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Thread: Let us spotlight and particular teaching

  1. #26
    BrianH
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    --Still slow on the uptake, it seems. No, I wasn't trying to tell you that, as most high-school grads should be able to realize. I was taking your beliefs to their logical conclusion, and exposing your beliefs as being fallacious in the process.
    YOUR words: "So, Brian the Molinist: What "would have happened" if God had NOT been the cause of all the evil in the universe. "

    You are ***uming that God WAS the cause of all evil to begin with or at least ***uming that I beleive that nonsense. You are caught in a circular argument fallacy. You are ***UMING your own conclusion in your premise. But Jeff, God w*** NOT the cause of all the evil in the universe, nor do I believe that he was. The problem even my 12th grader daughter can spot is that you have ***UMED that YOUR conclusion is THE (or the only) conclusion. (Granted my daughter began her formal training in logic in 7th grade ...but that is another issue). The problem is, you have not shown that yours is the only or even the best inference. You have only ***UMED that I believe or must infer that God is the source of all evil. YOU are trying jam YOUR conclusions down my throat and then asking me to defend YOUR misrepresentation of my views. Yuor trick is not working. try another one.

    ---Not just so-called: All the evidence supports the fact that it is, in reality, a mind. Perhaps your cult has brainwashed you into believing that some people only have "so-called" minds. This sounds surrealistic. Does your cult teach you that reality is only so-called? That is one sign of cult-think
    Oh really? You have a mind? Okay suppose you identify just some of "all the evidence" to which you are eluding. You can begin by demosntrating that you DO have a mind by at least thinking a little bit instead of just imagining what you think my beliefs should say. Meanwhile, that you bave been so quickly reduced calling historically orthodox Christianity a "cult" is only further proof that you are out of ammo. As usual, you are just shooting blanks Mr. NRA.

    --So your cult has taught you that the idea that God is exalted, is a lie? That is cause for concern. Get out of that cult ASAP, if the Molinists have you believing such things.
    No...YOUR cult (I use the term properly where you are reduced to using it incorrectly) has taught YOU that God was once a man - a creature living on another planet in outer space who subsequently went through a process that turned him into one of Mormonisms imaginary "Gods". Furthermore, were you even minimally familiar with the terms you are using you would have known that Molinism has nothing to do with God's exaltation. As long as you continue to use words you do not even understand, you will continue to embar*** yourself this way.

    ---Do you need to see evidence that some precolumbian cultures had a monetary system? Get up to speed, Brian, that evidence has been out for decades. Your old Tanner/Decker/Martin library is obsolete.
    You have missed the point. We need to see evidence that Egyptian-writing, Jewish American Indians who were busying themselves with the task of baptizing each other into the Christian church 500 years before Jesus was even born were ALSO engaging in a monetary economy.

    You ...GOT any evidence? No, you don't. And the reason why you don't is because your religion is based on the lies of a twice-convicted occult con artist and the content of your Book of Mormon is the product of his fantasies and documented plagiarisms.

    --Yeah, preaching to the choir there, we all believe that.
    Then you have conceded my point and the position of Molinism and according to the Bible, Christianity and Molinism, God is NOT the source of all of the evil in the universe as you misrepresented. God's FOREKNOWLDGE is not the same thing as God's creative generation. For example, God knew that you would be telling lies about portions of the Egyptian Book of the Dead supposedly REALLY being the "Book of Abraham". But is it is YOU who is lying, not God.

    -BH

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    Last edited by BrianH; 11-05-2009 at 07:32 AM.

  2. #27
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    YOUR words: "So, Brian the Molinist: What "would have happened" if God had NOT been the cause of all the evil in the universe. "
    You are ***uming that God WAS the cause of all evil to begin with or at least ***uming that I beleive that nonsense.
    --Almost correct. I was taking your beliefs to their logical conclusion, which means that if you are consistent, you SHOULD believe that your God is the Great Uncaused Cause of evil. If you don't believe that, then you aren't following your beliefs to their logical conclusion. I guess I will have to share the Parable of the Hasbro Evil Robot Kit Designer/Builder so that you can be led to that logical conclusion that the SECOND we were created by your God, Brian, we had that "sin nature" thing programmed into us, not by our own choice (since we were embryos at the time). Your God created us from our very beginning, programmed with a guarantee that we would sin, and we had no choice in that. Who is responsible for us being created that way, Brian? Your God, that's who.

    Suppose Hasbro was marketing an Evil Robot Kit, guaranteed to do evil once the robot was ***embled, and you bought it and read the warnings ("Warning: ***embling this robot will definitely, for sure, result in evil, mayhem, and general sinning of Biblical proportions!") but you went ahead and put it together anyway, and the thing went around doing all kinds of evil. Who is to blame for the evil that resulted? You, for buying it and ***embling it, knowing what it would surely do. But that's not quite ****ogous to your God, Brian, because your God is not just the purchaser of the kit--He is the Head Robot Engineer at Hasbro, and it was your God who DESIGNED and PRODUCED that Evil Robot Kit, and then went and ***embled it and turned it loose on the universe. NOW how much responsibility does your God bear for the evil that resulted? Your God KNEW for SURE, being omniscient, what would happen if He put the kit together, He had absolute power (absolutely omnipotent) to make it NOT guaranteed to do evil, and He had the autonomy (absolutely sovereign) to decree that it NOT turn out that way. Yet your God went and did it anyway, and was the one who COULD have designed it otherwise but chose not to. Your God MADE it, and made it THAT WAY, knowing beforehand that it was guaranteed to do evil. So, based on your beliefs about God, how responsible is your God for evil, Brian?

    a) 100% responsible

    b) there is no other option for you except a)

    You claim to be a logical thinker, Brian, so feel free to find errors in my logic.
    Last edited by nrajeff; 11-05-2009 at 10:02 AM.

  3. #28
    BrianH
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    --Almost correct. I was taking your beliefs to their logical conclusion which means that if you are consistent, you SHOULD believe that your God is the Great Uncaused Cause of evil.
    That is where you are WRONG. Your conclusion is not THE logical conclusion. It is YOUR revision of Molinism and the inference that YOU draw. I see no reason to think that I am responsible for YOUR revsion of my views or the views of Molinists everywhere. Molinism does NOT hold that God is the cause of evil. That is YOUR ignoran t or deliberate misrepresentation of my view.

    Suppose Hasbro was marketing an Evil Robot Kit, guaranteed to do evil once the robot was ***embled ...& blah blah blah. <snip>
    You continue to make the error of "thinking" that God's foreknowledge is God's will. This is precisely where the "middle knowledge" of Molinism refutes your ***umptions.

    -BH

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  4. #29
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    That is where you are WRONG. Your conclusion is not THE logical conclusion.
    ---Then point out the illogical parts. Unless you can't because there aren't any.

    I see no reason to think that I am responsible for YOUR revsion of my views or the views of Molinists everywhere.
    ---I am gonna save that statement for future use, because it's a good, valid response to so many of the ***ertions you make against the LDS. We are not responsible for YOUR revisions of OUR views, or the views of LDS everywhere, either. So goose and gander both get what's good.

    Molinism does NOT hold that God is the cause of evil.
    --I never said it does hold that, I said that is where it, combined with Trinitarianism's "omni's" and TULIP, unavoidably END UP. Just following it to its logical end. The fact that Molinists are uncomfortable following their own beliefs to their logical end is another issue.

    You continue to make the error of "thinking" that God's foreknowledge is God's will.
    ----I am not making that equivocation, but in a way it's probably true, given your beliefs. Are you gonna claim that Predestination is NOT God's will? Are mere humans able to subvert God's will? Don't you believe that God always gets His way, since He is absolutely sovereign? Whose will is more powerful than God's?
    This is precisely where the "middle knowledge" of Molinism refutes your ***umptions.
    ---Feel free to elaborate on that refutation, but remember that I am holding your Molinism PLUS your Trinitarianism ("the 3 omnis") PLUS your Calvinism (Predestination, Sovereignty, Programmed, congenital, guaranteed sinning nature) under the microscope together. If that mixture results in a yukky-tasting stew, it ain't my fault or problem.

  5. #30
    BrianH
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    ---Then point out the illogical parts. Unless you can't because there aren't any.
    I already did. Your fundamental methodology is wrong. You START wtih your own conclusion in your premise and then arrive at your conclusion. That is the fallacy of the circular argument. You are also mistaking God's FOREKNOWLDEGE with his WILL (another fallacy: the categorical error). God does not perform the evil you attribute to him with your revision of Molinism nor did he create the evil in the universe. He created the POSSIBILITY of evil. And just to back up here, you have not even bothered to define "evil" in the first place.

    ---I am gonna save that statement for future use, because it's a good, valid response to so many of the ***ertions you make against the LDS. We are not responsible for YOUR revisions of OUR views, or the views of LDS everywhere, either. So goose and gander both get what's good.
    I do not misrepresent LDS teachings. I may, however, not represent the individual beliefs of a given Mormon. These are frequently quite divergent. Meanwhile you ARE misrepresenting my views AND normative Molinism.

    --I never said it does hold that, I said that is where it, combined with Trinitarianism's "omni's" and TULIP, unavoidably END UP. Just following it to its logical end. The fact that Molinists are uncomfortable following their own beliefs to their logical end is another issue.
    You are obviously VERY confused. First of all you absolutely DID state in perfectly clear terms that Molinism DOES affirm that God is the soruce of evil insofar as that is the fundamental premise of your question. Secondly, TULIP is not a trinitarian doctrine - TULIP states NOTHING about the doctrine of the trinity. Furthermore your inference is NOT the "logical end" of either Molinism, the trinity or TULIP. YOUR misrepresentation of Molinism is what makes me uncomfortable, Jeff - not the logical extention of Molinism itself. You have not shown that your logical derivation is valid to begin with. Just repeating your claim that it is does not hold any water.

    ----I am not making that equivocation, but in a way it's probably true, given your beliefs. Are you gonna claim that Predestination is NOT God's will? Are mere humans able to subvert God's will? Don't you believe that God always gets His way, since He is absolutely sovereign? Whose will is more powerful than God's?
    You absolutely ARE confusing God's FOREKNOWLEDGE with his WILL. They are not the same thing. Nor is God's FOREKNOWLEDGE the same thing as predestination. You are confuing terms you apparently have yet to understand. And no, God does NOT always what he wants. For example it is God's desire that ALL people will be saved (1 Tim 2:3-4), but God knows that people like you who preach a gospel different from the one deliverdd once and for all to the saints (Jud 3) are accursed (Gal 1:8-9) and will spend eternity in hell.

    In fact, God is the only one who does NOT get what he wants when it comes to the redemption of mankind. Those who respond to his call get what they want (JESUS!). Those who refuse the truth get what they want: to be apart from God. God alone does not get what he wants - YOU and all of those who willfully submit to false "prophets" and otherwise choose to serve the father of lies instead.

    ---Feel free to elaborate on that refutation, but remember that I am holding your Molinism PLUS your Trinitarianism ("the 3 omnis") PLUS your Calvinism (Predestination, Sovereignty, Programmed, congenital, guaranteed sinning nature) under the microscope together. If that mixture results in a yukky-tasting stew, it ain't my fault or problem.
    Here again, there are so many errors, its hard to know where to start. I guess we will jsut take your errors in order: Nothing I have said conflicts with Molinism; Trinitarianism does not consist of Gods omnis and I am not a Calvinist.

    -BH

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    Last edited by BrianH; 11-05-2009 at 12:43 PM.

  6. #31
    stemelbow
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    Hey, BH, I edited the OP. I fixed the premise which you misunderstood, took issue with, and as a result ran away from answering the questions. So, with that, there is no more need for you to whine and complain, you can now go back and straight up answer the questions. Sound good?

    love,
    stem

  7. #32
    stemelbow
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    Alright you got your grandstanding and deflections in...now I fixed the OP, there is no premise involved anymore, so you can go back and answer the questions. I know you won't, but I'm trying to work with you here.

    love,
    stem

  8. #33
    stemelbow
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    He created the POSSIBILITY of evil.
    When God created ex nihilo could he have taken away the possibility of evil?

    Could He have created creatures in which evil would never have been done?

    love,
    stem

  9. #34
    BrianH
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    When God created ex nihilo could he have taken away the possibility of evil?

    Could He have created creatures in which evil would never have been done?
    Sure! Of course. But for his own transcendent reasons he obviously knew that doing so would have resulted in a universe that was not able to achieve the purpose for which he created it.

    -BH

    .

  10. #35
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    When God created ex nihilo could he have taken away the possibility of evil?

    Could He have created creatures in which evil would never have been done?

    love,
    stem
    --Along those lines: Could God have created us without a genetically-coded, pre- programmed sin nature? Did He have to make Adam and Eve p*** on their curse to all their descendants? What was in it for Him to make it that way?

  11. #36
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    Sure! Of course. But for his own transcendent reasons he obviously knew that doing so would have resulted in a universe that was not able to achieve the purpose for which he created it.

    -BH

    .
    What purpose was/is that?

  12. #37
    BrianH
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    What purpose was/is that?
    God's purposes are usually manifold. In this case, he created this universe because of His love for His creatures, His own glorification and even things that are unknowable to finite minds.

    -BH

    .

  13. #38
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    God's purposes are usually manifold. In this case, he created this universe because of His love for His creatures, His own glorification and even things that are unknowable to finite minds.

    -BH

    .
    I didn't ask why he created, per se, I asked why he created with the possibility of evil.

    love,
    stem

  14. #39
    BrianH
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    And that is the question I answered.

    -BH

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  15. #40
    BrianH
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    Hey, BH, I edited the OP. I fixed the premise which you misunderstood, took issue with, and as a result ran away from answering the questions. So, with that, there is no more need for you to whine and complain, you can now go back and straight up answer the questions. Sound good?
    I didn't run away from anything - I exposed the fallacious premise that you have now edited out AFTER I showed that you and Jeff had both contradicted yourselves based on the OPs former content.

    How incredibly dishonest you are.

    You are a man with no integrity whatsoever.

    -BH

    .

  16. #41
    BrianH
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    In light of the topic of this thread, he's clearly asking you to consider how your beliefs make God look bad...essentially. He's clearly not suggesting God made any mistakes, only that your beliefs are erroneous.
    Wrong. As I have explained several times now and you just continue to ignore: Jeff (like you) is announcing that HIS (and your) deliberate misrepresentation and revision of my beliefs make God look bad. It is YOUR dishonest and deliberately false representation of my beliefs that are erroneous.

    I never said you credited God with the creation of evil. You have failed to comprehend what I've said again.
    I have repeatedly proven that statement FALSE. AGAIN (for the third or fourth time now), YOUR very words:
    quote:>> "According to non-LDS Christianity God is the source of evil." <<: unquote

    I have busted you several times on this and NOW you have even gone back several days later and edited that statement out of the OP, thereby PROVING by your own actions that you recognize that you are not telling the truth. This is the kind of deliberate, deceptive behavior to which your Mormonism has reduced you, Stem.


    Actually your beliefs and inability to think your religious convictions through have little to do with the logical outcome of the mainstream Christian religion.
    You have just proven by your own deliberate and blatantly dishonest behavior that you lack any personal integrity whatsoever, so beyond being simply irrelevant to your own topic here, your opinion of me is meaningless.

    Alright you got your grandstanding and deflections in...now I fixed the OP, there is no premise involved anymore, so you can go back and answer the questions. I know you won't, but I'm trying to work with you here.
    Exposing the fallacies in your games and the personal dishonesty in your posts is not a "deflection", Stem - it is a direct attack on your shallow and deceptive gamesmanship. Your questions are all based on the false premise that I affirm that God is the "source of evil". That is false. If it were true, than your own deceptive behaviors here would be God's fault in my view. But that is not the case. YOU are responsible for your own demonstrated personal dishonesty.

    -BH

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  17. #42
    stemelbow
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    So are you suggesting that God could not have created "this universe because of His love for His creatures, His own glorification and even things that are unknowable to finite minds" without the possibility of evil? If that is what you are suggesting, then does that not limit God?

    If God had conceived of all evil deeds long before any creation took place, and He created from absolutely nothing--or His creations weren't in any form existent before creation, then obviously long before anyone raped, anyone murdered, or anyone mistreated another, God had already thought of it. In fact, not one evil deed would have been done if God did not already think of that which previously never was, correct?

    love,
    stem

  18. #43
    stemelbow
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    I just want someone who is a non-LDS Christian to answer the questions I asked. If you would care to attempt such then please go ahead, or we can continue in the subthread above and see where we end up, I suppose.

    love,
    stem

  19. #44
    BrianH
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    I just want someone who is a non-LDS Christian to answer the questions I asked. If you would care to attempt such then please go ahead, or we can continue in the subthread above and see where we end up, I suppose.
    Okay, let's make this simple. But, first, let's clear this up: is it or is it NOT your contention that orthodox, biblical Christianity affirms that God is the soruce of all evil. You have repeatedly made overt, self-contradictory claims on this matter, so before I answer your questions I just want to know which of these two self-contradictions you are siding with.

    Secondly, and again, to make it simple, I will respond to each of the individual questions here with one answer: Right. God created all created things, including the people whom he knew would enact every evil deed in the world's history and forthcoming future.

    -BH

    .

  20. #45
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    Okay, let's make this simple. But, first, let's clear this up: is it or is it NOT your contention that orthodox, biblical Christianity affirms that God is the soruce of all evil. You have repeatedly made overt, self-contradictory claims on this matter, so before I answer your questions I just want to know which of these two self-contradictions you are siding with.
    I do not suggest the orthodox, biblical Christianity affirms anything since orthodox Christianity is not solely based on the Bible. I would not even suggest that orthodox Christianity affirms that God is the source of all evil--mostly because its adherents by and large would reject such a notion, even if they haven't thought these things through. I would suggest if taken to its logical conclusion orthodox Christianity requires that God is the source of evil.

    Secondly, and again, to make it simple, I will respond to each of the individual questions here with one answer: Right. God created all created things, including the people whom he knew would enact every evil deed in the world's history and forthcoming future.
    Then, Brian, logically there is no other conclusion to make. God conceived of every single evil deed before He ever created a thing. Every inhumane rape, or murder only came about because God first conceived of them. If He did not conceive of them, then they never would have been. Thus, the origin of every evil action has its place in God's conception. Such is the logical conclusion of your belief system. You can deny it...you can run from its ramifications. You can easily in brazen hubris decide you are above logic and reason and thus conclude, even in spite of this, that GOd is not the source of it all. You can. You can display cognitive dissonance and fool yourself to your hearts delight. People do that kind of stuff. But doing so does not resolve the issues your religion has at all. Its far too problematic to take seriously.

    love,
    stem

  21. #46
    BrianH
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    I do not suggest the orthodox, biblical Christianity affirms anything since orthodox Christianity is not solely based on the Bible
    Biblical Christianity IS based solely on the Bible, but whether it is or not, that is irrelevant here. The fact is that historically orthodox, biblical Christianity IS "non-LDS" "Christianity" by definition and that means it is included in those whom you originally said affirm that God is the source of all evil. That is false. That is YOU trying to jack-hammer YOUR faulty inferences into our mouths and then pretend to demand that we answer for them.

    I would not even suggest that orthodox Christianity affirms that God is the source of all evil--mostly because its adherents by and large would reject such a notion, even if they haven't thought these things through. I would suggest if taken to its logical conclusion orthodox Christianity requires that God is the source of evil.
    And you would be wrong. I know you actually think that you are the God your religion tells you that you are, but believe it or not, there have been LOTS of Christians who have thought this through FAR more cogently than you ever will.

    Then, Brian, logically there is no other conclusion to make God conceived of every single evil deed before He ever created a thing. Every inhumane rape, or murder only came about because God first conceived of them. If He did not conceive of them, then they never would have been. Thus, the origin of every evil action has its place in God's conception. Such is the logical conclusion of your belief system. You can deny it...you can run from its ramifications. You can easily in brazen hubris decide you are above logic and reason and thus conclude, even in spite of this, that GOd is not the source of it all. You can. You can display cognitive dissonance and fool yourself to your hearts delight. People do that kind of stuff. But doing so does not resolve the issues your religion has at all. Its far too problematic to take seriously.
    That is false. Your conclusion is based on the faulty, unproven and merely ***umed premise that God's FOREKNOWLEDGE is the same thing as his WILL. Since your premise is unproven (and even unexamined, in YOUR mind), your logic is faulty. Now let me explain the obvious to you. God is not responsible for the evil that he knew others would commit, any more than YOU are responsible for the sins of your children, even though you knew perfectly well in advance, even before you procreated them that they would sin.

    -BH
    Last edited by BrianH; 11-06-2009 at 02:33 PM.

  22. #47
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    Biblical Christianity IS based solely on the Bible, but whether it is or not, that is irrelevant here. The fact is that historically orthodox, biblical Christianity IS "non-LDS" "Christianity" by definition and that means it is included in those whom you originally said affirm that God is the source of all evil. That is false. That is YOU trying to jack-hammer YOUR faulty inferences into our mouths and then pretend to demand that we answer for them.
    No didn't say any particular person affirmed that GOd is the source of evil...I clearly was suggesting the the mainstream Christian belief system if taken to its logical conclusion forces God to be the source of evil. Granted most, like you, haven't really thought these things through.

    And you would be wrong. I know you actually think that you are the God your religion tells you that you are, but believe it or not, there have been LOTS of Christians who have thought this through FAR more cogently than you ever will.
    And it is becoming more and more apparent you aren't one of them. Just because there are those who have thought it through hardly means the conclusion, if logically derived, is not there. In other words, its all smoke and mirrors for you here.


    That is false. Your conclusion is based on the faulty, unproven and merely ***umed premise that God's FOREKNOWLEDGE is the same thing as his WILL.
    NO. My presime ***umes no such thing. Prove that my conclusion is based on the faulty, unproven and merely ***umed presime that God's foreknowledge is the same thing as his will? My conclusions and premises were clearly stated--God, according to the mainstream Chrsitiani religion, conceived of every evil deed long before any single evil deed was ever done. He created, out of nothing mind you, every single creature and in so doing created the vehicle to do evil. He knew the deeds of every single creature before he created them.

    Since your premise is unproven (and even unexamined, in YOUR mind), your logic is faulty. Now let me explain the obvious to you. God is not responsible for the evil that he knew others would commit, any more than YOU are responsible for the sins of your children, even though you knew perfectly well in advance, even before you procreated them that they would sin.
    Wow...you are desperately throwing out all sorts of irrationals now. I didn't create anything ex nihilo, BH. So your ****ogy falls completely flat. The problem you are now faced with and are trying your best to either not think about or completely obfuscate is God created all creatures out of nothing, in your beliefs. There really is no way around the obvious at this point, logically speaking, but if you choose to avoid logic and dogmatically contradict the logical conclusion that's your personal choice. Just don't expect it to be acceptable in terms of logical debate tactics. Let's put it this way.

    I did not nor can I create any particular creature out of non-existent material, right?

    I did not conceive every evil deed which my creations will do long before I created them out of nothing, right?

    We'll go to this point. HOpefully you'll start to see the problems your religion faces. So far its obvious you are either ******** of them or are attempting to wish them away.

    love,
    stem

  23. #48
    BrianH
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    No didn't say any particular person affirmed that GOd is the source of evil...I clearly was suggesting the the mainstream Christian belief system if taken to its logical conclusion forces God to be the source of evil. Granted most, like you, haven't really thought these things through.
    I did not say you charged any "particular person" with this view, slippery. You said that "non-LDS Christians" affirm that God is the source of evil. And your conclusion is not the logical one, or at the very least not the ONLY logical conclusion. And I was thinking this through when you were still in diapers sonny.

    And it is becoming more and more apparent you aren't one of them. Just because there are those who have thought it through hardly means the conclusion, if logically derived, is not there. In other words, its all smoke and mirrors for you here.
    The problem is, your "logic" is flawed. Disagreeing with YOU does not cons***ute any kind of error, least of all a logical error. YOU are the one pulling all the smoke and mirrors, Stem. You have even resorted to going back and editing the content of your original statement to avoid accounting for the clear absurdity underlying your whole effort here.

    NO. My presime ***umes no such thing. Prove that my conclusion is based on the faulty, unproven and merely ***umed presime that God's foreknowledge is the same thing as his will? My conclusions and premises were clearly stated--God, according to the mainstream Chrsitiani religion, conceived of every evil deed long before any single evil deed was ever done. He created, out of nothing mind you, every single creature and in so doing created the vehicle to do evil. He knew the deeds of every single creature before he created them.
    Prove the error of your ***umption? Too easy! In fact YOU just did it for me! Here, we will show the necessity of your ***umption to your argument: Take away your ***umption that God's foreknowledge is the same thing as his will and you cannot even pretend (as you have) that just because God knew there would be evil, that means he is the source of that evil. And remember, you cannot appeal to God's middle knowledge, because you have no such concept available to you without admitting that I am right.

    Now let me explain your problem in a little more detail. You have ***UMED that God's knowledge of what philosophers recognize as "necessary truths" is the same thing as his knowledge of what we call "contingent truths". In fact, you don't even know the difference between these two important categories, and yet you pretend to tell me that I have not thought these things through?! Heck you don't even know what the terms mean! So let me help you out here, genius. What you have failed to recognize is what is called God's "middle knowledge", which describes things that are BOTH contingent truths AND are STILL independent of God's will. Middle knowledge refers to things that do not HAVE TO be true, but ARE true without God being the primary cause of them. YOU have mistaken necessary truth for contingent truth and attributed them all equally to God because you have no category of middle knowledge.

    Wow...you are desperately throwing out all sorts of irrationals now. I didn't create anything ex nihilo, BH. So your ****ogy falls completely flat. The problem you are now faced with and are trying your best to either not think about or completely obfuscate is God created all creatures out of nothing, in your beliefs. There really is no way around the obvious at this point, logically speaking, but if you choose to avoid logic and dogmatically contradict the logical conclusion that's your personal choice. Just don't expect it to be acceptable in terms of logical debate tactics. Let's put it this way.
    You have just accused me of using an irrational argument. Please identify the failure of my rationality. What fallacies did I commit? Where did my conclusion NOT follow my premises? When you fail to answer these simple questions it will remain obvious that you are using words you do not even understand.

    Secondly, one need NOT have created ANYTHING ex-nihilo in order to know in advance that it would fail to be perfect. You have committed a non-sequiter in ***uming that ONLY things created out of nothing are the responsibility of their creator. That is false. The FACT is, you most certainly do NOT take responsibility for the sins of your children and you know it. But using your damaged logic (the creator is responsible for the acts of the creature), you MUST. But you DONT. YOU are the one avoiding YOUR OWN logic, Stem. Whether you created your children ex nihlo or not, you are STILL not responsible for their sins.

    I did not nor can I create any particular creature out of non-existent material, right?
    Again, this is irrelevant to the ****ogy. The simple fact is that before you procreated your children, they did not exist. After you procreated them, they sinned just like you most certainly knew they would. So using YOUR damaged logic, YOU are responsible for their sin, because had you NOT procreated them, they would never have existed in order to make the choice to sin. But you procreated them ANYWAY in the full knowledge that they would do evil.

    I did not conceive every evil deed which my creations will do long before I created them out of nothing, right?
    Again, irrelevant to the ****ogy, it does not matter in principle. You KNEW for certain that your own children would sin, and in fact you DID know at least MANY of the specific kinds of sins they would commit, such as disrespecting you. (And if you did NOT know for certain that your children absolutely would disrespect you, you are even further divorced from reality than most other Mormons).

    Meanwhile, I note with interest that you have yet to even try to answer your own question from the Mormon perspective, which is quite telling given the fact that this is the MORMON board.

    -BH

    .
    Last edited by BrianH; 11-06-2009 at 03:56 PM.

  24. #49
    stemelbow
    Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianH View Post
    I did not say you charged any "particular person" with this view, slippery. You said that "non-LDS Christians" affirm that God is the source of evil. And your conclusion is not the logical one, or at the very least not the ONLY logical conclusion. And I was thinking this through when you were still in diapers sonny.
    You previously said, "The fact is that historically orthodox, biblical Christianity IS "non-LDS" "Christianity" by definition and that means it is included in those whom you originally said affirm that God is the source of all evil."

    Who is the "whom" you refer to? Those particular people who consider themselves non-LDS Christians of course. Those particular people. I did not suggest any particular people affirmed that God is the source of evil. I suggested that non-LDS Christianity if taken to its logical conclusion forces God to be the source of evil. And it remains obvious you haven't really though this all through, just like many of your co-religionists. I do not suggest you or any of your co-religionists affirm that God is the source of evil, even though JD once admitted God certainly is indirectly.

    Prove the error of your ***umption? Too easy! In fact YOU just did it for me! Here, we will show the necessity of your ***umption to your argument: Take away your ***umption that God's foreknowledge is the same thing as his will and you cannot even pretend (as you have) that just because God knew there would be evil, that means he is the source of that evil. And remember, you cannot appeal to God's middle knowledge, because you have no such concept available to you without admitting that I am right.
    Sadly my point, untouched by you for some reason we'll have to get to later, is that taking His will out of the equation altogether still, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces upon God to be the source of evil. I'll re-explain since you have failed to address it. God conceived of every evil act that each of his creations would do before He created them out of nothing. Its really that simple. Evil started in God's conception as a result. It did not start in any particular act a man or the devil did...it was before they/we even existed.

    Now let me explain your problem in a little more detail. You have ***UMED that God's knowledge of what philosophers recognize as "necessary truths" is the same thing as his knowledge of what we call "contingent truths". <snip>
    This is a clear obfuscation, BH, just like your desperate flailing molinism reference. I haven't ***umed anything about what God considers true. Get back on topic if you will.

    You have just accused me of using an irrational argument. Please identify the failure of my rationality. What fallacies did I commit? Where did my conclusion NOT follow my premises? When you fail to answer these simple questions it will remain obvious that you are using words you do not even understand.
    Weak ****ogy would fit best. Your ****ogy rests on the notion that me having offspring is akin to God creating everything out of nothing in terms of knowing what the offspring or creature will do.

    You are ***uming (A) God and (B) ME are similar
    Since in your estimation God can create ex nihilo and knows full well each deed each creation will do before creating that that somehow equates to me having offspring when I can't create ex nihilo or know anything my offspring will do.

    Secondly, one need NOT have created ANYTHING ex-nihilo in order to know in advance that it would fail to be perfect.
    That's total obfuscation again, BH. This has nothing to do with knowing something would fail to be perfect but has everything to do with God conceiving of each and every evil deed that would be practiced before He went ahead and created. You are continually missing the point, most likely because you haven't thought these things through, but possibly because you are trying to obscure things so they don't seem so bad.

    You have committed a non-sequiter in ***uming that ONLY things created out of nothing are the responsibility of their creator. That is false. The FACT is, you most certainly do NOT take responsibility for the sins of your children and you know it.
    This makes no sense and outlines your desperation. My offspring are not created by me ex nihilo. So your vain attempt to describe it as a non sequitur, misspelling notwithstanding but an obvious error showing your i-gnorance, is erroneous.

    But using your damaged logic (the creator is responsible for the acts of the creature), you MUST. But you DONT. YOU are the one avoiding YOUR OWN logic, Stem. Whether you created your children ex nihlo or not, you are STILL not responsible for their sins.
    You have misunderstood from the beginning. I never suggested I'm responsible for my offspring's sins. My goodness what are you trying to say that God procreated all of us even though we in some way already existed? You're so all over the place, it's adorable.

    Again, this is irrelevant to the ****ogy. The simple fact is that before you procreated your children, they did not exist. After you procreated them, they sinned just like you most certainly knew they would. So using YOUR damaged logic, YOU are responsible for their sin, because had you NOT procreated them, they would never have existed in order to make the choice to sin. But you procreated them ANYWAY in the full knowledge that they would do evil.
    Wow you missed it completely. Hopefully if you actually read what I write this time you'll get it.

    Again, irrelevant to the ****ogy, it does not matter in principle. You KNEW for certain that your own children would sin, and in fact you DID know at least MANY of the specific kinds of sins they would commit, such as disrespecting you. (And if you did NOT know for certain that your children absolutely would disrespect you, you are even further divorced from reality than most other Mormons).
    BH you are either woefully i-gnorant of LDS teaching or even more woefully i-gnorant of the ramifications of your own beliefs. Either way your desperate flailing here is adorable to watch, if nothing else. My offspring, according to my beliefs, exist whether I procreate or not. That's a huge difference that you just don't seem to get. We are highlighting how your beliefs are problematic and you just don't seem to get it, most likely because you haven't thought about it. I'm trying to help you, but if you obtusely refuse to listen then you'll most likely remain woefully i-gnorant of the ramifications of your beliefs.

    Meanwhile, I note with interest that you have yet to even try to answer your own question from the Mormon perspective, which is quite telling given the fact that this is the MORMON board.
    Oh, BH, its not that hard to figure out. Notably you haven't tried to figure your own religions beliefs out so its no surprise you can't figure mine out. To me, God did not create ex nihilo, therefore even though He knew the deeds I would do, my existence was. Therefore my deeds whether good or evil were going to happen outside of his control. I know you'll try your best to focus in on my beliefs in some unrelated fashion to get out of it all, but let's not get completely silly here as you often do.

    love,
    stem

  25. #50
    BrianH
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    You previously said, "The fact is that historically orthodox, biblical Christianity IS "non-LDS" "Christianity" by definition and that means it is included in those whom you originally said affirm that God is the source of all evil."

    Who is the "whom" you refer to?
    Why ...All non-LDS who are Christians, of course. I would have thought that was obvious.

    Sadly my point, untouched by you for some reason we'll have to get to later, is that taking His will out of the equation altogether still, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces upon God to be the source of evil. I'll re-explain since you have failed to address it. God conceived of every evil act that each of his creations would do before He created them out of nothing. Its really that simple. Evil started in God's conception as a result. It did not start in any particular act a man or the devil did...it was before they/we even existed.
    Well here we have a perfect illustration of your problem. You think you can blame God for things that are not in his will. That is the fundamental problem here, and you have not explained (much less "re-explained") how you can even pretend to blame God for evil just becuase he knew it would happen.

    BH>>Now let me explain your problem in a little more detail. You have ***UMED that God's knowledge of what philosophers recognize as "necessary truths" is the same thing as his knowledge of what we call "contingent truths". <snip>

    S>This is a clear obfuscation, BH, just like your desperate flailing molinism reference. I haven't ***umed anything about what God considers true. Get back on topic if you will.
    "Obfuscation"?? What's the matter Stem, could you not understand the big words. This is simple. There are what we recognize as "necessary truths" and "contingent truths". They are not the same thing. Your hand-waving dismissal does not sustain your accusation here.


    Weak ****ogy would fit best. Your ****ogy rests on the notion that me having offspring is akin to God creating everything out of nothing in terms of knowing what the offspring or creature will do.
    If that is the best you can do, then you have nothing. The fact is, in the context of knowing our children will do evil things, my ****ogy is sufficient. God knew that we would sin, just like you know that your children will sin. Your children did not exist before you procreated them. Whether they were created out of the myth of "eternal matter" or not is irrelevant to the ****ogy.

    That's total obfuscation again, BH. This has nothing to do with knowing something would fail to be perfect but has everything to do with God conceiving of each and every evil deed that would be practiced before He went ahead and created. You are continually missing the point, most likely because you haven't thought these things through, but possibly because you are trying to obscure things so they don't seem so bad.
    Once again, having no actual argument to refute my position, all you can do is demonstrate your difficulty understanding my rather simple and obvious point by calling it an obfuscation. Furthermore, your rhetoric is getting increasingly desperate (as usual). Knowing people would commit evil acts in advance has EVERYTHING to do with knowing that people would commit evil acts. Yes, God went ahead and created - but he did not commit the evil acts. YOU actually commit your own sins, Stem. Just because God knew you would sin does not mean that he created the sin you comm***ed.

    This makes no sense and outlines your desperation. My offspring are not created by me ex nihilo. So your vain attempt to describe it as a non sequitur, misspelling notwithstanding but an obvious error showing your i-gnorance, is erroneous.
    While your opinion is predictable, you have failed to substantiate it with a valid argument. Whether you created them out of existing matter or not is IRRELEVANT; the FACT is they did not exist such that they COULD sin and then, AFTER you procreated them, they did exist and DID sin, just as you knew they would. Using your mistaken logic in pretending that God must be held accountable for all evil (on the Christian view), YOU are equally responsible for the sins of your children.

    Or are you somehow above the judgment that you require me to place on God?

    You have misunderstood from the beginning. I never suggested I'm responsible for my offspring's sins. My goodness what are you trying to say that God procreated all of us even though we in some way already existed? You're so all over the place, it's adorable.
    I understood since before you even asked the question, Stem. And YOU are the one who has just demonstrated that YOU do not even understand what you just read: I never said that YOU suggested you are responsible. Learn to read. I am the one telling YOU that according to your damaged logic, if God is responsible for sin because he created the people who commit it knowing in advance that they will sin, then YOU are equally responsible for the sins of your children because you procreated them, knowing in advance that they would sin. You are not above the judgment that you place on God as you misrepresent the Christian view.

    Wow you missed it completely. Hopefully if you actually read what I write this time you'll get it.
    More meaningless hand waving dismissals from the Mormon. Your empty rhetoic followed by NOTHING where you SHOULD be substantiating your accusations is all anyone needs to see to conclude that you are now shooting blanks. That did not take long at all.

    BH you are either woefully i-gnorant of LDS teaching or even more woefully i-gnorant of the ramifications of your own beliefs. Either way your desperate flailing here is adorable to watch, if nothing else. My offspring, according to my beliefs, exist whether I procreate or not. That's a huge difference that you just don't seem to get. We are highlighting how your beliefs are problematic and you just don't seem to get it, most likely because you haven't thought about it. I'm trying to help you, but if you obtusely refuse to listen then you'll most likely remain woefully i-gnorant of the ramifications of your beliefs.
    As usual, you post no actual argument, just hand-waving dismissals and repe***ions of your claims. Where you SHOULD be offering reasoned arguments in support of your claims, all you are doing is repeating them. But ...This is the sum total of the state of all Mormon apologetics, so no one should be surprised.

    Oh, BH, its not that hard to figure out. Notably you haven't tried to figure your own religions beliefs out so its no surprise you can't figure mine out. To me, God did not create ex nihilo, therefore even though He knew the deeds I would do, my existence was. Therefore my deeds whether good or evil were going to happen outside of his control. I know you'll try your best to focus in on my beliefs in some unrelated fashion to get out of it all, but let's not get completely silly here as you often do.
    To you, God is an exalted man who operates under laws that existed before he could obey them. You think the God of the Bible has his own Gods, despite the fact that he tells you in perfectly obvious terms that he does not know any other Gods.

    Meanwhile, that God created ex-nihlo is irrelevant to the issue here. The God of the Bible is transcendent over creation and thus not subject to its confines and limitations. Just because God fore-knew that evil would exist, that does not mean that he performed the evil that has occurred. Your attempt to misrepresent the Christian view and then make me account for your misrepresentation has failed. The Christian view is that YOU were created in the image of God with free will and YOU chose to sin; God did not cause you to sin.

    -BH

    .

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