Let us spotlight and particular teaching

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Well here we have a perfect illustration of your problem. You think you can blame God for things that are not in his will. That is the fundamental problem here, and you have not explained (much less "re-explained") how you can even pretend to blame God for evil just becuase he knew it would happen.

I have already explained it has nothing to do with his will, as you keep trying to force upon this discussion. I never brought His will into the discussion...you did.

"Obfuscation"?? What's the matter Stem, could you not understand the big words. This is simple. There are what we recognize as "necessary truths" and "contingent truths". They are not the same thing. Your hand-waving dismissal does not sustain your accusation here.

Again I didn't bring anything about what are truths and how we can define them here. This is your obfuscation. I get your desperate attempt...no need to repeat it. Perhaps in your mind other readers don't get it.

If that is the best you can do, then you have nothing. The fact is, in the context of knowing our children will do evil things, my ****ogy is sufficient. God knew that we would sin, just like you know that your children will sin. Your children did not exist before you procreated them. Whether they were created out of the myth of "eternal matter" or not is irrelevant to the ****ogy.

There is absolutely no connection here. God conceived of every evil rape, how it would happen and under what circumstances it would come about, for instance. This long before he created any vehicle, out of nothing mind you, to do the evil deed. I have absolutely no idea what my offspring are going to do...I can't even confirm that any are going to sin in any way. I only ***ume they will. And I did not create something that otherwise would not exist. There is such a huge difference here its adorable your desperately trying to cling to this.

Once again, having no actual argument to refute my position, all you can do is demonstrate your difficulty understanding my rather simple and obvious point by calling it an obfuscation. Furthermore, your rhetoric is getting increasingly desperate (as usual). Knowing people would commit evil acts in advance has EVERYTHING to do with knowing that people would commit evil acts. Yes, God went ahead and created - but he did not commit the evil acts. YOU actually commit your own sins, Stem. Just because God knew you would sin does not mean that he created the sin you comm***ed.

You misunderstand my explanation plain and simple. Its obvious. And its obvious you have never really thought very hard about your beliefs. Its not a matter of God knowing sin would occur. You keep hammering that in some desperate attempt to avoid the actual points I've raised. Its not just that He knew sins would occur, but its that he actually conceived of every evil deed before he created anything. The actual deed of rape wasn't thought of in the mind of the first man to rape...it began in the conception of God before that man was. I know you don't get it. I know you will avoid the issue in hopes you won't have to deal with it. But that's how it is. That's what your beliefs suggest, if followed to their logical conclusions.

While your opinion is predictable, you have failed to substantiate it with a valid argument. Whether you created them out of existing matter or not is IRRELEVANT; the FACT is they did not exist such that they COULD sin and then, AFTER you procreated them, they did exist and DID sin, just as you knew they would. Using your mistaken logic in pretending that God must be held accountable for all evil (on the Christian view), YOU are equally responsible for the sins of your children.

My beliefs are much different than yours on this, BH. My offspring already exist, according to my beliefs, before I procreated them. And still beside the point, an obfuscation. I'm sure its just that you don't understand. You can't understand, or you are not wanting to see. Even if a mortal person knows his/her offspring will sin, that hardly means that mortal person, created out of nothing, or that that person was the original one who conceived of all the particular evil deeds we, as the human family, do. Thus, this point, untouched by you due to your inability to understand, is true according to the logical conclusions of mainstream Christianity.

I understood since before you even asked the question, Stem. And YOU are the one who has just demonstrated that YOU do not even understand what you just read: I never said that YOU suggested you are responsible. Learn to read. I am the one telling YOU that according to your damaged logic, if God is responsible for sin because he created the people who commit it knowing in advance that they will sin, then YOU are equally responsible for the sins of your children because you procreated them, knowing in advance that they would sin. You are not above the judgment that you place on God as you misrepresent the Christian view.

I just keep addressing this failed logic you continue to rehe**** as if you are told to just keep repeating this red herring time and time again in hopes it will go away. Sorry, read above. let it sink in, perhaps you will get it.

Meanwhile, that God created ex-nihlo is irrelevant to the issue here. The God of the Bible is transcendent over creation and thus not subject to its confines and limitations. Just because God fore-knew that evil would exist, that does not mean that he performed the evil that has occurred. Your attempt to misrepresent the Christian view and then make me account for your misrepresentation has failed. The Christian view is that YOU were created in the image of God with free will and YOU chose to sin; God did not cause you to sin.

I never said God committed the sins He originally conceived of. His sin, if you remained consistent with your beliefs, is that He conceived of the grotesque and evil deeds long before they ever were committed. Or are you trying to suggest that lusting after a woman is not a sin?

love,
stem

[BrianH]

BH>>Well here we have a perfect illustration of your problem. You think you can blame God for things that are not in his will. That is the fundamental problem here, and you have not explained (much less "re-explained") how you can even pretend to blame God for evil just becuase he knew it would happen.

S>I have already explained it has nothing to do with his will, as you keep trying to force upon this discussion. I never brought His will into the discussion...you did.

Then you are making my point: if the occurrence of evil has "nothing to do with (God's) will" (which is what have been telling you all along) then you cannot say that the logical extension of orthodox theology is to blame God for the occurrence of evil.

The entire rest of your argument hinges totally and completely on this point and you have just conceded my position, Stem.

There is really nothing left to say ...though I am certain that you will say it anyway. But you and I both know the one thing you will NOT do is even try to field a Mormon explanation for the problem you have invented and tried to jack-hammer into my mouth and then ask me to account for it.

-BH

.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Then you are making my point: if the occurrence of evil has "nothing to do with (God's) will" (which is what have been telling you all along) then you cannot say that the logical extension of orthodox theology is to blame God for the occurrence of evil.

The entire rest of your argument hinges totally and completely on this point and you have just conceded my position, Stem.

Not one piece of my argument hinges on this point. Thus, its obvious you don't get it. here I'll explain it again without any mention of God's will.

Before God created anything....

He conceived of every evil deed that would be done. Before any evil deed was done or will be done God conceived of them before any creating, out of nothing, on His part, took place. Cain, for instance, committed a great sin, but that sin was not first conceived in his or the devil's mind. God thought of it long before either of them, right? Thus the sin only came about because God conceived of it, sans His will. Whether He willed sin/evil or not is another question currently being asked in a different thread.

There is really nothing left to say ...though I am certain that you will say it anyway. But you and I both know the one thing you will NOT do is even try to field a Mormon explanation for the problem you have invented and tried to jack-hammer into my mouth and then ask me to account for it.

I already gave a mormon explanation for this problem. I didn't invent this problem, BH, but its been around for many centuries and remains unresolved among mainstream christians.

love,
stem

[John T]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

You previously said, "The fact is that historically orthodox, biblical Christianity IS "non-LDS" "Christianity" by definition and that means it is included in those whom you originally said affirm that God is the source of all evil."

This is certainly no more the case than is the case that Mormons are the primogenitors of syphilis. Essentially, yours is an atheistic position that admits the reality and presence of evil, but simultaneously denies the possibility of an all-powerful, and all-knowing God.

Who is the "whom" you refer to? Those particular people who consider themselves non-LDS Christians of course. Those particular people. I did not suggest any particular people affirmed that God is the source of evil. I suggested that non-LDS Christianity [OXYMORON ALERT] if taken to its logical conclusion forces God to be the source of evil. And it remains obvious you haven't really though this all through, just like many of your co-religionists. I do not suggest you or any of your co-religionists affirm that God is the source of evil, even though JD once admitted God certainly is indirectly.

There is no way that FJD, with his very similar to my theological perspective, could even hint of such a blasphemy against God! Most likely, he stated that God id sovereign over evil, and that his permission of its existence means no more than His purpose in permitting evil has not been completed, or revealed.

Your "****ysis" is skewed because you have based your premises on a faulty proposition, and you do not extrapolate how that "conclusion" could be derived. In short, you have built a house of a foundation of sand.

Sadly my point, untouched by you for some reason we'll have to get to later, is that taking His will out of the equation altogether still, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces upon God to be the source of evil. I'll re-explain since you have failed to address it. God conceived of every evil act that each of his creations would do before He created them out of nothing. Its really that simple. Evil started in God's conception as a result. It did not start in any particular act a man or the devil did...it was before they/we even existed.

Let's p**** this for demonstration of your wrong foundation.

No one can ever take God "out of the picture" of anything. He spoke the world into existence, and it is folly to believe that such a being would "abandon" His creation. This is very similar to the belief of 18th century deism, and is simply the "watch maker theory".

"God conceived of every evil act" is fallacious and is attributing to God the creation of evil. It is also blasphemous. His sovereignty does not extend to every evil act of a creative reprobate, but his sovereignty extends over those acts so that none of those creatively evil acts will ever thwart His plans.

You are ***uming (A) God and (B) ME are similar
Since in your estimation God can create ex nihilo and knows full well each deed each creation will do before creating that that somehow equates to me having offspring when I can't create ex nihilo or know anything my offspring will do.

RED HERRING ALERT

That's total obfuscation again, BH. This has nothing to do with knowing something would fail to be perfect but has everything to do with God conceiving of each and every evil deed that would be practiced before He went ahead and created. You are continually missing the point, most likely because you haven't thought these things through, but possibly because you are trying to obscure things so they don't seem so bad.

Sorry, but Brian is not missing the point, YOU ARE. If you want to attribute to God the creation of evil, then as I stated above, you may as well attribute to LSD people the origins of syphilis. Both positions are equally absurd.

You see the false choice dilemma you create is that either God is sovereign, and can eliminate evil, or else the existence of evil militates against a just, righteous and holy God. it is you who can not grasp that they exist simultaneously, and that ONE reason for the existence of evil and suffering in the world is that so that God can provide a Savior, whereby through absolute reliance on the things that Jesus did, and without anything like "Temple Tickets" AKA "works justification" the one who accepts this unmerited grace, coming without any precondition MAY BE ***URED of entering heaven.

LDS theology is so works oriented that it requires the person to have so many good works to merit a certain level of heaven. That is an***hetical to what Scripture says, hence, you have another faulty presupposition.

BH you are either woefully i-gnorant of LDS teaching or even more woefully i-gnorant of the ramifications of your own beliefs. Either way your desperate flailing here is adorable to watch, if nothing else. My offspring, according to my beliefs, exist whether I procreate or not. That's a huge difference that you just don't seem to get. We are highlighting how your beliefs are problematic and you just don't seem to get it, most likely because you haven't thought about it. I'm trying to help you, but if you obtusely refuse to listen then you'll most likely remain woefully i-gnorant of the ramifications of your beliefs

Your gloating and pomposity are over bearing and completely without merit. What most LDS people fail to understand is free, unmerited grace, and that is the ONLY remedy and explanation for the existence of evil.


Here is a great summary, and explanation of what your beliefs lead to, and what REAL Christians, like FJD, BH and others like me are trying to say to you.

God should destroy all evil. The cl***ic way of stating this objection based on evil is as follows:
(1) If God is all-good. He will destroy evil.
(2) If God is all-powerful. He can destroy evil.
(3) But evil is not destroyed.
(4) Therefore, there is no all-good, all-powerful God.

But, as was stated in chapter 19 (p. 292), there is an implied time limit on God in premise 3. And second, it is possible that there is no way to destroy evil without also destroying the good of permitting free creatures. Indeed, the argument may be restated to prove just the opposite of what the atheists intend. For if there is an all-powerful God, then we have the ***urance that evil will be defeated without destroying freedom.

It may be argued this way:
(1) If God is all-good. He will defeat evil.
(2) If He is all-powerful. He can defeat evil.
(3) Evil is not yet defeated.
(4) Therefore evil will one day be defeated.

In short, grant that the theistic God exists and there is automatically a solution to the problem of evil. Thus if the grounds for believing God exists are good (see chap. 19), then evil is explained.

Geisler, N. L., Feinberg, P. D., & Feinberg, P. D. (1980). Introduction to philosophy : A Christian perspective (323). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Book House.

I sincerely hope that this helps your understanding of things in the REAL Christian faith.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by John T

This is certainly no more the case than is the case that Mormons are the primogenitors of syphilis. Essentially, yours is an atheistic position that admits the reality and presence of evil, but simultaneously denies the possibility of an all-powerful, and all-knowing God.

Not true. I am not an atheist. thus, you have directly contradicted my position, when attempting to define my position--its a straw man.

There is no way that FJD, with his very similar to my theological perspective, could even hint of such a blasphemy against God! Most likely, he stated that God id sovereign over evil, and that his permission of its existence means no more than His purpose in permitting evil has not been completed, or revealed.

Take it up with him.

Y

our "****ysis" is skewed because you have based your premises on a faulty proposition, and you do not extrapolate how that "conclusion" could be derived. In short, you have built a house of a foundation of sand.

Interesting set of ***ertions, wrong, but most importantly bald.

Let's p**** this for demonstration of your wrong foundation.

No one can ever take God "out of the picture" of anything. He spoke the world into existence, and it is folly to believe that such a being would "abandon" His creation. This is very similar to the belief of 18th century deism, and is simply the "watch maker theory".

"God conceived of every evil act" is fallacious and is attributing to God the creation of evil.

Great. So to you, John, in spite of the mainstream Christian perspective, God could not have conceived of every single act each person would do before He created them? Your argument is now not only with Father JD, but also BrianH. A sticky position to be in. Truly Father JD is much closer to the mainstream concept than BrianH is, and you are even further from the mainstream Christian perspective than BrianH.

It is also blasphemous. His sovereignty does not extend to every evil act of a creative reprobate, but his sovereignty extends over those acts so that none of those creatively evil acts will ever thwart His plans.

That doesn't make sense. Care to clarify?

RED HERRING ALERT

uh do you know what a red herring is?

Sorry, but Brian is not missing the point, YOU ARE.

I'm missing my own point? Whatever.

If you want to attribute to God the creation of evil, then as I stated above, you may as well attribute to LSD people the origins of syphilis. Both positions are equally absurd.

LSD people? On what basis do you claim that LSD people originated syphilis? Please explain yourself. So far you haven't explained anything.

You see the false choice dilemma you create is that either God is sovereign, and can eliminate evil, or else the existence of evil militates against a just, righteous and holy God. it is you who can not grasp that they exist simultaneously, and that ONE reason for the existence of evil and suffering in the world is that so that God can provide a Savior, whereby through absolute reliance on the things that Jesus did, and without anything like "Temple Tickets" AKA "works justification" the one who accepts this unmerited grace, coming without any precondition MAY BE ***URED of entering heaven.

you're further off the point than BrianH. I admire your efforts to defend BH and FJD, but your comments prove you need to re-read my comments. You have misunderstood.

LDS theology is so works oriented that it requires the person to have so many good works to merit a certain level of heaven. That is an***hetical to what Scripture says, hence, you have another faulty presupposition.

You should have posted the RED HERRING ALERT here, since you are the one guilty of such.

Your gloating and pomposity are over bearing and completely without merit.

You don't like that? Great...I'm mirroring, BrianH. He's taught me well.

What most LDS people fail to understand is free, unmerited grace, and that is the ONLY remedy and explanation for the existence of evil.

Okay, how does the concept of free, unmerited grace save you from the explanations I've offered?

Here is a great summary, and explanation of what your beliefs lead to, and what REAL Christians, like FJD, BH and others like me are trying to say to you.

God should destroy all evil. The cl***ic way of stating this objection based on evil is as follows:
(1) If God is all-good. He will destroy evil.
(2) If God is all-powerful. He can destroy evil.
(3) But evil is not destroyed.
(4) Therefore, there is no all-good, all-powerful God.

This is a straw-man. I'm afraid you don't know my position, so your attempt to attack it is rather pointless.

But, as was stated in chapter 19 (p. 292), there is an implied time limit on God in premise 3. And second, it is possible that there is no way to destroy evil without also destroying the good of permitting free creatures. Indeed, the argument may be restated to prove just the opposite of what the atheists intend. For if there is an all-powerful God, then we have the ***urance that evil will be defeated without destroying freedom.

It may be argued this way:
(1) If God is all-good. He will defeat evil.
(2) If He is all-powerful. He can defeat evil.
(3) Evil is not yet defeated.
(4) Therefore evil will one day be defeated.

In short, grant that the theistic God exists and there is automatically a solution to the problem of evil. Thus if the grounds for believing God exists are good (see chap. 19), then evil is explained.

Geisler, N. L., Feinberg, P. D., & Feinberg, P. D. (1980). Introduction to philosophy : A Christian perspective (323). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Book House.

I sincerely hope that this helps your understanding of things in the REAL Christian faith.

uh...you did not address my position in the least, and you failed to address my arguments. Oh well.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

As you try to blame me for thinking that God is responsible for all evil, you have yet to address the simple, self-evident fact that if God did not will the evil, then he is not responsible for it. Knowing about evil and causing it are two very different things. You knew your children would sin before they ever even existed. Using YOUR damaged logic, we must conclude that YOU are responsible for THEIR sins.

I already gave a mormon explanation for this problem.

Where?

I didn't invent this problem, BH, but its been around for many centuries and remains unresolved among mainstream christians.

You DID invent it. You are pretending that there is no other conclusion other than to attribute all evil to God on the view of Biblical Christianity. That is false. Just because God KNEW that evil would occur, does not mean that he is the source of evil. Nevertheless, you overlook that fact and have invented a fantasy where he IS responsible and tried to jam your fantasy down my throat. Its YOUR problem, Stem - not mine.

-BH

.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I would suggest if taken to its logical conclusion orthodox Christianity requires that God is the source of evil.

I think it might help you if you showed how "logic" would necessarily lead to that conclusion.

I don't think it does, stem, and I can back up what I am saying with logic.

Then, Brian, logically there is no other conclusion to make.

Yes there is, and even BrianH can see that, stem.

God conceived of every single evil deed before He ever created a thing.

Right.

Every inhumane rape, or murder only came about because God first conceived of them.

Wrong. Bad logic. Very very very very very bad logic.

If He did not conceive of them, then they never would have been.

The fact the he knew his children would sin is not what made them sin, stem.

Try putting that thought into your equation, stem.

Even corrupt and apostate Christians know how to do that, on this issue.

Thus, the origin of every evil action has its place in God's conception.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Try giving corrupt and apostate Chrisitans a little more credit than you are giving to them, stem.

They're basically like us even though they have made some opposite choices.

They think what is really false is true, to some extent.

They think what is really evil is good, to some extent.

People who do what is evil often think that what they are doing is good.

People make their own choices, stem.

Joseph Smith wasn't the first one who came up with the concept of "agency".

Such is the logical conclusion of your belief system. You can deny it...you can run from its ramifications. You can easily in brazen hubris decide you are above logic and reason and thus conclude, even in spite of this, that God is not the source of it all. You can. You can display cognitive dissonance and fool yourself to your hearts delight. People do that kind of stuff. But doing so does not resolve the issues your religion has at all. Its far too problematic to take seriously.

I suggest that you take the problem a little more seriously, stem.

If it wasn't for God helping us to know what is good, we would likely be doing evil while thinking that evil is good.... and it would not be God's fault.

God gave us the power to choose between good and evil, and when we don't choose to do good, what we are doing is evil.

Logic is good, stem, but use it correctly.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by BrianH

As you try to blame me for thinking that God is responsible for all evil, you have yet to address the simple, self-evident fact that if God did not will the evil, then he is not responsible for it.

I didn't blame you for anything, certainly not for thinking that GOd is responsible for evil. My argument has nothing to do with the will of God. It was a nice attempt at a sleight of hand trick on your part, but His will has nothing to do with my explanation, that you keep running away from. I know you don't get it, but running from it just seems silly.

Knowing about evil and causing it are two very different things.

Sure they are but that does not address my argument. You are lost.

You knew your children would sin before they ever even existed. Using YOUR damaged logic, we must conclude that YOU are responsible for THEIR sins.

Brian, this is silly. My logic did not suggest one thing about procreating children. I already told you I don't "know" my children will sin, I can only ***ume. While they most likely will I still do not know, nor did I initially conceive of each of their sins.

Where?

A few posts up. Just re-read my posts and you'll find it.

You DID invent it. You are pretending that there is no other conclusion other than to attribute all evil to God on the view of Biblical Christianity. That is false. Just because God KNEW that evil would occur, does not mean that he is the source of evil. Nevertheless, you overlook that fact and have invented a fantasy where he IS responsible and tried to jam your fantasy down my throat. Its YOUR problem, Stem - not mine.

You are not even addressing my argument, but instead just throwing out ***ertions that do not pertain. Its silliness, BH...Its adorable and it surely displays your unwillingness or inability to think through your beliefs. My concern is what would cause you to be so lost and unable to think for yourself. I can't answer that just yet, but we may end up there.

Let's review some of the questions for which you answered "right" to:

Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?

God was all there was before creating.
He knew before creating that evil would be done.
God chose to create being who would do evil, even though He didn't have to create beings who would do evil.
God knew each evil act before creating.

This means God created all creatures absolutely, out of nothing. God also knew every single evil deed that would be done, and he knew how each deed would be done. Thus before creating He conceived of the evil deeds long before they were done. The deeds themselves, this means, would not be done unless He thought of them. In other words, no evil deeds would have happened if He did not conceive of them, long before they were done. With will not in the picture, (who knows what he wanted?) its obvious the only conclusion possible is that evil began, in the conscious of God, and it would not have come about if He did not conceive of it. This is what you have avoided responding to.

love,
stem

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Sorry, Batman, I choose not to spend my time explaining to you how their theology is bad, after I already offered the explanation. You should check out the book I referenced for you since the paper didn't help.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Sorry, Batman, I choose not to spend my time explaining to you how their theology is bad, after I already offered the explanation. You should check out the book I referenced for you since the paper didn't help.

love,
stem

Let's set the record straight, shall we.

The idea that God (our Father in heaven) did not create evil or will that people commit evil is a good idea, and anyone who has that idea should hang onto it regardless of any additional truth they may be taught in the future.

If YOU want to keep telling them THEY BELIEVE God created evil or that it has ever been God's will that other people do or think something evil, you may continue to try to give them that idea for as long as you want to try to do that, regardless of how false and wrong and evil that idea really is.

[stemelbow]

Batman, its already on record, and has been for centuries, that their theology, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces upon God the genesis of evil. Sadly they do not have an answer and sadly, their theology is such that God comes out bad. God is great and good in every conceivable way. Thus, that their theology forces upon God the conception of all that is evil before He created absolutely and out of nothing is sheer blasphemy. I don't like the idea of running from the truth in hopes not to hurt someone's feelings because their beliefs are wrong. God can take it, I'm sure, but I can't.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Batman, its already on record, and has been for centuries, that their theology, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces upon God the genesis of evil.

I know people have said that before, but it never has been true.

Their theology does not lead them to believe God is the author of evil.

Would it help if I said that again, in English ?

Mainstream Christian theology does not lead mainstream Christians to believe God is the author of evil.

I know people have said it does, before, but it never has been true.

Sadly they do not have an answer and sadly, their theology is such that God comes out bad.

No, not really.

Their theology leads them to believe God is NOT the author of evil, or of sin.

YOU AND OTHERS KEEP TRYING TO TELL THEM THEY BELIEVE GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF SIN, BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THEY REALLY BELIEVE.

God is great and good in every conceivable way. Thus, that their theology forces upon God the conception of all that is evil before He created absolutely and out of nothing is sheer blasphemy. I don't like the idea of running from the truth in hopes not to hurt someone's feelings because their beliefs are wrong. God can take it, I'm sure, but I can't.

love,
stem

Let me try this approach, stem.

Try looking at it this way.

Mainstream Christians believe that at one point in time, in eternity, God was the only being in all of existence and God consisted of more than one person... namely, our Father in heaven, and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

THAT is what they really believe, and if you don't believe me, just ask them.

Going further:

At some point in time, in eternity, God then decided to created other things, including people like us, and when God created all of us we were all good.

Got that much ?

None of us were evil when God originally created us, because we were good, just as everything else God created was good.

Are you following me, stem ?

Going further:

God then gave all of us the power to choose between good and evil, which meant that although we were good when God created us, God had given us the potential to become evil if we wanted to become evil, and God considered that to be good, too, because God knew it would be good to give us the power to choose between good and evil instead of just making us like some kind of robots who did only what God wanted us to do, with no other choice.

Now go ask a mainstream Christian if they believe all of that, stem, and then ask them if they believe that means God created evil or willed that other people choose to do what is evil.

I already have, and I still continue to do so, and to date I know of no mainstream Christian who believes God created evil, itself, or that it has ever been God's will for us to do what is evil.

[stemelbow]

YOu haven't paid attention to my argument, Batman. I hear your points and you left out the pertinent information in regards to their beliefs, and how if taken to its logical conclusion, there is no way out of the problem. If you care to address my actual argument and prove me wrong, then go ahead. So far you haven't shown much other than most mainstreamers in your estimation haven't thought a lot about their beliefs.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

YOu haven't paid attention to my argument, Batman.

Why is it that you're starting to sound like BrianH and Father_JD, stem ?

I have paid attention to your argument, and I just don't agree with you.

I hear your points and you left out the pertinent information in regards to their beliefs, and how if taken to its logical conclusion, there is no way out of the problem.

There is a way out of the problem, though.

... and they don't even have that problem to begin with !!!

They do NOT believe God is the author of sin, and NONE of their beliefs lead them to believe he is.

If you care to address my actual argument and prove me wrong, then go ahead.

I already have, several times.

So far you haven't shown much other than most mainstreamers in your estimation haven't thought a lot about their beliefs.

Did you actually read what I said about what mainstream Christians believe ?

Would you now like to go ask them if that is what they really believe ?

You keep saying their beliefs lead them to believe something they don't believe, stem.

Why do you keep doing that ?

Why do you keep saying their beliefs lead them to believe something they still don't really believe ?

[stemelbow]

Funny, I thought you sounded just like BH--not directly responding to my arguments but responding with your ***ertions which in no way address or prove my argument wrong.

I will let my arguments stand on their own merit. If you disagree then I'll wait till you actually address them. If you think you did address them then I'm willing to listen to any explanation you care to offer.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

If you think you did address them then I'm willing to listen to any explanation you care to offer.

love,
stem

Read carefully, stem, and then tell me if you think my logic doesn't hold up:

Mainstream Christians believe that at one point in time, in eternity, God was the only being in all of existence and God consisted of more than one person... namely, our Father in heaven, and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

THAT is what they really believe, and if you don't believe me, just ask them.

Going further:

At some point in time, in eternity, God then decided to created other things, including people like us, and when God created all of us we were all good.

Got that much ?

None of us were evil when God originally created us, because we were good, just as everything else God created was good.

Are you following me, stem ?

Going further:

God then gave all of us the power to choose between good and evil, which meant that although we were good when God created us, God had given us the potential to become evil if we wanted to become evil, and God considered that to be good, too, because God knew it would be good to give us the power to choose between good and evil instead of just making us like some kind of robots who did only what God wanted us to do, with no other choice.

Now go ask a mainstream Christian if they believe all of that, stem, and then ask them if they believe that means God created evil or willed that other people choose to do what is evil.

I already have, and I still continue to do so, and to date I know of no mainstream Christian who believes God created evil, itself, or that it has ever been God's will for us to do what is evil.

Okay now ?

If not, stem, go ahead and say something like this:

You forgot to mention this: (and then tell me what I didn't mention).

If you understand what you're talking about you should be able to explain it.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Read carefully, stem, and then tell me if you think my logic doesn't hold up:

Mainstream Christians believe that at one point in time, in eternity, God was the only being in all of existence and God consisted of more than one person... namely, our Father in heaven, and Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

THAT is what they really believe, and if you don't believe me, just ask them.

Going further:

At some point in time, in eternity, God then decided to created other things, including people like us, and when God created all of us we were all good.

Including Lucifer? I mean I get that we believe God's creations were all good, but according to the mainstream concept at what point was Lucifer good?

Be that as it may, you forgot to mention the whole argument I made. Before creating out of nothing only God existed, right?

Also before creating He knew, or conceived of, every evil deed that would be accomplished, right?

According to the mainstream concept, every deed any man does, whether good or evil, was conceived of/thought of by God long before He created us out of nothing, right?

That must mean that unless God thought of the evil deeds that would be done, there would not be any evil deeds at all, right?

The evil deed accomplished by Cain to kill his brother wasn't first thought of by the devil or by Cain, it was thought of long before that. God thought of it before He created them, right?

The evil deed Cain did only happened because God first thought of it, right?

Thus, it must be concluded, that every evil deed was not first conceived of by any person, but by God, right?

If so, evil itself has its roots in God's conscious, right?

Got that much ?

None of us were evil when God originally created us, because we were good, just as everything else God created was good.

Are you following me, stem ?

Going further:

God then gave all of us the power to choose between good and evil, which meant that although we were good when God created us, God had given us the potential to become evil if we wanted to become evil, and God considered that to be good, too, because God knew it would be good to give us the power to choose between good and evil instead of just making us like some kind of robots who did only what God wanted us to do, with no other choice.

Now go ask a mainstream Christian if they believe all of that, stem, and then ask them if they believe that means God created evil or willed that other people choose to do what is evil.

I already have, and I still continue to do so, and to date I know of no mainstream Christian who believes God created evil, itself, or that it has ever been God's will for us to do what is evil.

Okay now ?

If not, stem, go ahead and say something like this:

You forgot to mention this: (and then tell me what I didn't mention).

If you understand what you're talking about you should be able to explain it.

Batman, I appreciate your interest in this topic. Hopefully this will help you, appreciate your own beliefs that much more. It does for me.

love,
stem

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Let's set the record straight, shall we.

The idea that God (our Father in heaven) did not create evil or will that people commit evil is a good idea, and anyone who has that idea should hang onto it regardless of any additional truth they may be taught in the future.

If YOU want to keep telling them THEY BELIEVE God created evil or that it has ever been God's will that other people do or think something evil, you may continue to try to give them that idea for as long as you want to try to do that, regardless of how false and wrong and evil that idea really is.

Amen God never was party to man committing sin and never force Him to do so.. In mormonism this is NOT true God force Adam to sin so that Go's plan could go forward.. One way of the other Adam had to sin.. No Children=SIN, Taking the fruit=SIN.. mormonism teaches that Adam had to take the fruit to have Children so God forced Adam to sin.. IHS jim

Oh in case you believe Adam "only transgressed" and that really wasn't sin, look again to the Bible.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Transgression is SIN, Sin is transgression.. IHS jim

[stemelbow]

Please take your discussion of whether God forced man to sin to another thread. This thread is about how mainstream Christianity, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces God to be the source of evil.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Including Lucifer? I mean I get that we believe God's creations were all good, but according to the mainstream concept at what point was Lucifer good?

Yes, most mainstream Christians who know the origin of Lucifer (aka Satan) know that he was good when he was originally created, because they know God doesn't create anything which is evil.

Be that as it may, you forgot to mention the whole argument I made.

I didn't forget. I covered your argument in my own argument.

Before creating out of nothing only God existed, right?

According to them, that is right.

Also before creating He knew, or conceived of, every evil deed that would be accomplished, right?

Yes, according to them AND us (LDS), that is right.

According to the mainstream concept, every deed any man does, whether good or evil, was conceived of/thought of by God long before He created us out of nothing, right?

Yes, according to them AND us (LDS), that is right.

That must mean that unless God thought of the evil deeds that would be done, there would not be any evil deeds at all, right?

Yes, because God thought of everything anyone would ever do, but that doesn't mean God was the cause or author of evil.

Evil is what happens when people don't do God's will, and God created all of us with the power to choose to do his will OR NOT.

Do you get that, stem ?

It's either God's way or some other way, and we get to choose the way.

The evil deed accomplished by Cain to kill his brother wasn't first thought of by the devil or by Cain, it was thought of long before that. God thought of it before He created them, right?

Right.

The evil deed Cain did only happened because God first thought of it, right?

NO !!!

It didn't happen because God first thought of it.

The fact that God thought of it isn't what made it happen.

God simply knew what was going to happen before it happened, because God knew and still knows everything, including what Cain would do with the power God had given him to choose what he would do.

Let's see how well you understand what I am now telling you, stem.

I think you should now be able to see a flaw in your own reasoning.

[John T]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Funny, I thought you sounded just like BH--not directly responding to my arguments but responding with your ***ertions which in no way address or prove my argument wrong.

I will let my arguments stand on their own merit. If you disagree then I'll wait till you actually address them. If you think you did address them then I'm willing to listen to any explanation you care to offer.

love, tem

Actually, your so-called arguments have ZERO merit because you fail to deal with the substance of my points. I clearly stated that yours is the atheistic position. Never did I say you were an atheist. You need to explain how your position is not "atheist theology" yes, an oxymoron, but the point gets across nevertheless when you admit that there is evil, but deny that God has sovereignty over it.

As to the LDS people being the progenitors of syphilis, I figured the absurdity of that simile would demonstrate the absurdity of your statement.

Therefore I urge to get down from your exalted high chair and deal with issues. I demonstrated the faults in your argument, deal with them, nothing else.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Yes, most mainstream Christians, who know the origin of Lucifer (aka Satan) know that he was good when he was originally created, because they know God doesn't create anything which is evil.


I didn't forget. I covered your argument in my own argument.


According to them, that is right.


Yes, according to them AND us (LDS), that is right.

ahhh...your exiting the context of my comments. In context that would be when God was all there was, He created out of nothing, He was the first to conceive of evil deeds, right? That is not the same for LDS, sorry. Please understand there is a context to all of this. Let's not twist the meaning to fit our agendas.

Yes, according to them AND us (LDS), that is right.

Again let's keep it in context so you don't confuse yourself and others.

Yes, because God thought of everything anyone would ever do, but that doesn't mean God was the cause or author of evil.

Evil is what happens when people don't do God's will, and God created all of us with the power to choose to do his will OR NOT.

Do you get that, stem ?

It's either God's way or some other way, and we get to choose the way.

Sadly you just contradicted the answer to this question with the one below, for some unknown reason. If God was the only one in existence, according to "them" not us, and the evil deeds all originated in His mind, to "them" not us, then the logical and only conclusion is the origin of evil is in God's mind, because of "their" belief not ours.

NO !!!

It didn't happen because God first thought of it.

It makes no sense that you answered the above question in the affirmative and this one in the negative. They are the same question. The deeds, a logical conclusion of their theology not ours, of every creature originated in the consciousness of God. God thought of them long before they occurred. Cain's evil deed would not, again a logical conclusion of their theology not ours, have happened unless God, way back when He was all their was and conceived of creating everything out of nothing, thought of Cain killing his brother.

You are so confused because you keep mixing up our theology with theirs.

The fact that God thought of it isn't what made it happen.

Again you've mixed up our theology with theirs.

God simply knew what was going to happen before it happened, because God knew and still knows everything, including what Cain would do with the power God had given him to choose what he would do.

Let's see how well you understand what I am now telling you, stem.

I think you should now be able to see a flaw in your own reasoning.

Nope. You weren't able to prove me wrong. You only confused your beliefs with theirs in your answers and contradicted yourself in the process. I don't say that to be mean or arrogant. I just need to be clear so we can arrive at the truth.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by John T

Actually, your so-called arguments have ZERO merit because you fail to deal with the substance of my points. I clearly stated that yours is the atheistic position. Never did I say you were an atheist. You need to explain how your position is not "atheist theology" yes, an oxymoron, but the point gets across nevertheless when you admit that there is evil, but deny that God has sovereignty over it.

My position is not an atheistic position. It is a position critical of your theology. I don't know why you need me to prove a negative, which is illogical. If you want to prove your point, such is your burden...not mine.

As to the LDS people being the progenitors of syphilis, I figured the absurdity of that simile would demonstrate the absurdity of your statement.

Therefore I urge to get down from your exalted high chair and deal with issues. I demonstrated the faults in your argument, deal with them, nothing else.

You didn't demonstrate the faults in my arguments at all. In fact you didn't really address the main points of my argument at all. You should start by answering the OP...we can go from there.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

I didn't blame you for anything, certainly not for thinking that GOd is responsible for evil. My argument has nothing to do with the will of God. It was a nice attempt at a sleight of hand trick on your part, but His will has nothing to do with my explanation, that you keep running away from. I know you don't get it, but running from it just seems silly.

Just another falsehood. You said that I (a "Non-LDS Christian" - which is an oxymoron) believe that God is the source of all evil. That is false and your denying that you said it is also false. As for your attempt to wiggle out of your own position, if you agree with me that evil is NOT the result of God's will, then by definition, you cannot claim that I must conclude that God is responsible for evil.

Sure they are but that does not address my argument. You are lost.

If you no longer think that biblical Christianity must conclude that God is responsible for evil then you have conceded my point and YOU are lost if you continue this charade.

Brian, this is silly. My logic did not suggest one thing about procreating children. I already told you I don't "know" my children will sin, I can only ***ume. While they most likely will I still do not know, nor did I initially conceive of each of their sins.

As usual the point has totally gone over your head. I never said that your logic said anything about procreating children. It is an ****OGY (go look up the word if you don't recognize it). Your attacking the ****ogy as if it were a literal, is only further proof that you are not even paying attention. And if you did not know, before they were born that your children would sin you are a very naive and even mindless person.

A few posts up. Just re-read my posts and you'll find it.

In other words you are again NOT telling the truth. That's what I thought. Typical Mormon. I can only wonder if you Mormon guys ever get tired of trying to deceive people.

You are not even addressing my argument, but instead just throwing out ***ertions that do not pertain. Its silliness, BH...Its adorable and it surely displays your unwillingness or inability to think through your beliefs. My concern is what would cause you to be so lost and unable to think for yourself. I can't answer that just yet, but we may end up there.

I have trashed your so-called "argument". You even had to go back and deceptively edit out your original statement to hide the absurdity of your "argument". Your deceptions are bluntly obvious, Mormon - as usual. Somehow you think no one can see how you have been caught in your deceptive efforts. But its no surprise. Your whole religion worships lies and lying.

Let's review some of the questions for which you answered "right" to:

Quote:
Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?
God was all there was before creating.
He knew before creating that evil would be done.
God chose to create being who would do evil, even though He didn't have to create beings who would do evil.
God knew each evil act before creating.

This means God created all creatures absolutely, out of nothing. God also knew every single evil deed that would be done, and he knew how each deed would be done. Thus before creating He conceived of the evil deeds long before they were done. The deeds themselves, this means, would not be done unless He thought of them. In other words, no evil deeds would have happened if He did not conceive of them, long before they were done. With will not in the picture, (who knows what he wanted?) its obvious the only conclusion possible is that evil began, in the conscious of God, and it would not have

come about if He did not conceive of it. This is what you have avoided responding to.

Not only have I NOT avoided ANYTHING, I have directly refuted your amateur ramblings; and refuting your weak fallacies was INCREDIBLY easy. Here it is again: Just because God KNEW that there would be evil in the universe, does not mean that he is responsible for that evil, any more than YOU would be rightly held responsible for the evil of your own children even though you knew that your children would sin.

Your attempt to force YOUR damaged logic down MY throat is a failure, Stem. Give it up. You are a total dilettante and you lack the education and intellectual acumen to even try to foist this off.

And when you can answer your own questions, you will have BEGUN the process of rationalizing the speculations of your own religion. Until then your failure to pin your straw man on Christians remains self-evident.

-BH

.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

ahhh...your exiting the context of my comments. In context that would be when God was all there was, He created out of nothing, He was the first to conceive of evil deeds, right?

First to conceive of their evil deeds, right... according to their theology.

Their beliefs don't affirm he was the one who did those evil deeds, though.

God knew what another person was going to do even before he created that other person, but he wasn't the one who made that evil choice.

... and all of this is according to THEIR OWN theology, which is in agreement with ours on this issue.

That is not the same for LDS, sorry. Please understand there is a context to all of this. Let's not twist the meaning to fit our agendas.

I think you're so accustomed to seeing them wrong on so many other issues that you can't see that they are actually right on this issue, stem.

On this issue, they are actually in agreement with us, even though they believe there was nothing else before God while we (LDS) don't believe that.

Again let's keep it in context so you don't confuse yourself and others.

I am, and I'm basing what I'm saying on what I knew as a mainstream Christian.

Sadly you just contradicted the answer to this question with the one below, for some unknown reason.

No I didn't, stem. You think I contradicted myself, but I didn't.

If God was the only one in existence, according to "them" not us...

So far so good, according to them.

... and the evil deeds all originated in His mind, to "them" not us,

Evil deeds didn't originate in God's mind, according to them, stem.

According to them, God knew about all the evil deeds we would ever do once we were created, before he created us, but those deeds didn't originate in him or in his mind. He simply knew what we would do.

... then the logical and only conclusion is the origin of evil is in God's mind, because of "their" belief not ours.

Do you see where you went off track, stem ?

Do you know the difference between a thought that crosses your mind and a deed that someone else may commit ?

Do you accuse yourself of committing a sin simply because you have thought about something which is evil, or which would be evil, if someone else ever did what you thought about ?

It makes no sense that you answered the above question in the affirmative and this one in the negative. They are the same question.

No they aren't.

One question asked what God knew, and the other asked what God caused.

The fact that God thought of everything anyone would ever do doesn't mean God was the cause or author of evil.

The deeds, a logical conclusion of their theology not ours, of every creature originated in the consciousness of God.

That's not what they believe, stem.

They don't believe the deeds of every creature originated in the mind of God.

God does rightfully deserve the credit for all of the good deeds, but when people do NOT do the will of God and actually commit evil that isn't God's fault... according to both mainstream Christian theology AND ours (LDS).

God thought of them long before they occurred.

Right.

Cain's evil deed would not, again a logical conclusion of their theology not ours, have happened unless God, way back when He was all their was and conceived of creating everything out of nothing, thought of Cain killing his brother.

God never thought of killing Abel. God simply knew that Cain would.

... and, again, all of this is according to THEIR theology as well as ours.

You are so confused because you keep mixing up our theology with theirs.

I'm not confused. I simply know that we're agreement on this issue.

Again you've mixed up our theology with theirs.

... and you're determined to think they do not agree with us, aren't ya.

... which is sad, really, considering the fact that they do, on this issue.

Nope. You weren't able to prove me wrong. You only confused your beliefs with theirs in your answers and contradicted yourself in the process. I don't say that to be mean or arrogant. I just need to be clear so we can arrive at the truth.

love,
stem

The truth is that we are in agreement on this issue, and again I'm speaking from past experience of what I once knew as a mainstream Christian.

Try giving them a little credit once in a while, would ya ?