Let us spotlight and particular teaching

[stemelbow]

I got some questions

Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?

***uming all the above is in line with your beliefs lets move on...

God created beings and knew each and every action each being would do throughout eternity, right?

He knew, for instance, that little Russ would tell his mom a lie when he was little, right?

But God, being all-powerful, didn't have to create any beings who would do anything evil right?

Without creating there would be no evil practiced there would only be God, right?

A creature would not do evil things if God first did not create that being out of nothing knowing full well all actions that being would do, right?

God knew which beings would be saved eternally and which beings would be ****ed for eternity before creating any of them, right?

God did not have to create any beings who would be ****ed for eternity, right?

There would be absolutely no suffering, of the worst kind, if God did not create, right?

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

love,
stem

[nrajeff]

Stem, if you get little in the way of responses, would it be all right if I posted my Parable of the Hasbro Evil Robot Designer/Engineer/***embler ?

[stemelbow]

Let's give it a little longer. I'm sure I won't get any answers to my questions mostly because they are such awful answer dodgers, as they accuse us, but we'll see.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

I got some questions.

According to non-LDS Christianity God is the source of evil.

If you are unfamiliar with your beliefs and how your beliefs do this let me explain it to you, through questions:

First of all, I am quite familiar with my beliefs, so I certainly do not need you to explain them to me.

Secondly, it is obvious that YOU do NOT understand my beliefs, given your misrepresentation of them right here.

Third, since the rest of your questions are based on the unsubstantiated, falacious and false premise (that God is the source of evil), they deserve no more answer than if you had asked me to give you the date on which I stopped selling crack to first graders.

While it is obvious that you are unfamilair with the range of thought Christian scholars and philosophers have represented on this matter, if you would like me to explain my own understanding of the origin of evil, just ask. Meanwhile, since this is the MORMON forum, I suggest that rather than pretending to dictate to others what they believe, you have a responsibility to represent the MORMON view on this topic. But don't pretend to dictate to me what I believe either by fallacious questions or any other means.

-BH

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[stemelbow]

So you refuse to answer questions? No need to fear. If I'm wrong, then plainly tell me, by answering the questions, in which way I'm wrong. It'd be a delight to hear you actually attempt a defense of your own belief system. I dont believe I've every seen you try to defend your beliefs before.

Or you can run in fear...again.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

So you refuse to answer questions? No need to fear. If I'm wrong, then plainly tell me, by answering the questions, in which way I'm wrong. It'd be a delight to hear you actually attempt a defense of your own belief system. I dont believe I've every seen you try to defend your beliefs before

I refuse to answer questions based on fallacious premises. You may not "believe" you have ever seen me defend my beliefs, but as usual, what you believe does not reflect reality.

I am happy to explain my understanding on the issue of the origin and nature of evil if you like. I am a Molinist. Now run off to google and discover what that means, or if you prefer I will explain it to you.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by BrianH

I refuse to answer questions based on fallacious premises.

I see that you refuse to answer questions. It appears you have something to hide...again.

You may not "believe" you have ever seen me defend my beliefs, but as usual, what you believe does not reflect reality.

I'm sure you've attempted at some point in time a defense of your religion but I don't think you do it when I'm around. Perhaps your attempts at defending your faith have been totally futile and so you refuse to do it anymore?

I am happy to explain my understanding on the issue of the origin and nature of evil if you like. I am a Molinist. Now run off to google and discover what that means, or if you prefer I will explain it to you.

I would prefer you simply answer some questions instead of play your puffing up the chest games. I think it'll be much more enlightening to me than your obscure and inarticulate explanation of your beliefs.

Since you're plain afraid to answer them, I'll go ahead and realize you have conceded the point.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

I see that you refuse to answer questions. It appears you have something to hide...again.

Had you bothered to actually read the post to which you are responding, you would not have made this mistake. At this point it is obvious that you are at a loss and now have to try to cover your retreat from your empty rhetoric with MORE empty rhetoric.

I'm sure you've attempted at some point in time a defense of your religion but I don't think you do it when I'm around. Perhaps your attempts at defending your faith have been totally futile and so you refuse to do it anymore?

And you are wrong again. I have MANY times defended my beliefs directly to YOU and you know it. Meanwhile, MY beliefs are not MORMON beliefs and are thus not the focus of THIS board.

I would prefer you simply answer some questions instead of play your puffing up the chest games. I think it'll be much more enlightening to me than your obscure and inarticulate explanation of your beliefs.

Of course you would "prefer" that I answer your questions. That is becaue you lack the capacity to be honest enough to let me explain my own views apart from your obviously fallacious premises. But if you don't think my answers are sufficinely clear and articulate, why are you asking for me to provide my "obscure and inarticulate explanations" to begin with? It seems you are once again caught in a self-contradiction.

Since you're plain afraid to answer them, I'll go ahead and realize you have conceded the point.

"Afraid"??? No, smart. I am smart enough to recognize faulty premises and the desperate attempts of Mormons to pretend to dictate to me what my beliefs are. At this point it is obvious that you are not at all interested in finding out what I think, you just want me to jump through the hoops of your fallacious questions while mindlessly following your unsubstantiated premises. I am simply not as stoooopid as you want to pretend, Stem. in fact I am MUCH smarter than you.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

Alright, you got your gaming in. Now if you're up to it go ahead and answer the questions. Or hide if you prefer behind those who you think have done the thinking for you by claiming you're a molinist, as if that settles it. I don't care...either way.

meanwhile your fear of answering the questions only confirms to me that you have no logical way to avoid the idea that your beliefs make God into the very source of evil...sadly.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

Alright, you got your gaming in. Now if you're up to it go ahead and answer the questions. Or hide if you prefer behind those who you think have done the thinking for you by claiming you're a molinist, as if that settles it. I don't care...either way.

Gaming? I see you are unwilling to abandon your usual empty rhetoric. What you dismiss as "gaming" is me explicitly identifying the fact that your questions are all based on the fallacy of a false premise. I do not believe that God is the source of evil as you claimed. I therefore have no obligation to answer questions based on the ***umption that I DO believe that God is the soruce of evil.

Secondly, it is obvious that you do not even know what Molinism is, nor do you have any grounds to claim that I have not thought about these matters. That you don't care is only further proof of just how shallow and uneducated you really are on this matter.

meanwhile your fear of answering the questions only confirms to me that you have no logical way to avoid the idea that your beliefs make God into the very source of evil...sadly.

As you try to once again tell me what my beleifs are, I can only stand in awe at the arrogance and ignoranc e required of Mormons. What you dismiss as my supposed "fear" is the simple fact that your lame and childish little parlor tricks are no more effective on me than your attempt to dictate to me what my beliefs are. That you would even ATTEMPT such stooooopid little tricks as these only shows that you actually thought they would work.

Apparently you think that everyone else is just as easy to fool as you are.

-BH

.

[nrajeff]

So, Brian the Molinist: What "would have happened" if God had NOT been the cause of all the evil in the universe? I mean, I can think up one result: A universe where everything that He'd created and called "very good" would have REMAINED very good forever. But somehow that result must not have been a "very good" idea. So: What else you got in the way of answers from your cult of Molinism?

[BrianH]

So, Brian the Molinist: What "would have happened" if God had NOT been the cause of all the evil in the universe.

Your question errs in ***uming the fallacious and unsupported premise that God WAS the cause of all the evil in the universe.

I mean, I can think up one result: A universe where everything that He'd created and called "very good" would have REMAINED very good forever.

So what? Are you suggesting that God made a mistake? If so ...well, I know you Momrons are incredibly arrogant (even to the point of thinking that YOU are "Gods"), but I suggest you have a responsibility to back up such a claim.

So: What else you got in the way of answers from your cult of Molinism?

Here we have yet another demonstration of the rhetorical desperation of Mormons. Molinism is not a "cult" in either the sociolgoical or religious contexts. There is no organized body, no creed, no leader, no specific, exclusive dogma nor any of the other characteristics of a "cult" thus the term does not appy - unless you mean to use it in the generic and essentially meaningless sense of a group that believes similar things.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

First of all I like Jeff's question, hopefully by my response you're not going to just respond to me, as you do, without addressing the OP, appropriately, and run from answering him. Such is the risk, I suppose.

Originally Posted by BrianH

Gaming? I see you are unwilling to abandon your usual empty rhetoric. What you dismiss as "gaming" is me explicitly identifying the fact that your questions are all based on the fallacy of a false premise. I do not believe that God is the source of evil as you claimed. I therefore have no obligation to answer questions based on the ***umption that I DO believe that God is the soruce of evil.

You have no obligation to respond at all. My premise did not suggest you believed God is the source of evil. One can certainly accept all the beliefs of the mainstream Christian group and still, in a blatant display of illogic and self-denial, claim he/she believes God is not the source of evil. the point is, no matter that many philosophical efforts to muddy the fact that your religion forces God, if taken to its logical conclusion, to be the very source of evil, is that even in spite of your explanations, or rather the explanations of those you wish to parrot (Molina himself), your religion still forces upon God that he is the source of evil. Deny it all you want. Run from questions posed to you all you want. Obfuscate and whimper. it doesn't matter. You're only showing that your religious belief is empty and perhaps a little sinister.

Secondly, it is obvious that you do not even know what Molinism is, nor do you have any grounds to claim that I have not thought about these matters. That you don't care is only further proof of just how shallow and uneducated you really are on this matter.

How about you answer the questions instead of run and hide behind your hostility? I know you have had a very difficult time understanding what it means to actually answer questions, but I'm confident after I went through the process of explaining it to you, that you can answer yes or no questions. You can do it. I have confidence in you.

As you try to once again tell me what my beleifs are, I can only stand in awe at the arrogance and ignoranc e required of Mormons. What you dismiss as my supposed "fear" is the simple fact that your lame and childish little parlor tricks are no more effective on me than your attempt to dictate to me what my beliefs are. That you would even ATTEMPT such stooooopid little tricks as these only shows that you actually thought they would work.

That's all beside the point and a rather silly distraction on your part. The questions remain unanswered. Your response, which is nothing more than a "how dare you question my beliefs", only helps my point, BH. If you consider me asking questions a trick, even to the point of you running from the questions with your tail between your legs, then that is your irrational fear, BH, and not my fault.

Apparently you think that everyone else is just as easy to fool as you are.

ahhhh so you concede that your efforts here are nothing more than an effort to fool me, or other LDS folks for that matter. Of course we all knew that, it's just nice to see you admit it, even if you admitted it not realizing you did so. If you dedicated yourself to civil, constructive dialogue we may actually get somewhere around here in our conversations. Behind all your huff and puff grandstanding I know deep down your just a little afraid that your beliefs will be exposed as the hoax that they are. Thus, your front of having to try to trick the LDS folks. Only fear God, BH. That's my advice to you. You can actually shed the deep religious hold them evangelicals have on you, open up, and embrace a much more interesting, solid, and productive faith. Until then, I'll happily leave you to your incessant whining and bitter anecdotes.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

So what? Are you suggesting that God made a mistake? If so ...well, I know you Momrons are incredibly arrogant (even to the point of thinking that YOU are "Gods"), but I suggest you have a responsibility to back up such a claim.

I can't help myself but to comment on this. No one is suggesting God made any mistakes...the obvious point is your religion makes God out to be the bad guy, if the precepts of your religion are taken to their logical conclusion (which you conceded you can't/don't do). The point being your religion is at fault here, not Jeff's question; albeit the hostility you expressed because he asked a question says something.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

Here are some QUESTIONS, and ONLY some QUESTIONS:

1) Do you believe God created everything (other than God) out of nothing (ex nihilo)?

2) If so, before creating (ex nihilo) everything other than God, was God the one and only thing in all of existence ?

3) If so, at that point, doesn't that mean evil existed with God, since God was the only thing in existence at that moment before God created other things ?

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

I'd like to see how those who profess to be Christians answer those questions.

[BrianH]

I can't help myself but to comment on this. No one is suggesting God made any mistakes...the obvious point is your religion makes God out to be the bad guy, if the precepts of your religion are taken to their logical conclusion (which you conceded you can't/don't do). The point being your religion is at fault here, not Jeff's question; albeit the hostility you expressed because he asked a question says something.

Jeff suggested that God made the mistake of creating evil and even posed what he regarded as a better universe.

Seconly, since I do NOT credit God with the creation of evil as you have now repeatedly and deliberately misrepresented, it is impossible that my religion makes God out to be the bad guy. Don't you EVER get tired of getting caught deliberately misrepresenting the views of other people in public. Have you NO honor whatsoever?

-BH

.

[BrianH]

First of all I like Jeff's question, hopefully by my response you're not going to just respond to me, as you do, without addressing the OP, appropriately, and run from answering him. Such is the risk, I suppose.

You can like his question until your eyes bleed, Stem - that does not make it any less fallacious.

You have no obligation to respond at all. My premise did not suggest you believed God is the source of evil.

That is observably false. YOUR very words:

quote:>> "According to non-LDS Christianity God is the source of evil." <<: unquote

When you can decide just WHAT you are trying to suggest, you are welcome to try to engage in a rational discussion about it. But if even YOU don't know what you are trying to say, don't expect me to be able to beat it out of you.

One can certainly accept all the beliefs of the mainstream Christian group and still, in a blatant display of illogic and self-denial, claim he/she believes God is not the source of evil.

See ...you just did it again.

the point is, no matter that many philosophical efforts to muddy the fact that your religion forces God, if taken to its logical conclusion, to be the very source of evil, is that even in spite of your explanations, or rather the explanations of those you wish to parrot (Molina himself), your religion still forces upon God that he is the source of evil. Deny it all you want. Run from questions posed to you all you want. Obfuscate and whimper. it doesn't matter. You're only showing that your religious belief is empty and perhaps a little sinister.

Serious backpedaling here. YOU are the one who is saying that biblical Christianity makes God the source of evil, Stem. THEN you deny it. THEN you reaffirm the very thing you denied! You are obviously as confused as you are uneducated on the matter.

How about you answer the questions instead of run and hide behind your hostility? I know you have had a very difficult time understanding what it means to actually answer questions, but I'm confident after I went through the process of explaining it to you, that you can answer yes or no questions. You can do it. I have confidence in you.

I already gave you a clear and direct explanation as to why I will not answer your questions. You are ***UMING (AND denying ...LOL!!) that I believe God is the source of all evil and all of your questions proceed on that incorrect ***umption. My hostility is directed at YOU for repeatedly and deliberately misrepresenting my views and even being so arrogant as to insist that you somehow know more about my beliefs than I do, especially since it is so obvious that you are not well-read on this matter at all. In fact you are obviously totally ignroan t and that is why you are forced to ask such hopelessly uninformed questions.

That's all beside the point and a rather silly distraction on your part. The questions remain unanswered. Your response, which is nothing more than a "how dare you question my beliefs", only helps my point, BH. If you consider me asking questions a trick, even to the point of you running from the questions with your tail between your legs, then that is your irrational fear, BH, and not my fault.

No it is NOT beside the point at all. YOU have pretended to tell me what I think. My refuting your obviously stooopid antics are NOT beside the point; my refuting your claims DIRECTLY attacks your point. Furthermore, as you continue to misrepresent my words, I have not said or implied that you are not allowed to question my beliefs. I am telling you what SHOULD have been obvious, were you not so arrogant and Mormon-like - I will not allow you to DICTATE to me what my beliefs are. Finally, asking questions is not a trick. Asking questions based on false premises is the trick you are trying to play here and its just not working.

Here, lets play your own trick on you: Tell me, Stem, when did you stop abusing the neighborhood children? And if asking this questions causes you to "run with your tail between your legs" then so be it.

ahhhh so you concede that your efforts here are nothing more than an effort to fool me, or other LDS folks for that matter. ...<snip> (followed by one of the most desperately irrational diatribes I have ever read ...even for a Mormon)

How you can even pretend to have arrived at this desperate leap of irrational inference is beyond any speculation. What I SAID was: YOU obviously think that everyone else is as gullible as YOU are. YOU are the one asking questions based on an observably FALSE premise.

What ...Are you STILL abusing children, Stemlebow?


-BH

.

[John T]

The OP begins like this

I got some questions. According to non-LDS Christianity God is the source of evil...

That is not a question, but a statement.

The term "non-LDS Christianity" is an oxymoron, and an impossibility. It is impossible to conclude that the members of the LDS church are close to being Christians, no matter how loudly thay scream at us; it does not change the facts.

Saying "God is the author of evil: is outright lie, an attack and a blasphemy that has been many times debated, and answered, but the critics of Christianity fail to accept the answer.

The answer is that God is sovereign over all things, and his permitting something does not make him the author of it. God created humanity with a free will, and God will not violate that. It is not in his nature to do that. That way, those who choose to accept God's plan of salvation do do by their own free will, and those who reject God's plan of salvation, also do it via free will. That is the short story.

Your position seems to be rejecting the God of the Bible because you are accusing the only, wise God, a God of love, mercy and comp***ion to be the author of evil. That is prima facie that you know neither God, nor his son, Jesus Christ sufficiently for salvation. Therefore you are stating to all who read, that you, stemelbow deliberately and evilly choose to reject the God who created the way of salvation.

Therefore, due to your evil choice, you are not going to enter into the Kingdom of God, and I AM NOT GLEEFUL TO SAY IT. It saddens me greatly, but I gotta tell you the truth that your evil choices result in eternal, painful separation from God.

I truly hope that that is not the case. I tell you the truth in this, and in other matters, but only you can choose for yourself.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by BrianH

You can like his question until your eyes bleed, Stem - that does not make it any less fallacious.

Yeah, I knew you would refuse to answer it too.

That is observably false. YOUR very words:

quote:>> "According to non-LDS Christianity God is the source of evil." <<: unquote

According to Brian's belief God is not the source of evil in spite of his own religion forcing God, if taken to its logical conclusion, to be the source of evil.

Serious backpedaling here. YOU are the one who is saying that biblical Christianity makes God the source of evil, Stem.

Not true, I did not say "biblical Christianity"make God the source of evil...I said the mainstream Christianity would if taken to its logical conclusion make God the source of evil.

I already gave you a clear and direct explanation as to why I will not answer your questions.

I get it. You deny that God is the source of evil, in spite of the very conclusion of mainstream Christianity is that God is the source of evil.

My hostility is directed at YOU for repeatedly and deliberately misrepresenting my views and even being so arrogant as to insist that you somehow know more about my beliefs than I do, especially since it is so obvious that you are not well-read on this matter at all. In fact you are obviously totally ignroan t and that is why you are forced to ask such hopelessly uninformed questions.

If the questions are so hopelessly uninformed, then you ought to straighten them out by answering them directly.

No it is NOT beside the point at all. YOU have pretended to tell me what I think. My refuting your obviously stooopid antics are NOT beside the point; my refuting your claims DIRECTLY attacks your point.

Sadly you can't and didn't refute anything. You have merely ***erted that my explanation is wrong and have run away from the questions initially asked.

Furthermore, as you continue to misrepresent my words, I have not said or implied that you are not allowed to question my beliefs.

Actually I would suggest your refusal to answer questions in regards to your beliefs suggests you wish your beliefs weren't ever questioned.

I am telling you what SHOULD have been obvious, were you not so arrogant and Mormon-like - I will not allow you to DICTATE to me what my beliefs are. Finally, asking questions is not a trick. Asking questions based on false premises is the trick you are trying to play here and its just not working.

Answer the questions and prove the premise is wrong, BrianH. Yes or No questions are pretty easy to answer. Remember that whole not being able to tell whether someone answered a question or not I explained to you...you can use that to help you answer the questions.

Here, lets play your own trick on you: Tell me, Stem, when did you stop abusing the neighborhood children?

I never abused anyone therefore I never stopped that which I never started. See how easy it is to answer questions, BH?

And if asking this questions causes you to "run with your tail between your legs" then so be it.

How you can even pretend to have arrived at this desperate leap of irrational inference is beyond any speculation. What I SAID was: YOU obviously think that everyone else is as gullible as YOU are. YOU are the one asking questions based on an observably FALSE premise.

You didn't say anything about being gullible. You said:

Apparently you think that everyone else is just as easy to fool as you are.

Clearly implying that you have fooled me. I know you are trying to trick me, I see it often, but I would like to see where how you have fooled me.

What ...Are you STILL abusing children, Stemlebow?

Never have, BH. See I can answer questions without fear, unlike you.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Jeff suggested that God made the mistake of creating evil and even posed what he regarded as a better universe.

In light of the topic of this thread, he's clearly asking you to consider how your beliefs make God look bad...essentially. He's clearly not suggesting God made any mistakes, only that your beliefs are erroneous.

Seconly, since I do NOT credit God with the creation of evil as you have now repeatedly and deliberately misrepresented

I never said you credited God with the creation of evil. You have failed to comprehend what I've said again.

, it is impossible that my religion makes God out to be the bad guy. Don't you EVER get tired of getting caught deliberately misrepresenting the views of other people in public. Have you NO honor whatsoever?

Actually your beliefs and inability to think your religious convictions through have little to do with the logical outcome of the mainstream Christian religion.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by John T

The OP begins like this
That is not a question, but a statement.

Fair enough. But the questions that followed are questions. My mistake. I edited the OP just for you.

The term "non-LDS Christianity" is an oxymoron, and an impossibility. It is impossible to conclude that the members of the LDS church are close to being Christians, no matter how loudly thay scream at us; it does not change the facts.

Let's get back on topic. How about you answer the questions in the OP instead of quibble about this non-related comment?

Saying "God is the author of evil: is outright lie, an attack and a blasphemy that has been many times debated, and answered, but the critics of Christianity fail to accept the answer.

The answer is that God is sovereign over all things, and his permitting something does not make him the author of it. God created humanity with a free will, and God will not violate that. It is not in his nature to do that. That way, those who choose to accept God's plan of salvation do do by their own free will, and those who reject God's plan of salvation, also do it via free will. That is the short story.

Oh I've heard that plenty of times. It does not take into account many things, some of which you will realize will be brought to light if you decide to answer the questions I posed.

Your position seems to be rejecting the God of the Bible because you are accusing the only, wise God, a God of love, mercy and comp***ion to be the author of evil.

Not at all. BrianH, would say you need to learn to read...I'm not saying what you just suggested at all.

That is prima facie that you know neither God, nor his son, Jesus Christ sufficiently for salvation. Therefore you are stating to all who read, that you, stemelbow deliberately and evilly choose to reject the God who created the way of salvation.

Not in the least, I accept God and His Son Jesus Christ. But this is all beside the point and is clearly a deflection.

Therefore, due to your evil choice, you are not going to enter into the Kingdom of God, and I AM NOT GLEEFUL TO SAY IT. It saddens me greatly, but I gotta tell you the truth that your evil choices result in eternal, painful separation from God.

Interesting...so would you say that before I was ever created God knew that I would end up suffering eternal painful separation? Is it the worst kind of suffering imaginable?

I truly hope that that is not the case. I tell you the truth in this, and in other matters, but only you can choose for yourself.

It'd be nice if you chose to answer the questions and didn't run straight to other matters in hopes not to stay on topic.

love,
stem

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Your question errs in ***uming the fallacious and unsupported premise that God WAS the cause of all the evil in the universe.

---I was just following your belief that God is the Uncaused Cause, and combining it with one pillar of your Molinism: Your belief that besides God knowing everything that IS, He also knows everything that MIGHT HAVE BEEN if He'd done things DIFFERENTLY. Kind of like how a good chess player can look ahead several moves and think "If I go THERE, then my opponent would go THERE...."

So, if your God is really absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign, then He is absolutely responsible for EVERYTHING, both good and bad, that happens in His universe. He can't put the blame on anyone else, because, by your definition of Him, no one else is absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign. Your God gets all the credit for all the good, and He also gets all the blame for all the bad.

Now, you are a Molin (like you call me a Mormon...get it?). So, following that pillar of your Molinism, I looked at what IS--the world He'd created and all its inhabitants fallen, evil, none of them that do good, none of them righteous, with Satan wreaking misery, death, pain, destruction and sorrow on everyone--and plugged that into the Molinism Computer. Your Molinisitic God must have considered all the possible combinations and permutations of all of His OTHER options or alternatives--decisions He COULD HAVE made but didn't--and ONE of those outcomes was a universe that REMAINED "very good," with NO evil, no Satan in it. He must have decided that the reality that we ARE in was somehow preferable to that one, right? Otherwise, He'd have done things differently with the GOOD universe as a result instead of this EVIL universe.

So I was just wondering if you had any additional scenarios to add, besides the one that I thought of. Surely you understand Molinism better than I do--after all, it's YOUR religion, not mine--and so you must have more insights than the one I had.

[BrianH]

I was just following your belief that God is the Uncaused Cause, and combining it with one pillar of your Molinism: Your belief that besides God knowing everything that IS, He also knows everything that MIGHT HAVE BEEN if He'd done things DIFFERENTLY. Kind of like how a good chess player can look ahead several moves and think "If I go THERE, then my opponent would go THERE...."

And then you were what ...trying to tell me that you have a better idea about what God SHOULD have created if he was as good as YOU?

So, if your God is really absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign, then He is absolutely responsible for EVERYTHING, both good and bad, that happens in His universe.

Really? So then, in your so-called "mind", when you tell lies about God being an exalted creature living on a planet in outer space or about imaginary Egyptian-writing Jewish American Indians using steel swords, operating a monetary economy and riding around in chariots, somehow GOD is responsible for those lies?

Now, you are a Molin (like you call me a Mormon...get it?). So, following that pillar of your Molinism, I looked at what IS--the world He'd created and all its inhabitants fallen, evil, none of them that do good, none of them righteous, with Satan wreaking misery, death, pain, destruction and sorrow on everyone--and plugged that into the Molinism Computer. Your Molinisitic God must have considered all the possible combinations and permutations of all of His OTHER options or alternatives--decisions He COULD HAVE made but didn't--and ONE of those outcomes was a universe that REMAINED "very good," with NO evil, no Satan in it. He must have decided that the reality that we ARE in was somehow preferable to that one, right? Otherwise, He'd have done things differently with the GOOD universe as a result instead of this EVIL universe.

God created the best possible reality according to his own purpose. Do you pretend to actually be the God your religion tells you that you are such that you are now in a position to correct Him?

So I was just wondering if you had any additional scenarios to add, besides the one that I thought of. Surely you understand Molinism better than I do--after all, it's YOUR religion, not mine--and so you must have more insights than the one I had.

First of all, YOUR religion holds evil as a principle above or before God. I do not share that view. Evil did not exist before the man you call "God" turned into one of the Mormon Gods by eschewing the evil that preceded him and then got his own planet as his reward. Secondly, to answer your question (something you might try actually doing some time), there may indeed be a functionally infinite number of possible universes that God did NOT create. I suggest that since HE is God (and you are not) that he has the necessary and sufficient wisdom to have created the one he wanted for his own purpose. In that universe, God did not create evil as you imagine (or pretend that I have affirmed). God created the possibility of evil. If you cannot understand the difference, I suggest you owe me an explanation of what you even think "evil" actually is.

-BH

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[BrianH]

Yeah, I knew you would refuse to answer it too.

I have no obligation to answer questions based on fallacious premises. Like you, Jeff has tried to pretend that I believe God is the "cause of all the evil in the universe". That is false. I do not owe any answers for beliefs I do not hold.

According to Brian's belief God is not the source of evil in spite of his own religion forcing God, if taken to its logical conclusion, to be the source of evil.

Stem is so ignoran t of biblical Christianity that even though he cannot show any evidence that it claims God is the source of all evil, he thinks that if he just repeats his empty claims enough, somehow they will become true.

Not true, I did not say "biblical Christianity"make God the source of evil...I said the mainstream Christianity would if taken to its logical conclusion make God the source of evil.

Since mainstream Christianity IS biblical Christianity, your evasion here is meaningless. And if you had even the most p***ing familiarity with biblical Christianity (or "mainstream Christiainty" if you prefer that name), you would have known that what you are attributing to it is actually what we call "blasphemy". I challenge you to show me ONE authoritative source from ANY mainstream Christian source that affirms what you are trying to jack-hammer down our throats and then make us answer for. When you fail, as even YOU know you will, it SHOULD begin to become obvious to you that all you are doing here is inventing yet another absurd straw man fallacy and then pretending to have knocked it down. All you are proving is that you have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about mainstream Christianity, Stem.

I get it. You deny that God is the source of evil, in spite of the very conclusion of mainstream Christianity is that God is the source of evil.

That is YOUR conclusion, NOT the conclusion of mainstream Christianity. Your failure to have cited any source from mainstream Christianity that claims what you are trying to force down our throats is proof that you don't know what you are talking about and so, as usual for Mormons, all you can do is invent fantasies and insist that they are true.

If the questions are so hopelessly uninformed, then you ought to straighten them out by answering them directly.

No it is because your questions are so ill-informed that the only way to answer them is to point out the fallacious premises you have merely ***umed. For example, when I ask you again: "When did you stop abusing the children in your neighborhood?" isn't the proper answer to point out that the premise to the question is wrong?

Sadly you can't and didn't refute anything. You have merely ***erted that my explanation is wrong and have run away from the questions initially asked.

Wrong. I have refuted the false premise upon which your entire thread is based. YOU say that biblical Christianity affirms that God is the source of all evil. You are not only WRONG, you have yet to do anything more than just REPEAT that claim when challenged to support it.

Actually I would suggest your refusal to answer questions in regards to your beliefs suggests you wish your beliefs weren't ever questioned.

You have not asked me questions about MY beliefs. You have only asked me questions about YOUR repeated and deliberate misrepresentations of my beliefs.

Answer the questions and prove the premise is wrong, BrianH.

I don't have to answer them to prove their premise wrong. YOU say that Christianity holds that God is the source of evil. You are wrong. That is not what the Bible says, nor is it what any mainstream denomination affirms. Again, your failure to support your premise is proof that you cannot.

I never abused anyone therefore I never stopped that which I never started. See how easy it is to answer questions, BH?

Thank you for proving my point. I have done the same thing with equal ease when I have repeatedly told you that neither I nor any adherent to mainstream, historically orthodox biblical Christianity believes that God is the source of evil. That is the deliberate prevarication that underlies your questions, just as my mock-example of asking you when you stopped molesting children was false.

You didn't say anything about being gullible. You said:

Quote:
Apparently you think that everyone else is just as easy to fool as you are.

You are wrong again. Being "easily fooled" is what "gullible" means, Stem. Did you not know that? I am glad to have taught you a new word.

Never have, BH. See I can answer questions without fear, unlike you.

And in answering you have once again DEMONSTRATED that I have answered YOU when I told you that we do not affirm that God is the source of evil. Or do you somehow fantasize that YOUR unsupported premises deserve a special p***?

-BH

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[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by BrianH

And then you were what ...trying to tell me that you have a better idea about what God SHOULD have created if he was as good as YOU?

--Still slow on the uptake, it seems. No, I wasn't trying to tell you that, as most high-school grads should be able to realize. I was taking your beliefs to their logical conclusion, and exposing your beliefs as being fallacious in the process.

Really? So then, in your so-called "mind"

---Not just so-called: All the evidence supports the fact that it is, in reality, a mind. Perhaps your cult has brainwashed you into believing that some people only have "so-called" minds. This sounds surrealistic. Does your cult teach you that reality is only so-called? That is one sign of cult-think.

when you tell lies about God being an exalted creature

--So your cult has taught you that the idea that God is exalted, is a lie? That is cause for concern. Get out of that cult ASAP, if the Molinists have you believing such things.

living on a planet

---Some of your Carm buddies right here in WM (like Jim Banta) believe that they will be dwelling with God right here on this planet. You believe God is living, right? Do you believe in those NT scriptures that say that the "elect" will end up "reigning" with God on this planet? If yes, then you yourself believe in a God that lives on planets, Brian. Or has your Molinism cult taught you to reject the Bible?

in outer space or about imaginary Egyptian-writing Jewish American Indians using steel swords, operating a monetary economy

---Do you need to see evidence that some precolumbian cultures had a monetary system? Get up to speed, Brian, that evidence has been out for decades. Your old Tanner/Decker/Martin library is obsolete.

God created the best possible reality according to his own purpose.

--Yeah, preaching to the choir there, we all believe that. But your Molinism is BASED on the idea that your God considered ALL OTHER possible decisions He COULD have made, and all other resulting outcomes. Since your God is the Uncaused Cause of EVERYTHING (since there was NOTHING that was made that was not made by Him, you believe), then your God owns all the evil that has ever existed. Since your God is absolutely omniscient, omnipotent, and sovereign (that means He always get His own way), then NO ONE could have PREVENTED your God from making an evil-free universe. NO ONE. Where there is absolute omnipotence and sovereignty and omniscience, there is absolute responsibility.