Let us spotlight and particular teaching

[stemelbow]

I got some questions

Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?

***uming all the above is in line with your beliefs lets move on...

God created beings and knew each and every action each being would do throughout eternity, right?

He knew, for instance, that little Russ would tell his mom a lie when he was little, right?

But God, being all-powerful, didn't have to create any beings who would do anything evil right?

Without creating there would be no evil practiced there would only be God, right?

A creature would not do evil things if God first did not create that being out of nothing knowing full well all actions that being would do, right?

God knew which beings would be saved eternally and which beings would be ****ed for eternity before creating any of them, right?

God did not have to create any beings who would be ****ed for eternity, right?

There would be absolutely no suffering, of the worst kind, if God did not create, right?

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

love,
stem

[nrajeff]

Stem, if you get little in the way of responses, would it be all right if I posted my Parable of the Hasbro Evil Robot Designer/Engineer/***embler ?

[stemelbow]

Let's give it a little longer. I'm sure I won't get any answers to my questions mostly because they are such awful answer dodgers, as they accuse us, but we'll see.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

I got some questions.

According to non-LDS Christianity God is the source of evil.

If you are unfamiliar with your beliefs and how your beliefs do this let me explain it to you, through questions:

First of all, I am quite familiar with my beliefs, so I certainly do not need you to explain them to me.

Secondly, it is obvious that YOU do NOT understand my beliefs, given your misrepresentation of them right here.

Third, since the rest of your questions are based on the unsubstantiated, falacious and false premise (that God is the source of evil), they deserve no more answer than if you had asked me to give you the date on which I stopped selling crack to first graders.

While it is obvious that you are unfamilair with the range of thought Christian scholars and philosophers have represented on this matter, if you would like me to explain my own understanding of the origin of evil, just ask. Meanwhile, since this is the MORMON forum, I suggest that rather than pretending to dictate to others what they believe, you have a responsibility to represent the MORMON view on this topic. But don't pretend to dictate to me what I believe either by fallacious questions or any other means.

-BH

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[stemelbow]

So you refuse to answer questions? No need to fear. If I'm wrong, then plainly tell me, by answering the questions, in which way I'm wrong. It'd be a delight to hear you actually attempt a defense of your own belief system. I dont believe I've every seen you try to defend your beliefs before.

Or you can run in fear...again.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

So you refuse to answer questions? No need to fear. If I'm wrong, then plainly tell me, by answering the questions, in which way I'm wrong. It'd be a delight to hear you actually attempt a defense of your own belief system. I dont believe I've every seen you try to defend your beliefs before

I refuse to answer questions based on fallacious premises. You may not "believe" you have ever seen me defend my beliefs, but as usual, what you believe does not reflect reality.

I am happy to explain my understanding on the issue of the origin and nature of evil if you like. I am a Molinist. Now run off to google and discover what that means, or if you prefer I will explain it to you.

-BH

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[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by BrianH

I refuse to answer questions based on fallacious premises.

I see that you refuse to answer questions. It appears you have something to hide...again.

You may not "believe" you have ever seen me defend my beliefs, but as usual, what you believe does not reflect reality.

I'm sure you've attempted at some point in time a defense of your religion but I don't think you do it when I'm around. Perhaps your attempts at defending your faith have been totally futile and so you refuse to do it anymore?

I am happy to explain my understanding on the issue of the origin and nature of evil if you like. I am a Molinist. Now run off to google and discover what that means, or if you prefer I will explain it to you.

I would prefer you simply answer some questions instead of play your puffing up the chest games. I think it'll be much more enlightening to me than your obscure and inarticulate explanation of your beliefs.

Since you're plain afraid to answer them, I'll go ahead and realize you have conceded the point.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

I see that you refuse to answer questions. It appears you have something to hide...again.

Had you bothered to actually read the post to which you are responding, you would not have made this mistake. At this point it is obvious that you are at a loss and now have to try to cover your retreat from your empty rhetoric with MORE empty rhetoric.

I'm sure you've attempted at some point in time a defense of your religion but I don't think you do it when I'm around. Perhaps your attempts at defending your faith have been totally futile and so you refuse to do it anymore?

And you are wrong again. I have MANY times defended my beliefs directly to YOU and you know it. Meanwhile, MY beliefs are not MORMON beliefs and are thus not the focus of THIS board.

I would prefer you simply answer some questions instead of play your puffing up the chest games. I think it'll be much more enlightening to me than your obscure and inarticulate explanation of your beliefs.

Of course you would "prefer" that I answer your questions. That is becaue you lack the capacity to be honest enough to let me explain my own views apart from your obviously fallacious premises. But if you don't think my answers are sufficinely clear and articulate, why are you asking for me to provide my "obscure and inarticulate explanations" to begin with? It seems you are once again caught in a self-contradiction.

Since you're plain afraid to answer them, I'll go ahead and realize you have conceded the point.

"Afraid"??? No, smart. I am smart enough to recognize faulty premises and the desperate attempts of Mormons to pretend to dictate to me what my beliefs are. At this point it is obvious that you are not at all interested in finding out what I think, you just want me to jump through the hoops of your fallacious questions while mindlessly following your unsubstantiated premises. I am simply not as stoooopid as you want to pretend, Stem. in fact I am MUCH smarter than you.

-BH

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[stemelbow]

Alright, you got your gaming in. Now if you're up to it go ahead and answer the questions. Or hide if you prefer behind those who you think have done the thinking for you by claiming you're a molinist, as if that settles it. I don't care...either way.

meanwhile your fear of answering the questions only confirms to me that you have no logical way to avoid the idea that your beliefs make God into the very source of evil...sadly.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

Alright, you got your gaming in. Now if you're up to it go ahead and answer the questions. Or hide if you prefer behind those who you think have done the thinking for you by claiming you're a molinist, as if that settles it. I don't care...either way.

Gaming? I see you are unwilling to abandon your usual empty rhetoric. What you dismiss as "gaming" is me explicitly identifying the fact that your questions are all based on the fallacy of a false premise. I do not believe that God is the source of evil as you claimed. I therefore have no obligation to answer questions based on the ***umption that I DO believe that God is the soruce of evil.

Secondly, it is obvious that you do not even know what Molinism is, nor do you have any grounds to claim that I have not thought about these matters. That you don't care is only further proof of just how shallow and uneducated you really are on this matter.

meanwhile your fear of answering the questions only confirms to me that you have no logical way to avoid the idea that your beliefs make God into the very source of evil...sadly.

As you try to once again tell me what my beleifs are, I can only stand in awe at the arrogance and ignoranc e required of Mormons. What you dismiss as my supposed "fear" is the simple fact that your lame and childish little parlor tricks are no more effective on me than your attempt to dictate to me what my beliefs are. That you would even ATTEMPT such stooooopid little tricks as these only shows that you actually thought they would work.

Apparently you think that everyone else is just as easy to fool as you are.

-BH

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[nrajeff]

So, Brian the Molinist: What "would have happened" if God had NOT been the cause of all the evil in the universe? I mean, I can think up one result: A universe where everything that He'd created and called "very good" would have REMAINED very good forever. But somehow that result must not have been a "very good" idea. So: What else you got in the way of answers from your cult of Molinism?

[BrianH]

So, Brian the Molinist: What "would have happened" if God had NOT been the cause of all the evil in the universe.

Your question errs in ***uming the fallacious and unsupported premise that God WAS the cause of all the evil in the universe.

I mean, I can think up one result: A universe where everything that He'd created and called "very good" would have REMAINED very good forever.

So what? Are you suggesting that God made a mistake? If so ...well, I know you Momrons are incredibly arrogant (even to the point of thinking that YOU are "Gods"), but I suggest you have a responsibility to back up such a claim.

So: What else you got in the way of answers from your cult of Molinism?

Here we have yet another demonstration of the rhetorical desperation of Mormons. Molinism is not a "cult" in either the sociolgoical or religious contexts. There is no organized body, no creed, no leader, no specific, exclusive dogma nor any of the other characteristics of a "cult" thus the term does not appy - unless you mean to use it in the generic and essentially meaningless sense of a group that believes similar things.

-BH

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[stemelbow]

So what? Are you suggesting that God made a mistake? If so ...well, I know you Momrons are incredibly arrogant (even to the point of thinking that YOU are "Gods"), but I suggest you have a responsibility to back up such a claim.

I can't help myself but to comment on this. No one is suggesting God made any mistakes...the obvious point is your religion makes God out to be the bad guy, if the precepts of your religion are taken to their logical conclusion (which you conceded you can't/don't do). The point being your religion is at fault here, not Jeff's question; albeit the hostility you expressed because he asked a question says something.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

I can't help myself but to comment on this. No one is suggesting God made any mistakes...the obvious point is your religion makes God out to be the bad guy, if the precepts of your religion are taken to their logical conclusion (which you conceded you can't/don't do). The point being your religion is at fault here, not Jeff's question; albeit the hostility you expressed because he asked a question says something.

Jeff suggested that God made the mistake of creating evil and even posed what he regarded as a better universe.

Seconly, since I do NOT credit God with the creation of evil as you have now repeatedly and deliberately misrepresented, it is impossible that my religion makes God out to be the bad guy. Don't you EVER get tired of getting caught deliberately misrepresenting the views of other people in public. Have you NO honor whatsoever?

-BH

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[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Jeff suggested that God made the mistake of creating evil and even posed what he regarded as a better universe.

In light of the topic of this thread, he's clearly asking you to consider how your beliefs make God look bad...essentially. He's clearly not suggesting God made any mistakes, only that your beliefs are erroneous.

Seconly, since I do NOT credit God with the creation of evil as you have now repeatedly and deliberately misrepresented

I never said you credited God with the creation of evil. You have failed to comprehend what I've said again.

, it is impossible that my religion makes God out to be the bad guy. Don't you EVER get tired of getting caught deliberately misrepresenting the views of other people in public. Have you NO honor whatsoever?

Actually your beliefs and inability to think your religious convictions through have little to do with the logical outcome of the mainstream Christian religion.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Alright you got your grandstanding and deflections in...now I fixed the OP, there is no premise involved anymore, so you can go back and answer the questions. I know you won't, but I'm trying to work with you here.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

In light of the topic of this thread, he's clearly asking you to consider how your beliefs make God look bad...essentially. He's clearly not suggesting God made any mistakes, only that your beliefs are erroneous.

Wrong. As I have explained several times now and you just continue to ignore: Jeff (like you) is announcing that HIS (and your) deliberate misrepresentation and revision of my beliefs make God look bad. It is YOUR dishonest and deliberately false representation of my beliefs that are erroneous.

I never said you credited God with the creation of evil. You have failed to comprehend what I've said again.

I have repeatedly proven that statement FALSE. AGAIN (for the third or fourth time now), YOUR very words:

quote:>> "According to non-LDS Christianity God is the source of evil." <<: unquote

I have busted you several times on this and NOW you have even gone back several days later and edited that statement out of the OP, thereby PROVING by your own actions that you recognize that you are not telling the truth. This is the kind of deliberate, deceptive behavior to which your Mormonism has reduced you, Stem.

Actually your beliefs and inability to think your religious convictions through have little to do with the logical outcome of the mainstream Christian religion.

You have just proven by your own deliberate and blatantly dishonest behavior that you lack any personal integrity whatsoever, so beyond being simply irrelevant to your own topic here, your opinion of me is meaningless.

Alright you got your grandstanding and deflections in...now I fixed the OP, there is no premise involved anymore, so you can go back and answer the questions. I know you won't, but I'm trying to work with you here.

Exposing the fallacies in your games and the personal dishonesty in your posts is not a "deflection", Stem - it is a direct attack on your shallow and deceptive gamesmanship. Your questions are all based on the false premise that I affirm that God is the "source of evil". That is false. If it were true, than your own deceptive behaviors here would be God's fault in my view. But that is not the case. YOU are responsible for your own demonstrated personal dishonesty.

-BH

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[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Your question errs in ***uming the fallacious and unsupported premise that God WAS the cause of all the evil in the universe.

---I was just following your belief that God is the Uncaused Cause, and combining it with one pillar of your Molinism: Your belief that besides God knowing everything that IS, He also knows everything that MIGHT HAVE BEEN if He'd done things DIFFERENTLY. Kind of like how a good chess player can look ahead several moves and think "If I go THERE, then my opponent would go THERE...."

So, if your God is really absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign, then He is absolutely responsible for EVERYTHING, both good and bad, that happens in His universe. He can't put the blame on anyone else, because, by your definition of Him, no one else is absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign. Your God gets all the credit for all the good, and He also gets all the blame for all the bad.

Now, you are a Molin (like you call me a Mormon...get it?). So, following that pillar of your Molinism, I looked at what IS--the world He'd created and all its inhabitants fallen, evil, none of them that do good, none of them righteous, with Satan wreaking misery, death, pain, destruction and sorrow on everyone--and plugged that into the Molinism Computer. Your Molinisitic God must have considered all the possible combinations and permutations of all of His OTHER options or alternatives--decisions He COULD HAVE made but didn't--and ONE of those outcomes was a universe that REMAINED "very good," with NO evil, no Satan in it. He must have decided that the reality that we ARE in was somehow preferable to that one, right? Otherwise, He'd have done things differently with the GOOD universe as a result instead of this EVIL universe.

So I was just wondering if you had any additional scenarios to add, besides the one that I thought of. Surely you understand Molinism better than I do--after all, it's YOUR religion, not mine--and so you must have more insights than the one I had.

[BrianH]

I was just following your belief that God is the Uncaused Cause, and combining it with one pillar of your Molinism: Your belief that besides God knowing everything that IS, He also knows everything that MIGHT HAVE BEEN if He'd done things DIFFERENTLY. Kind of like how a good chess player can look ahead several moves and think "If I go THERE, then my opponent would go THERE...."

And then you were what ...trying to tell me that you have a better idea about what God SHOULD have created if he was as good as YOU?

So, if your God is really absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign, then He is absolutely responsible for EVERYTHING, both good and bad, that happens in His universe.

Really? So then, in your so-called "mind", when you tell lies about God being an exalted creature living on a planet in outer space or about imaginary Egyptian-writing Jewish American Indians using steel swords, operating a monetary economy and riding around in chariots, somehow GOD is responsible for those lies?

Now, you are a Molin (like you call me a Mormon...get it?). So, following that pillar of your Molinism, I looked at what IS--the world He'd created and all its inhabitants fallen, evil, none of them that do good, none of them righteous, with Satan wreaking misery, death, pain, destruction and sorrow on everyone--and plugged that into the Molinism Computer. Your Molinisitic God must have considered all the possible combinations and permutations of all of His OTHER options or alternatives--decisions He COULD HAVE made but didn't--and ONE of those outcomes was a universe that REMAINED "very good," with NO evil, no Satan in it. He must have decided that the reality that we ARE in was somehow preferable to that one, right? Otherwise, He'd have done things differently with the GOOD universe as a result instead of this EVIL universe.

God created the best possible reality according to his own purpose. Do you pretend to actually be the God your religion tells you that you are such that you are now in a position to correct Him?

So I was just wondering if you had any additional scenarios to add, besides the one that I thought of. Surely you understand Molinism better than I do--after all, it's YOUR religion, not mine--and so you must have more insights than the one I had.

First of all, YOUR religion holds evil as a principle above or before God. I do not share that view. Evil did not exist before the man you call "God" turned into one of the Mormon Gods by eschewing the evil that preceded him and then got his own planet as his reward. Secondly, to answer your question (something you might try actually doing some time), there may indeed be a functionally infinite number of possible universes that God did NOT create. I suggest that since HE is God (and you are not) that he has the necessary and sufficient wisdom to have created the one he wanted for his own purpose. In that universe, God did not create evil as you imagine (or pretend that I have affirmed). God created the possibility of evil. If you cannot understand the difference, I suggest you owe me an explanation of what you even think "evil" actually is.

-BH

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[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by BrianH

And then you were what ...trying to tell me that you have a better idea about what God SHOULD have created if he was as good as YOU?

--Still slow on the uptake, it seems. No, I wasn't trying to tell you that, as most high-school grads should be able to realize. I was taking your beliefs to their logical conclusion, and exposing your beliefs as being fallacious in the process.

Really? So then, in your so-called "mind"

---Not just so-called: All the evidence supports the fact that it is, in reality, a mind. Perhaps your cult has brainwashed you into believing that some people only have "so-called" minds. This sounds surrealistic. Does your cult teach you that reality is only so-called? That is one sign of cult-think.

when you tell lies about God being an exalted creature

--So your cult has taught you that the idea that God is exalted, is a lie? That is cause for concern. Get out of that cult ASAP, if the Molinists have you believing such things.

living on a planet

---Some of your Carm buddies right here in WM (like Jim Banta) believe that they will be dwelling with God right here on this planet. You believe God is living, right? Do you believe in those NT scriptures that say that the "elect" will end up "reigning" with God on this planet? If yes, then you yourself believe in a God that lives on planets, Brian. Or has your Molinism cult taught you to reject the Bible?

in outer space or about imaginary Egyptian-writing Jewish American Indians using steel swords, operating a monetary economy

---Do you need to see evidence that some precolumbian cultures had a monetary system? Get up to speed, Brian, that evidence has been out for decades. Your old Tanner/Decker/Martin library is obsolete.

God created the best possible reality according to his own purpose.

--Yeah, preaching to the choir there, we all believe that. But your Molinism is BASED on the idea that your God considered ALL OTHER possible decisions He COULD have made, and all other resulting outcomes. Since your God is the Uncaused Cause of EVERYTHING (since there was NOTHING that was made that was not made by Him, you believe), then your God owns all the evil that has ever existed. Since your God is absolutely omniscient, omnipotent, and sovereign (that means He always get His own way), then NO ONE could have PREVENTED your God from making an evil-free universe. NO ONE. Where there is absolute omnipotence and sovereignty and omniscience, there is absolute responsibility.

[BrianH]

--Still slow on the uptake, it seems. No, I wasn't trying to tell you that, as most high-school grads should be able to realize. I was taking your beliefs to their logical conclusion, and exposing your beliefs as being fallacious in the process.

YOUR words: "So, Brian the Molinist: What "would have happened" if God had NOT been the cause of all the evil in the universe. "

You are ***uming that God WAS the cause of all evil to begin with or at least ***uming that I beleive that nonsense. You are caught in a circular argument fallacy. You are ***UMING your own conclusion in your premise. But Jeff, God w*** NOT the cause of all the evil in the universe, nor do I believe that he was. The problem even my 12th grader daughter can spot is that you have ***UMED that YOUR conclusion is THE (or the only) conclusion. (Granted my daughter began her formal training in logic in 7th grade ...but that is another issue). The problem is, you have not shown that yours is the only or even the best inference. You have only ***UMED that I believe or must infer that God is the source of all evil. YOU are trying jam YOUR conclusions down my throat and then asking me to defend YOUR misrepresentation of my views. Yuor trick is not working. try another one.

---Not just so-called: All the evidence supports the fact that it is, in reality, a mind. Perhaps your cult has brainwashed you into believing that some people only have "so-called" minds. This sounds surrealistic. Does your cult teach you that reality is only so-called? That is one sign of cult-think

Oh really? You have a mind? Okay suppose you identify just some of "all the evidence" to which you are eluding. You can begin by demosntrating that you DO have a mind by at least thinking a little bit instead of just imagining what you think my beliefs should say. Meanwhile, that you bave been so quickly reduced calling historically orthodox Christianity a "cult" is only further proof that you are out of ammo. As usual, you are just shooting blanks Mr. NRA.

--So your cult has taught you that the idea that God is exalted, is a lie? That is cause for concern. Get out of that cult ASAP, if the Molinists have you believing such things.

No...YOUR cult (I use the term properly where you are reduced to using it incorrectly) has taught YOU that God was once a man - a creature living on another planet in outer space who subsequently went through a process that turned him into one of Mormonisms imaginary "Gods". Furthermore, were you even minimally familiar with the terms you are using you would have known that Molinism has nothing to do with God's exaltation. As long as you continue to use words you do not even understand, you will continue to embar*** yourself this way.

---Do you need to see evidence that some precolumbian cultures had a monetary system? Get up to speed, Brian, that evidence has been out for decades. Your old Tanner/Decker/Martin library is obsolete.

You have missed the point. We need to see evidence that Egyptian-writing, Jewish American Indians who were busying themselves with the task of baptizing each other into the Christian church 500 years before Jesus was even born were ALSO engaging in a monetary economy.

You ...GOT any evidence? No, you don't. And the reason why you don't is because your religion is based on the lies of a twice-convicted occult con artist and the content of your Book of Mormon is the product of his fantasies and documented plagiarisms.

--Yeah, preaching to the choir there, we all believe that.

Then you have conceded my point and the position of Molinism and according to the Bible, Christianity and Molinism, God is NOT the source of all of the evil in the universe as you misrepresented. God's FOREKNOWLDGE is not the same thing as God's creative generation. For example, God knew that you would be telling lies about portions of the Egyptian Book of the Dead supposedly REALLY being the "Book of Abraham". But is it is YOU who is lying, not God.

-BH

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[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by BrianH

YOUR words: "So, Brian the Molinist: What "would have happened" if God had NOT been the cause of all the evil in the universe. "
You are ***uming that God WAS the cause of all evil to begin with or at least ***uming that I beleive that nonsense.

--Almost correct. I was taking your beliefs to their logical conclusion, which means that if you are consistent, you SHOULD believe that your God is the Great Uncaused Cause of evil. If you don't believe that, then you aren't following your beliefs to their logical conclusion. I guess I will have to share the Parable of the Hasbro Evil Robot Kit Designer/Builder so that you can be led to that logical conclusion that the SECOND we were created by your God, Brian, we had that "sin nature" thing programmed into us, not by our own choice (since we were embryos at the time). Your God created us from our very beginning, programmed with a guarantee that we would sin, and we had no choice in that. Who is responsible for us being created that way, Brian? Your God, that's who.

Suppose Hasbro was marketing an Evil Robot Kit, guaranteed to do evil once the robot was ***embled, and you bought it and read the warnings ("Warning: ***embling this robot will definitely, for sure, result in evil, mayhem, and general sinning of Biblical proportions!") but you went ahead and put it together anyway, and the thing went around doing all kinds of evil. Who is to blame for the evil that resulted? You, for buying it and ***embling it, knowing what it would surely do. But that's not quite ****ogous to your God, Brian, because your God is not just the purchaser of the kit--He is the Head Robot Engineer at Hasbro, and it was your God who DESIGNED and PRODUCED that Evil Robot Kit, and then went and ***embled it and turned it loose on the universe. NOW how much responsibility does your God bear for the evil that resulted? Your God KNEW for SURE, being omniscient, what would happen if He put the kit together, He had absolute power (absolutely omnipotent) to make it NOT guaranteed to do evil, and He had the autonomy (absolutely sovereign) to decree that it NOT turn out that way. Yet your God went and did it anyway, and was the one who COULD have designed it otherwise but chose not to. Your God MADE it, and made it THAT WAY, knowing beforehand that it was guaranteed to do evil. So, based on your beliefs about God, how responsible is your God for evil, Brian?

a) 100&#37; responsible

b) there is no other option for you except a)

You claim to be a logical thinker, Brian, so feel free to find errors in my logic.

[BrianH]

--Almost correct. I was taking your beliefs to their logical conclusion which means that if you are consistent, you SHOULD believe that your God is the Great Uncaused Cause of evil.

That is where you are WRONG. Your conclusion is not THE logical conclusion. It is YOUR revision of Molinism and the inference that YOU draw. I see no reason to think that I am responsible for YOUR revsion of my views or the views of Molinists everywhere. Molinism does NOT hold that God is the cause of evil. That is YOUR ignoran t or deliberate misrepresentation of my view.

Suppose Hasbro was marketing an Evil Robot Kit, guaranteed to do evil once the robot was ***embled ...& blah blah blah. <snip>

You continue to make the error of "thinking" that God's foreknowledge is God's will. This is precisely where the "middle knowledge" of Molinism refutes your ***umptions.

-BH

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[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by BrianH

That is where you are WRONG. Your conclusion is not THE logical conclusion.

---Then point out the illogical parts. Unless you can't because there aren't any.

I see no reason to think that I am responsible for YOUR revsion of my views or the views of Molinists everywhere.

---I am gonna save that statement for future use, because it's a good, valid response to so many of the ***ertions you make against the LDS. We are not responsible for YOUR revisions of OUR views, or the views of LDS everywhere, either. So goose and gander both get what's good.

Molinism does NOT hold that God is the cause of evil.

--I never said it does hold that, I said that is where it, combined with Trinitarianism's "omni's" and TULIP, unavoidably END UP. Just following it to its logical end. The fact that Molinists are uncomfortable following their own beliefs to their logical end is another issue.

You continue to make the error of "thinking" that God's foreknowledge is God's will.

----I am not making that equivocation, but in a way it's probably true, given your beliefs. Are you gonna claim that Predestination is NOT God's will? Are mere humans able to subvert God's will? Don't you believe that God always gets His way, since He is absolutely sovereign? Whose will is more powerful than God's?

This is precisely where the "middle knowledge" of Molinism refutes your ***umptions.

---Feel free to elaborate on that refutation, but remember that I am holding your Molinism PLUS your Trinitarianism ("the 3 omnis") PLUS your Calvinism (Predestination, Sovereignty, Programmed, congenital, guaranteed sinning nature) under the microscope together. If that mixture results in a yukky-tasting stew, it ain't my fault or problem.

[BrianH]

---Then point out the illogical parts. Unless you can't because there aren't any.

I already did. Your fundamental methodology is wrong. You START wtih your own conclusion in your premise and then arrive at your conclusion. That is the fallacy of the circular argument. You are also mistaking God's FOREKNOWLDEGE with his WILL (another fallacy: the categorical error). God does not perform the evil you attribute to him with your revision of Molinism nor did he create the evil in the universe. He created the POSSIBILITY of evil. And just to back up here, you have not even bothered to define "evil" in the first place.

---I am gonna save that statement for future use, because it's a good, valid response to so many of the ***ertions you make against the LDS. We are not responsible for YOUR revisions of OUR views, or the views of LDS everywhere, either. So goose and gander both get what's good.

I do not misrepresent LDS teachings. I may, however, not represent the individual beliefs of a given Mormon. These are frequently quite divergent. Meanwhile you ARE misrepresenting my views AND normative Molinism.

--I never said it does hold that, I said that is where it, combined with Trinitarianism's "omni's" and TULIP, unavoidably END UP. Just following it to its logical end. The fact that Molinists are uncomfortable following their own beliefs to their logical end is another issue.

You are obviously VERY confused. First of all you absolutely DID state in perfectly clear terms that Molinism DOES affirm that God is the soruce of evil insofar as that is the fundamental premise of your question. Secondly, TULIP is not a trinitarian doctrine - TULIP states NOTHING about the doctrine of the trinity. Furthermore your inference is NOT the "logical end" of either Molinism, the trinity or TULIP. YOUR misrepresentation of Molinism is what makes me uncomfortable, Jeff - not the logical extention of Molinism itself. You have not shown that your logical derivation is valid to begin with. Just repeating your claim that it is does not hold any water.

----I am not making that equivocation, but in a way it's probably true, given your beliefs. Are you gonna claim that Predestination is NOT God's will? Are mere humans able to subvert God's will? Don't you believe that God always gets His way, since He is absolutely sovereign? Whose will is more powerful than God's?

You absolutely ARE confusing God's FOREKNOWLEDGE with his WILL. They are not the same thing. Nor is God's FOREKNOWLEDGE the same thing as predestination. You are confuing terms you apparently have yet to understand. And no, God does NOT always what he wants. For example it is God's desire that ALL people will be saved (1 Tim 2:3-4), but God knows that people like you who preach a gospel different from the one deliverdd once and for all to the saints (Jud 3) are accursed (Gal 1:8-9) and will spend eternity in hell.

In fact, God is the only one who does NOT get what he wants when it comes to the redemption of mankind. Those who respond to his call get what they want (JESUS!). Those who refuse the truth get what they want: to be apart from God. God alone does not get what he wants - YOU and all of those who willfully submit to false "prophets" and otherwise choose to serve the father of lies instead.

---Feel free to elaborate on that refutation, but remember that I am holding your Molinism PLUS your Trinitarianism ("the 3 omnis") PLUS your Calvinism (Predestination, Sovereignty, Programmed, congenital, guaranteed sinning nature) under the microscope together. If that mixture results in a yukky-tasting stew, it ain't my fault or problem.

Here again, there are so many errors, its hard to know where to start. I guess we will jsut take your errors in order: Nothing I have said conflicts with Molinism; Trinitarianism does not consist of Gods omnis and I am not a Calvinist.

-BH

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