Let us spotlight and particular teaching

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Please take your discussion of whether God forced man to sin to another thread. This thread is about how mainstream Christianity, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces God to be the source of evil.

love,
stem

A mormon/atheist would say so because they seem to believe knowing that evil will happen makes a person responsible for those actions.. I don't happen to agree with that.. In fact if you had power to stop the evil in men's hearts from manifesting it's self you would be just as evil stopping the free exercise of their will as the person is you would stop from the fulfillment of his evil works..

Are you willing to cast a person into prison for the sin of murder you know they will commit before they commit the crime? I know that if a person does not repent and turn to God they will end up being cast into the Lake of Fire... Am I guilty of their crime of denying God? NO!!! IHS jim

[BrianH]

So are you suggesting that God could not have created "this universe because of His love for His creatures, His own glorification and even things that are unknowable to finite minds" without the possibility of evil? If that is what you are suggesting, then does that not limit God?

I am saying that of all possible universes, God chose to create THIS universe according to his own purpose.

Feel free to correct Him, though. I am sure that God will take your admonition to heart. After all, your religion tells you that you are one of the Gods too, right?

-BH

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[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by BrianH

Just another falsehood. You said that I (a "Non-LDS Christian" - which is an oxymoron) believe that God is the source of all evil.

You aren't paying attention. I have conceded that in spite of the logical conclusions of your religion you do not believe that God is the source of all evil. I have repeatedly stated that you obviously haven't thought these things through; thus, you in direct contradiction to the logical conclusion of your beliefs reject the notion that GOd is the source of all evil.

That is false and your denying that you said it is also false. As for your attempt to wiggle out of your own position, if you agree with me that evil is NOT the result of God's will, then by definition, you cannot claim that I must conclude that God is responsible for evil.

You don't have to conclude anything for one. But my explanation has been clear, it is the principles and beliefs of the mainstream Christian religion when taken to their logical conclusions that puts God as the source of evil. You, BrianH, just haven't thought much about your religious beliefs, obviously.

As usual the point has totally gone over your head. I never said that your logic said anything about procreating children. It is an ****OGY (go look up the word if you don't recognize it). Your attacking the ****ogy as if it were a literal, is only further proof that you are not even paying attention. And if you did not know, before they were born that your children would sin you are a very naive and even mindless person.

I clearly explained why your ****ogy has failed. It is you who decided not to respond to my argument.

I have trashed your so-called "argument". You even had to go back and deceptively edit out your original statement to hide the absurdity of your "argument". Your deceptions are bluntly obvious, Mormon - as usual. Somehow you think no one can see how you have been caught in your deceptive efforts. But its no surprise. Your whole religion worships lies and lying.

You haven't even touched on the thrust of my argument sadly.

come about if He did not conceive of it. This is what you have avoided responding to.

Not only have I NOT avoided ANYTHING, I have directly refuted your amateur ramblings; and refuting your weak fallacies was INCREDIBLY easy. Here it is again: Just because God KNEW that there would be evil in the universe, does not mean that he is responsible for that evil, any more than YOU would be rightly held responsible for the evil of your own children even though you knew that your children would sin.

Your attempt to force YOUR damaged logic down MY throat is a failure, Stem. Give it up. You are a total dilettante and you lack the education and intellectual acumen to even try to foist this off.

And when you can answer your own questions, you will have BEGUN the process of rationalizing the speculations of your own religion. Until then your failure to pin your straw man on Christians remains self-evident.
.

There ya go again avoiding the thrust of my argument while pretending that your false ****ogy, which has already been explained to you, does not work. You never even addressed my comments about how your weak ****ogy doesn't work. You just repeated the ****ogy as though it works. The ****ogy itself proves you have neglected responding to the thrust of my argument. I don't mind. I find it all very adorable and typical BH. No big deal...

Anyway, here it is again (you know the argument you keep avoiding) in question format. Let's see if you can answer a simple question or two.

Every evil deed ever committed originated in the mind/consciousness of God, according to the logical conclusions of the mainstream Christian explanation, as you previously conceded when answering the initial questions.

You also had to admit the answer to another question was "right" which further implicates your beliefs, explained here: Not only did every evil deed originate in His mind/consciousness but if He did not think of those evil deeds, they never would have occurred.

Thus, the very seed, the very beginning of each and every evil act, did not originate in the mind of a man or the devil. Without God thinking them before creating out of nothing none of the evil deeds would have occurred, right?

If you are able to answer this question, accompanied with the previous ones you already conceded I got right, then perhaps you will begin to see the problem and be able to address my argument directly, instead of throwing out weak ****ogies that do not apply.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Evil deeds didn't originate in God's mind, according to them, stem.

That had to have. Besides, BH, has already conceded this point and you did too. You just said, "First to conceive of their evil deeds, right... according to their theology". Now you saythe very opposite. And you don't think you are contradicting yourself?

According to them, God knew about all the evil deeds we would ever do once we were created, before he created us, but those deeds didn't originate in him or in his mind. He simply knew what we would do.

According to them the evil deeds were initially thought of by God, but they didn't originate in his mind? Is that your argument?

Do you know the difference between a thought that crosses your mind and a deed that someone else may commit ?

That's not my argument, Batman.

Do you accuse yourself of committing a sin simply because you have thought about something which is evil, or which would be evil, if someone else ever did what you thought about ?

We will be judged by our thoughts and actions, Batman. Thoughts are part of the problem for us, but this does not apply to my argument, sadly. You must realize that. God could have created anything out of nothing that did not do the evil deeds He initially thought of. I am not one who creates out of nothing, therefore your attempt to make me like unto God, as BrianH did, presents us with a weak ****ogy--a logical fallacy--an ineffective argument.

No they aren't.

One question asked what God knew, and the other asked what God caused.

Not really. Each question asked where the original idea of the evil deed originated. Thus to answer differently only proves my point. Thanks BTW.

The fact that God thought of everything anyone would ever do doesn't mean God was the cause or author of evil.

Not in itself. This is not my argument, Batman. The fact that God thought of every evil deed, before creating ex nihilo, and each and every evil deed would not be committed if God did not first think of it, does force upon God the cause of evil. Its a sad and destructive theology.

That's not what they believe, stem.

I have many times conceeded that many to most mainstream Christians have not thought enough about their own beliefs to get the logical conclusion I've described. Its not about what they believe, but about what is the logical conclusion of their belief. If God did not first think of every evil act each creature would do, in their beliefs, then He is not what they claimed He is. He did not create ex nihilo, and He did not know every deed that each creature would do.

God never thought of killing Abel. God simply knew that Cain would.

... and, again, all of this is according to THEIR theology as well as ours.

So God never thought of that which was to occur but He knew that it would occur long before it occurred? That just makes no sense, Batman. I hope you come to realize that.

... and you're determined to think they do not agree with us, aren't ya.

... which is sad, really, considering the fact that they do, on this issue.

I'm all for building on that which we agree on, but there is no agreement on this issue. God did not create out of nothing, as you seem to think He did, according to LDS belief, and God did not originally think of every evil deed that would occur. You are simply wrong. Thanks for your input though.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by James Banta

A mormon/atheist would say so because they seem to believe knowing that evil will happen makes a person responsible for those actions..

Not true. But that is all beside the points I"ve raised. So its merely a deflection as it stands.

I don't happen to agree with that.. In fact if you had power to stop the evil in men's hearts from manifesting it's self you would be just as evil stopping the free exercise of their will as the person is you would stop from the fulfillment of his evil works..

Then you better learn to put a sock into it, when it comes to speaking your opinion on "moral" issues and when it comes to preaching the word of God.

Are you willing to cast a person into prison for the sin of murder you know they will commit before they commit the crime? I know that if a person does not repent and turn to God they will end up being cast into the Lake of Fire... Am I guilty of their crime of denying God? NO!!! IHS jim

I have no intention of casting a person in prison for not committing a crime. But that has nothing to do with my argument either.

love,
stem

[James Banta]

[stemelbow;38390]Then you better learn to put a sock into it, when it comes to speaking your opinion on "moral" issues and when it comes to preaching the word of God.

Go ahead and explain this stem.. Tell everyone what you know about me.. Have I sinned so serious a sin that I am excluded from God's forgiveness though Jesus? When does it say in the scripture that I am ****ed for eternity? Is it just because you say so? Tell me stem have you ever lied? I mean even what we call a "Little white lie"? Do you know how serious lying is?

Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Can you be forgiven? YES!! Can I, for the sins I have sinned against God? You tell me..

I have no intention of casting a person in prison for not committing a crime. But that has nothing to do with my argument either.

You signed this message "love" I am not seeing it in you.. All I see from you is judgment.. And stem if you don't want to punish a person for sins they haven't commited yet, even knowing they will commit them, Why are you holding God to a different standard? IHS jim

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Go ahead and explain this stem.. Tell everyone what you know about me..

uh, you're a male that lives in Sandy, UT like me. You seem older than I am.

Have I sinned so serious a sin that I am excluded from God's forgiveness though Jesus?

I don't know if you've even sinned per se. I imagine your sins are many but I don't know that.

When does it say in the scripture that I am ****ed for eternity?

I don't think it talks about you in scripture.

Is it just because you say so?

I did say anything about you being ****ed for eternity.

Tell me stem have you ever lied?

Yes.

I mean even what we call a "Little white lie"? Do you know how serious lying is?

I think I get how serious it is.

Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and *****mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Can you be forgiven? YES!! Can I, for the sins I have sinned against God? You tell me..

Sure.

You signed this message "love" I am not seeing it in you.. All I see from you is judgment.. And stem if you don't want to punish a person for sins they haven't commited yet, even knowing they will commit them, Why are you holding God to a different standard? IHS jim

I'm not.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

That had to have. Besides, BH, has already conceded this point and you did too. You just said, "First to conceive of their evil deeds, right... according to their theology". Now you saythe very opposite. And you don't think you are contradicting yourself?

No, I'm not contradicting myself. You just don't understand my perspective.

In my perspective, there is a difference between God conceiving of the evil deeds of OTHER PEOPLE, THEIR OWN evil deeds, on the one hand, and God's mind being the ORIGIN of those evil deeds with God simply creating or inspiring other people to carry out those evil deeds for him.

According to them the evil deeds were initially thought of by God, but they didn't originate in his mind? Is that your argument?

No, stem.

I'm saying that, according to them, God knew what others would do even before those others were created, but God is not the one who inspired or created those people for the purpose of doing those evil deeds he could forsee the people he created doing.

I am not one who creates out of nothing, therefore your attempt to make me like unto God, as BrianH did, presents us with a weak ****ogy--a logical fallacy--an ineffective argument.

My attempt to make you like unto God ?

What on Earth are you talking about ?

What kind of God do you think I'm trying to make out of you, stem ?

Please enlighten me.

Not really. Each question asked where the original idea of the evil deed originated. Thus to answer differently only proves my point. Thanks BTW.

I think we're running and will continue to run into some trouble here because words, alone, aren't enough to convey some of these ideas, considering the fact that words, themselves, can be interpreted in several different ways.

Bottom line: Mainstream Christian's don't believe their God is Satan, and their theology doesn't lead them to believe Satan is their God, either.

Got that ?

Now try to realize that Satan is the one who they generally consider to be the one who came up with all of the evil thoughts which he now inspires other people to carry out, so the fact that YOU (stem) are saying that mainstream Christians believe God is the one who came up with all of the evil thoughts and that evil deeds originated with God is, well, let's just say that what you are doing isn't going over very well here, stem.

They're not buying what you are saying, and I don't blame them, because I didn't believe that either when I was a mainstream Christian.

Try to do more to show the distinction between our Father in heaven and Satan, stem, or at least consider all of the ways your words could be understood by the others here.

The fact that God thought of every evil deed, before creating ex nihilo, and each and every evil deed would not be committed if God did not first think of it, does force upon God the cause of evil. Its a sad and destructive theology.

Whose theology do you have in mind when you say that, stem ?

Can you see a way that you could use many of the same words when describing our (LDS) theology while having a completely different thought in your mind ?

Here, try this, for starters:

God knew what others would do even before those others were created, but God is not the one who inspired or created evil in the minds and hearts of those who he created while willing them to do what is evil.

... He did not know every deed that each creature would do.

Actually, he did, stem. God knew and still knows everything.

God did not create out of nothing, as you seem to think He did...

No, stem. I've already said they are wrong about that idea, and I was speaking from their perspective when I said what I was saying.

[James Banta]

[stemelbow;38406]uh, you're a male that lives in Sandy, UT like me. You seem older than I am.

What can I say 1952 was a very good year

I don't know if you've even sinned per se. I imagine your sins are many but I don't know that.

My sins were many and terrible.. Now they are gone through the blood of Jesus. All of them are gone. I confessed them to Him and to my brothers and sisters in Jesus.

I don't think it talks about you in scripture.

I am all over the Bible.. I have already given you more than one example remember the part that says all murderers and liars would be cast into the Lake of Fire, before I was in Jesus that was ME..

I did say anything about you being ****ed for eternity.

If you have had you would have been on the right path.. for that is what the fifth in my life was leading me toward.. That is what my works have earned.. That is why the grace of God is so presious to me.. IHS jim

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by James Banta

My sins were many and terrible.. Now they are gone through the blood of Jesus. All of them are gone. I confessed them to Him and to my brothers and sisters in Jesus.

So if anyone were to ask you if you have any sins, what would you say ?

Oh, nevermind. I can already see that you answered that question.

All of your sins are gone. You no longer have any.

I can relate, Jim.

Pretty cool, huh.

[nrajeff]

For the record, I think Stem's point is quite valid: Even though a person may believe that God is absolutely omniscient, omnipotent, and sovereign, that person may not believe that God is responsible for the creation of evil....even thought that is precisely what the person's beliefs, taken to their logical conclusion, DEMAND. Some people just don't grasp the ramifications of their beliefs.

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

For the record, I think Stem's point is quite valid: Even though a person may believe that God is absolutely omniscient, omnipotent, and sovereign, that person may not believe that God is responsible for the creation of evil....even thought that is precisely what the person's beliefs, taken to their logical conclusion, DEMAND. Some people just don't grasp the ramifications of their beliefs.

Noted for the record, jeff.

I'd now like to go on record for saying that I agree with that idea, in principle, as long as the principle is applied correctly.

For example: If person X really didn't believe God was responsible for E and someone else came along and told him that he really did believe God was responsible for E even though he just said he didn't, I'd advise person X to continue believing whatever he said he believed regardless of what the other person was saying he believed.

Some people just don't grasp the ramifications of their actions.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

No, I'm not contradicting myself. You just don't understand my perspective.

In my perspective, there is a difference between God conceiving of the evil deeds of OTHER PEOPLE, THEIR OWN evil deeds, on the one hand, and God's mind being the ORIGIN of those evil deeds with God simply creating or inspiring other people to carry out those evil deeds for him.

I see your confusion. It seems you think by saying origin it must also mean God inspired the evil deeds. That's not what I've said and origin does not carry that conotation. Hope that helps.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Fewf! finally batman you're on board.

And thanks Jeff. I was wondering if anyone was going to get it, but I already knew you did according to past comments you've made on teh matter.

BTW batman I never did say any particular person believed God is responsible for evil. I have clearly stuck with the idea that their religion if taken to its logical conclusion put God in the sticky position of being he who originated evil, and even with that any person can accept the beliefs of the mainstream Christian religion and still deny that God is the source of evil. It's illogical to do so, but anyone can do it.

love,
stem

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

So if anyone were to ask you if you have any sins, what would you say ?

Oh, nevermind. I can already see that you answered that question.

All of your sins are gone. You no longer have any.

I can relate, Jim.

Pretty cool, huh.

If you have allowed Jesus , the Jesus who is God who always has been God, the one and only God that has ever and will ever exist, to take your sin and nail it to the cross and change you, your very nature from the natural sinful heart you were born with and let Him live within you then I would say praise God there has been a spirit birth this day.. But if you are putting your hope in a being that became a God through keeping Laws and preforming ordinances then I would understand that you were deceived in your thoughts.. IHS jim

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by James Banta

If you have allowed Jesus , the Jesus who is God who always has been God, the one and only God that has ever and will ever exist, to take your sin and nail it to the cross and change you, your very nature from the natural sinful heart you were born with and let Him live within you then I would say praise God there has been a spirit birth this day..

Yes, Jim, praise God, but that spiritual rebirth actually happened quite a whole ago for me, personally, and not just today.

But if you are putting your hope in a being that became a God through keeping Laws and preforming ordinances then I would understand that you were deceived in your thoughts.. IHS jim

No worries there, mate, because that's not what I believe, nor is it what other LDS believe, generally.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by Bat-Man

Yes, Jim, praise God, but that spiritual rebirth actually happened quite a whole ago for me, personally, and not just today.


No worries there, mate, because that's not what I believe, nor is it what other LDS believe, generally.

Why don't we go to a stake President and ask him.. There is one right here in my neighborhood that is a really great man.. I would love to seem Him straighten you out.. IHS jim

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Why don't we go to a stake President and ask him.. There is one right here in my neighborhood that is a really great man.. I would love to seem Him straighten you out.. IHS jim

Heh, I'd rather just go straight to the top to ask God to straighten me out.

... but thank you for the vote of confidence in one of our stake presidents.

[stemelbow]

bump for BH.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

You aren't paying attention. I have conceded that in spite of the logical conclusions of your religion you do not believe that God is the source of all evil. I have repeatedly stated that you obviously haven't thought these things through; thus, you in direct contradiction to the logical conclusion of your beliefs reject the notion that GOd is the source of all evil.

No YOUR deliberate misrepresentation of my beliefs are in contradiction to YOUR revision of logic that ignores your own accusations.

You don't have to conclude anything for one. But my explanation has been clear, it is the principles and beliefs of the mainstream Christian religion when taken to their logical conclusions that puts God as the source of evil. You, BrianH, just haven't thought much about your religious beliefs, obviously.

Wrong again, sonny. In admitting that evil is NOT the will of God (my position) you have again conceded my point that God is NOT the source of evil. Trying to back out won't work. It is YOU that is identifying God as the source of evil and continuing to pretend that is my conclusion and the only conclusion. But you have already admitted that is not the case. And I was thinking and reading about this mateial when you were still making yellow in your diapers, boy.

I clearly explained why your ****ogy has failed. It is you who decided not to respond to my argument.

Your "explanation" isn't worth the bandwidth you consumed in the process. The FACT is that by YOUR logic, you are responsible for the sin of your children. Whether you created them ex hihilo or not is irrelevant. The fact is they did not exist before they sinned, you knew they would sin, yet you procreated them anyway. By YOUR logic, YOU are guilty of causing the sins they committed.

You haven't even touched on the thrust of my argument sadly.

Since you are the one making the concessions here, its hard to imagine what kind of fantasy world you are living in.

There ya go again avoiding the thrust of my argument while pretending that your false ****ogy, which has already been explained ,snip>...blah blah blah and more of the same empty repa***ions <snip>

Yer just ****in' smoke again, Stem. Just repeating your straw man fallacies does not validate them. If God did not WILL evil, then he is not the source of it. That men with free will choose to pervert the good is the fault of MEN, not God, even though he knew they would so choose.

Now go tie your shoes.

-BH

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[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by James Banta

A mormon/atheist would say so because they seem to believe knowing that evil will happen makes a person responsible for those actions..

----Don't YOU (and many other Christians) believe that God is the person 100% responsible for all the GOOD things you do, Jim?

In fact if you had power to stop the evil in men's hearts from manifesting it's self you would be just as evil stopping the free exercise of their will as the person is you would stop from the fulfillment of his evil works..

---Who is 100% responsible for stopping you from doing the evil things that you could do but don't do? Is God evil for preventing that?

Are you willing to cast a person into prison for the sin of murder you know they will commit before they commit the crime?

---Don't you believe that God pre-judged and pre-sentenced all the people---even before they were CREATED--whom He eventually sends to hell? Something to do with predestination, omniscience, and sovereignty....

[stemelbow]

I see you have decided to not answer the question. Its quite telling that you have avoided such again, and have latched on to deflection whilst avoiding the thrust of my argument. If you're willing to leave your argument as such, then its up to you.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

I haven't avoided anything - I am not a Mormon, Stem. I have dealt with your lame straw man, damaged logic and false accusations repeatedly and all you have done is repeat them over and over. You can do the usual Mormon thing and just chant your mind-numbing mantra, if you like. But just repeating your errors is not the same thing as actually correcting them.

-BH

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[stemelbow]

Good BH. I'm glad you have decided to avoid the last question I posed to you and leave your argument as it stands--you know the one in which you failed to even address the thrust of my own argument. It demonstrates perfectly what I've been saying all along--most mainstream Christians haven't even tried to think through their own beliefs to recognize how sinister it is.

I encourage you to continue down the illogical and unreasonable course you are on, because if you learn to apply logic and reason to your beliefs you may arrive at the logical conclusion that God is evil, ***uming your beliefs are true. I'd hate to see you turn atheist at that point. Just realize if you ever do head down that road there are alternative theologies that do not force upon God the origin of evil. And you can preserve the benefit of actually having faith in God without having to live in contradiction, lacking integrity.

love,
stem

[BrianH]

Good BH. I'm glad you have decided to avoid the last question...<snip>

I avoided nothing. I did not give you the programmed answer you want and upon which you can do nothing but REPEAT. Here is another little taste of reality for the Mormon: Disagreeing with YOU (especially with YOU) is not "avoidance".

Try as you may, you have failed to establish YOUR damaged logic as an explanation of MY beliefs. Deny it as you will, but your ***umption was revealed in the text you deceptively edited out after failing to defend it: YOU say that I (a NON-LDS) believe that God is the source of all evil and you have been trying to prove that lame ***ertion ever since.

Your deceptions fool no one but yourself, Stem. Had you any moral courage left, you would be ashamed of yourself.

-BH

.

Meanwhile, you have offered no explanation of your own, so it remains obvious that all you have is all Mormons ever have: a blindly dogmatic body of ***umptions that cannot withstand even minimal scrutiny.