, the English word “apostasy” is derived. Apostasia: defection, desert, forsake. It also has the idea of a “sneaky departure”

Apostasy is an English term. The English word, apostasy has an English definition. Apostasy: Abandonment of religious faith, vows, principles or party.

Check the definitions of the Greek “apostasia” and the English “apostasy” and you will see that they are two different words that mean two different things and are not interchangeable. Re-read the original post and see if you can see what I am saying. Thanks

Apostasia: defection, desert, forsake.

That sounds alot like what Apostasy is supposed to mean to me. I think that you're only dwelling on the "sneaky departure" aspect, which could still mean what the others suggest.

[Saxon]

Apostasia: defection, desert, forsake.

That sounds alot like what Apostasy is supposed to mean to me. I think that you're only dwelling on the "sneaky departure" aspect, which could still mean what the others suggest.

Look again.

From the Greek Language, , the English word “apostasy” is derived. Apostasia: defection, desert, forsake. It also has the idea of a “sneaky departure”

Apostasy is an English term. The English word, apostasy has an English definition. Apostasy: Abandonment of religious faith, vows, principles or party.

Notice that the English term “apostasy” is an abandonment of religious faith; abandonment of vows; abandonment of principles; abandonment of party. What you abandon is part of the definition.

The Greek term “apostasia” is defection, with nothing else required in the definition.

The Greek term “apostasia” is desert, with nothing else required in the definition.

The Greek term “apostasia” is forsake, with nothing else required in the definition.

With the English term “apostasy” there is a restriction as to what is abandoned to remain true to the English term. If you were to abandon your family, that does not conform the English term “apostasy”. Apostasy has not been committed when you abandon your family.

If you were to forsake your family, this would fit the Greek term “apostasia”. If you were to forsake your family, this would be apostasia in Greek terminology.

The two terms are functionally different while maintaining a similarity to an extremely restrictive point.

The two times that the Bible uses the Greek term “apostasia”, only once does the text mention what is being forsaken. Acts 21:21 is accusing Paul of teaching the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses.

The second occurrence is 2Thessalonians 2:3 the context is dealing with the day of Christ and the revealing of the man of sin. The falling away is not necessarily “falling away from the faith”, as is the most popular interpretation of this verse. The Greek text and the English text do not say what is being fallen away from.

2Thessalonians 2:6 to 8 continues speaking of what withholds that he (the man of sin) might be revealed in his time. There are two thoughts on this that I am aware of. The Church is what is withholding or the Holy Spirit is what is withholding. If the Holy Spirit is what is taken out of the way then the Church will go also. The comforter will not leave the church that he is comforting. (See John 14:16) If the church is taken out of the way???

In either case the Rapture will occur before the man of sin is revealed or the tribulation.

The falling away (sneaky departure) from the earth is a pre-tribulation rapture.



Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

2Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

[tealblue]

1 thes 4:14-18

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
15
Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely NOT precede those who have fallen asleep.
16
For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise FIRST.
17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up TOGETHER with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18
Therefore, console one another with these words.

Well if you look at verse 15 it says that the dead in christ will rise first before those who are left and the ones left surely WILL NOT proceed those who have fallen asleep. I want to clarify that I don't believe in a rapture at all but I will call it that for sake of argument. Actually the rapture idea is less than 200 years old and was not a historic idea. Nowhere in scripture does the tribulation and the "rapture" coexist in the same verse. The historic view is that the second coming and the catching up(rapture) are at the same time.

[Saxon]

1 thes 4:14-18

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
15
Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely NOT precede those who have fallen asleep.
16
For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise FIRST.
17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up TOGETHER with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18
Therefore, console one another with these words.

Well if you look at verse 15 it says that the dead in christ will rise first before those who are left and the ones left surely WILL NOT proceed those who have fallen asleep. I want to clarify that I don't believe in a rapture at all but I will call it that for sake of argument. Actually the rapture idea is less than 200 years old and was not a historic idea. Nowhere in scripture does the tribulation and the "rapture" coexist in the same verse. The historic view is that the second coming and the catching up(rapture) are at the same time.

Would you explain more clearly what you mean by “Actually the rapture idea is less than 200 years old”. Do you mean the term “rapture” or the understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 to 18 as we who use the term rapture, now understand it?

I am aware that the term “rapture” is used to describe the event of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 to 18 just as the term “trinity” is used to describe the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

[Trinity]

Would you explain more clearly what you mean by “Actually the rapture idea is less than 200 years old”.

The origin of this belief about a Pre-Tribulation rapture is attributed to a 15 year old girl, called Margaret McDonald, who in 1830 had had a vision that was later published in 1861. John Darby had extended this belief among the Christians in England, and in a short time that came to America.

The vision:

http://www.bibleprophesy.org/vision.htm

"Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air.

I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him."

Trinity

[Saxon]

The origin of this belief about a Pre-Tribulation rapture is attributed to a 15 year old girl, called Margaret McDonald, who in 1830 had had a vision that was later published in 1861. John Darby had extended this belief among the Christians in England, and in a short time that came to America.

The vision:


Trinity

What do you believe the 1Thessalonians verses are describing?

[Trinity]

Hello Saxon,

What do you believe the 1Thessalonians verses are describing?

The real debate is when this reunion with Christ will take place. Tealblue had said that the dead in christ will rise first before this reunion. And he is right according to the text. This is a lot of people that will rise again, coming from many centuries, around the world.

The word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Greek Bible.This is an English word used in place of the Latin word "raptus", taken from the Saint Jerome translation, named the Vulgate. The word "harpazo" in Greek, means "caught up" or "taken away". The word "rapture" can be seen into our English bible because the translators of the Vulgate incorporated this word in the text. The word was coined in the Middle Ages. In brief, "rapture" is not a perfect equivalent of "harpazo".

The dispensational theology have many flaws and was subject of numerous contradictions in the last decades. The orthodoxy (Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran) teaches that the reunion with christ will occur at the last judgement.

Trinity

[Leslie]

I thought Walter Martin was post-trib?

[tealblue]

Would you explain more clearly what you mean by “Actually the rapture idea is less than 200 years old”. Do you mean the term “rapture” or the understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 to 18 as we who use the term rapture, now understand it?

I am aware that the term “rapture” is used to describe the event of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 to 18 just as the term “trinity” is used to describe the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

What I mean by that is I don't belive in the modern theory of the church being raptured at some point dunring a tribulation. This idea is very new. The historic church believed most of revelation was refering to the geneation of the time. Thats why Jesus says THIS GENERATION will not pass until these things take place. He wasn't refering to his second coming but the destruction of the jewish temple. You won't find anywhere in scriptue the rapture along side the tribulation in any text.

[Leslie]

What I mean by that is I don't belive in the modern theory of the church being raptured at some point dunring a tribulation. This idea is very new. The historic church believed most of revelation was refering to the geneation of the time. Thats why Jesus says THIS GENERATION will not pass until these things take place. He wasn't refering to his second coming but the destruction of the jewish temple. You won't find anywhere in scriptue the rapture along side the tribulation in any text.

Well, you do have the fact of John being called up into heaven, which could be a symbol for the Rapture, that and the fact that the Church kinda isn't mentioned after the beginning of Revelation, until the end.

Keep in mind, the pre-tribulation view is the only view that allows Christ to return at any time. The post trib view forces Christ to wait 7 years to return for his Church. When Jesus said he was coming as a thief in the night, it kinda means he could come at any time.

[Trinity]

Well, you do have the fact of John being called up into heaven, which could be a symbol for the Rapture, that and the fact that the Church kinda isn't mentioned after the beginning of Revelation, until the end.

The big question should be where is heaven? The cosmology from the antiquity and the modern cosmology are not alike.

Trinity

[Leslie]

I don't think that people who believe differently than I do about eschatology are heretics or anything, well the Pretorists kinda annoy me a little bit. I'm just concerned with the emminence of the Lord's coming. I don't think any other views preserves the urgency of being ready for his coming.

[Saxon]

What I mean by that is I don't belive in the modern theory of the church being raptured at some point dunring a tribulation. This idea is very new. The historic church believed most of revelation was refering to the geneation of the time. Thats why Jesus says THIS GENERATION will not pass until these things take place. He wasn't refering to his second coming but the destruction of the jewish temple. You won't find anywhere in scriptue the rapture along side the tribulation in any text.

Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

What do you think the parable of the fig tree is saying?

One possibility is that the fig tree is Israel. A tender branch putting forth leaves is a young Israel forming in 1948. The generation from the 1948 period could be the generation that will not pass away. Verse 37 is speaking of the coming of the Son of man.

[Leslie]

I know a number of Church Fathers that didn't believe the Great Tribulation had already happened. And they were looking for the Antichrist to appear, and they believed in a REAL millienial reign, unlike the Amillienialists and pretorists. *coughs*

[Trinity]

Hello Leslie,

I know a number of Church Fathers that didn't believe the Great Tribulation had already happened. And they were looking for the Antichrist to appear, and they believed in a REAL millienial reign, unlike the Amillienialists and pretorists. *coughs*

This is true for the first two centuries. During this period, premillennial, and the amillennial position, were both defended. Clement of Alexandria and Origen rejected premillennialism.

The premillennial beliefs of the early church fathers, however, are quite different from the dominant form of modern-day premillennialism, namely dispensational premillennialism.

Boyd, pp. 90f: "It is the conclusion of this thesis that Dr. Ryrie's statement [that dispensationalism was the view of the early church fathers] is historically invalid within the chronological framework of this thesis. The reasons for this conclusion are as follows: 1). the writers/writings surveyed did not generally adopt a consistently applied literal interpretation; 2). they did not generally distinguish between the Church and Israel; 3). there is no evidence that they generally held to a dispensational view of revealed history; 4). although Papias and Justin Martyr did believe in a Milennial kingdom, the 1,000 years is the only basic similarity with the modern system (in fact, they and dispensational pre-millennialism radically differ on the basis of the Millennium); 5).they had no concept of imminency or a pre-tribulational rapture of the Church; 6).in general, their eschatological chronology is not synonymous with that of the modern system. Indeed, this thesis would conclude that the eschatological beliefs of the period studied would be generally inimical to those of the modern system (perhaps, seminal amillennialism, and not nascent dispensational pre-millennialism ought to be seen in the eschatology of the period)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism#cite_note-9

Trinity