Let us spotlight and particular teaching

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

Originally Posted by BrianH

First of all, I am quite familiar with my beliefs, so I certainly do not need you to explain them to me.

Secondly, it is obvious that YOU do NOT understand my beliefs, given your misrepresentation of them right here.

Third, since the rest of your questions are based on the unsubstantiated, falacious and false premise (that God is the source of evil), they deserve no more answer than if you had asked me to give you the date on which I stopped selling crack to first graders.

While it is obvious that you are unfamilair with the range of thought Christian scholars and philosophers have represented on this matter, if you would like me to explain my own understanding of the origin of evil, just ask. Meanwhile, since this is the MORMON forum, I suggest that rather than pretending to dictate to others what they believe, you have a responsibility to represent the MORMON view on this topic. But don't pretend to dictate to me what I believe either by fallacious questions or any other means.

-BH

.

Brian, if someone were to offer an LDS view on this topic, would you be prepared and willing to offer a Protestant view in contrast and in comparison?

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Please take your discussion of whether God forced man to sin to another thread. This thread is about how mainstream Christianity, if taken to its logical conclusion, forces God to be the source of evil.

love,
stem

By this reasoning you should move this entire thread to the proper forum as THIS forum is intended to discuss Mormonism and not Christianity. Really do you even pay attention to what forum you are in in your attempts to broadly misrepresent Mainstream Christianity?

Send me a link to this thread once it is placed in its correct forum and I will definitely respond.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

By this reasoning you should move this entire thread to the proper forum as THIS forum is intended to discuss Mormonism and not Christianity.

Mormonism is Christianity in its true form.

This thread is designed to discuss and outline how Momonism differs from Christianity in a certain way. You should stop whining about balanced discussions and start contributing something. All I've seen is you whining, even about Russell.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Thus, the very seed, the very beginning of each and every evil act, did not originate in the mind of a man or the devil. Without God thinking them before creating out of nothing none of the evil deeds would have occurred, right?

Here's the question you avoided. Please answer yes or no, or right or wrong. If wrong please explain how it really is in your mind.

Deny it as you will, but your ***umption was revealed in the text you deceptively edited out after failing to defend it: YOU say that I (a NON-LDS) believe that God is the source of all evil and you have been trying to prove that lame ***ertion ever since.

So you're whining about me erasing my hypothesis, as stated in the OP, so would you stop obfuscating and answer the questions suggesting that doing so is deceptive? BH, this is all a very adorable deflection, but really what does my erasing have to do with all of this? Its really just giving you something to whine about in hopes to cause a smoke screen again. Look you can either answer the questions as asked, reply appropriately to the arguments I've raised or you can continue to deflect and run from the points and questions raised. Its your choice. Either way, I'll fulfill my objective--showing for those who are logical how LDS are right on this and the mainstreamers are wrong.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Enlightening questions, Jeff. Thanks for adding them.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Mormonism is Christianity in its true form.

This thread is designed to discuss and outline how Momonism differs from Christianity in a certain way. You should stop whining about balanced discussions and start contributing something. All I've seen is you whining, even about Russell.

love,
stem

Originally Posted by Stem

I got some questions

Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?

***uming all the above is in line with your beliefs lets move on...

God created beings and knew each and every action each being would do throughout eternity, right?

He knew, for instance, that little Russ would tell his mom a lie when he was little, right?

But God, being all-powerful, didn't have to create any beings who would do anything evil right?

Without creating there would be no evil practiced there would only be God, right?

A creature would not do evil things if God first did not create that being out of nothing knowing full well all actions that being would do, right?

God knew which beings would be saved eternally and which beings would be ****ed for eternity before creating any of them, right?

God did not have to create any beings who would be ****ed for eternity, right?

There would be absolutely no suffering, of the worst kind, if God did not create, right?

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

And yet the OP does not clearly address your supposed intent. Hmmmm.

Originally Posted by Stem

Mormonism is Christianity in its true form.

Now that would be a relevant thread, how about you start one that proves this??

Regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

And yet the OP does not clearly address your supposed intent. Hmmmm.

Its implicit since I"m an LDS Christian. Not too hard to figure right?

Now that would be a relevant thread, how about you start one that proves this??

Go ahead and start that if you like. This one is set aside to put into an LDS belief context the problem that mainstreamers have with evil, when you take their beliefs to their logical conclusions.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Its implicit since I"m an LDS Christian. Not too hard to figure right?



Go ahead and start that if you like. This one is set aside to put into an LDS belief context the problem that mainstreamers have with evil, when you take their beliefs to their logical conclusions.

love,
stem

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Its implicit since I"m an LDS Christian. Not too hard to figure right?

No it's off topic for this forum, unless you include your implicit opinion as to why LDS perspective on the matter is more correct than your personal understanding of "Mainstream Christian" doctrine. You could do so by offering supporting documentation, links and or quotations from universally accepted texts. Instead you start an entire thread designed to discuss when taken in it's written context ONLY "Mainstream Christian" theology. This ignoring of the other half of the problem is unbalanced. Why not say what you mean instead of counting on others to understand your implied beliefs, now that would improve communication.

Originally Posted by Stem

Go ahead and start that if you like.

I have before, and they ultimately ended in silence from LDS posters. Using your logic I am to conclude that LDS posters are "afraid" or "running"... Right?

Originally Posted by Stem

This one is set aside to put into an LDS belief context the problem that mainstreamers have with evil, when you take their beliefs to their logical conclusions.

And yet, your OP is void of any reference or supporting argument from the LDS perspective. All you have offered is a Mischaracterization of Mainstream Christian thought, and have left the reader nothing as to what LDS theology teaches or offers that supports your argument. Your OP is clearly one sided with a motive to "turn the tables" on those you falsely esteem as your attacker or enemy. Nothing more.

Kindest regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

This ignoring of the other half of the problem is unbalanced. Why not say what you mean instead of counting on others to understand your implied beliefs, now that would improve communication.

Methinks the problem would be your ***umption. Other non-LDS folks ahve commented here, and one has answered "correct" to all my questions. That alone really makes the mainstream position look really bad...sadly. In light of LDS belief we do not answer all the questions, "correct". On top of that, I have added why I do not see why LDS beliefs do not suffer the same problems in this thread.

All you have offered is a Mischaracterization of Mainstream Christian thought...

Oh good an opinion on the actual topic. How so? I mean you may have to take your complaint to BH because he has already answered all of the questions in the OP as being "correct". So what, in particular, do you take issue with?

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Methinks the problem would be your ***umption. Other non-LDS folks ahve commented here, and one has answered "correct" to all my questions. That alone really makes the mainstream position look really bad...sadly. In light of LDS belief we do not answer all the questions, "correct". On top of that, I have added why I do not see why LDS beliefs do not suffer the same problems in this thread.



Oh good an opinion on the actual topic. How so? I mean you may have to take your complaint to BH because he has already answered all of the questions in the OP as being "correct". So what, in particular, do you take issue with?

love,
stem

Originally Posted by Stem

That alone really makes the mainstream position look really bad...sadly.

Which of course was what I believe was your intent all along..

Originally Posted by Stem

Oh good an opinion on the actual topic. How so? I mean you may have to take your complaint to BH because he has already answered all of the questions in the OP as being "correct". So what, in particular, do you take issue with?

Not here in a forum focused on Mormonism, perhaps you could offer some real LDS support demonstrating how and why LDS belief is more correct. Maybe you could offer some actual scripture to back that up, and then we would have something to discuss. BTW while I am sure BH has answered authoritatively for himself and possibly others, do not make the false ***umption that he/she speaks for all of Christendom.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Enlightening questions, Jeff. Thanks for adding them. love,stem

---They can't be good questions, or else our opponents would address them...uh, right?

[stemelbow]

Fine, run along, S. Hopefully some other non-LDS Christian will step up to the plate, and willingly discuss his/her beliefs even if they wish to criticize LDS beliefs.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---They can't be good questions, or else our opponents would address them...uh, right?

I get it silence equals inability.. I should remember that in the future huh?

Regards,
Sentinus

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Fine, run along, S. Hopefully some other non-LDS Christian will step up to the plate, and willingly discuss his/her beliefs even if they wish to criticize LDS beliefs.

love,
stem

And hopefully you will recognize the intent of the forum you are posting in and stay on topic. More importantly maybe you will develop a sincere desire to really understand "Mainstream Christian" thought and take your excellent questions to those that desire to answer them with patience and understanding.

Regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

I've tried, S. Too bad you are unwilling to help me out.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I've tried, S. Too bad you are unwilling to help me out.

love,
stem

Try revising your threads and wording them in a way that is specific and targeted towards Mormonism and LDS thought, or why the LDS teaching is more correct. Use specific scriptures that support your claims, and if possible the agreed upon writings of your churches leadership and prophetic counsel on matters. If you are unwilling to revise, try starting a new thread that is on topic, and see where that gets you. I am however unwilling to discuss "Mainstream Christian" theology alone without the thread being somehow directed at a specific contrast, comparison or point regarding Mormonism.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[John T]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Not true. I am not an atheist. thus, you have directly contradicted my position, when attempting to define my position--its a straw man.

Uh, have you read what I posted?
I described your POSITION, not your person.
As I stated before, your position is that a good God, and the existence of evil can not coexist simultaneously. Here. read this from YOUR POST 49:

I suggested that Christianity if taken to its logical conclusion forces God to be the source of evil. And it remains obvious you haven't really though this all through, just like many of your co-religionists. I do not suggest you or any of your co-religionists affirm that God is the source of evil, even though JD once admitted God certainly is indirectly.

Also read this from your post 51

There is absolutely no connection here. God conceived of every evil rape, how it would happen and under what circumstances it would come about, for instance.

What ELSE do we need to address your erroneous presuppositions, other than to point them out?? Until you come up with a better reason than your scoffing at what we say, and tell us why the positions that you put forth are NOT atheistic, in nature, we will be left to read your bombast that very poorly subs***utes as intelligent discussion of an issue.

Interesting set of ***ertions, wrong, but most importantly bald.

Time to see Bosley!
Other than saying "wrong" deal with exactly why you believe that they are wrong. Otherwise, more bombast.

Great. So to you, John, in spite of the mainstream Christian perspective, God could not have conceived of every single act each person would do before He created them?

Again, more of the atheistic position, maintaining that the foreknowledge of God is helpless to prevent the evil choices of humanity.

Your argument is now not only with Father JD, but also BrianH. A sticky position to be in. Truly Father JD is much closer to the mainstream concept than BrianH is, and you are even further from the mainstream Christian perspective than BrianH.

As a LDS person, you are unable to state that, especially in light of the fact that you present a faulty position as "representing mainstream Christianity".

You see, what you are doing is trying to "debate yourself" in this thread. You are not accepting plain, orthodox statements from serious Christian scholars and you are essentially stating that what you erroneously state as the "mainstream Christian position" is wrong. That is called straw man argumentation.

It is also blasphemous. His sovereignty does not extend to every evil act of a creative reprobate, but his sovereignty extends over those acts so that none of those creatively evil acts will ever thwart His plans.

That doesn't make sense. Care to clarify?

Do you not understand blasphemy? That is attributing evil to a just, righteous and holy God, for it is an***hetical to his ontological being.

Do you not understand sovereignty? That means that God rules over everything, but he is not responsible for everything

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will

Proberbs 16: 4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

uh do you know what a red herring is?

Yes, it is a rhetorical device to deflect discussion of the topic aT HAND. Now that I answered your question, here is one for you. Explain how the quote below is germane to or contributing to the discussion.

You are ***uming (A) God and (B) ME are similar
Since in your estimation God can create ex nihilo and knows full well each deed each creation will do before creating that that somehow equates to me having offspring when I can't create ex nihilo or know anything my offspring will do.

I'm missing my own point? Whatever.

Certainly! You have demonstrated an abject failure in dealing with issues brought forth, unless you think scoffing is an intelligent subs***ute for logical discussion. TSK

LSD people? On what basis do you claim that LSD people originated syphilis? Please explain yourself. So far you haven't explained anything.

Here we go AGAIN! You are taking as literal what clearly, and in context is an absurd simile. In case you failed to notice, I was critiquing your poor conclusion.

you're further off the point than BrianH. I admire your efforts to defend BH and FJD, but your comments prove you need to re-read my comments. You have misunderstood.

I do not defend anyone; rather, I explain the commonly held positions, and that is what you seem not to understand.

Since in your estimation, I have not understood, perhaps if you could give a non-scoffing critique MAYBE we can progress beyond the school yard shouting match that you seem to want to make happen.

You should have posted the RED HERRING ALERT here, since you are the one guilty of such.

By definition, this is a red herring, and you have the gall to accuse me of what you are doing???

You don't like that? Great...I'm mirroring, BrianH. He's taught me well.

What does THIS have to do with your own discussion???

Okay, how does the concept of free, unmerited grace save you from the explanations I've offered?

FINALLY, an on topic question!
One has nothing to do with the other. Grace does not militate against the freewill choice do evil.

This is a straw-man. I'm afraid you don't know my position, so your attempt to attack it is rather pointless.

What is pointless is for you to carp about something, but not clearly delineate your position so that people can discuss it. Instead, you are playing us as you would play the child who is trying to hit the pinata, but you keep moving the target.

Play nicely, and deal with what I posted, or else there will be patent evidence to all here that you have no intention of having a rational discussion.

If that is evident, then I am through here.

[stemelbow]

What is pointless is for you to carp about something, but not clearly delineate your position so that people can discuss it. Instead, you are playing us as you would play the child who is trying to hit the pinata, but you keep moving the target.

Clearly, John, there was a miscommunication between us somewhere. My apologies. My position is cleared up in the questions in the OP. Do you, like BH, think the answer to each question in the OP is "right" or "correct" or "yes"? If so we can go from there. If not, then please explain what in the OP, which particular questions do not represent your belief system?

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

I don't think I'll revise it to your fancy, S. if you don't wish to participate then simply don't participate. I figure if you're going to be so petty that you will whine about this, i figure you'll probably whine about something else I revise the OP to say. Plus, there are already discussions going on based on the OP, so I don't want to change it now as if take the rug out from under them?

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I don't think I'll revise it to your fancy, S. if you don't wish to participate then simply don't participate. I figure if you're going to be so petty that you will whine about this, i figure you'll probably whine about something else I revise the OP to say. Plus, there are already discussions going on based on the OP, so I don't want to change it now as if take the rug out from under them?

love,
stem

As for your "figuring" about my response to an on topic thread I think you would be surprised. I am however a little put off by your at***ude at times. Referring to anyone's response or lack of as "fear" based or "running" is devisive and just plain rude. Also calling someone "petty" or a "whiner" is belittling and surely isn't a great way to open up communication.

As I have said already you are free to ignore my posts, my larger goal here is to have all other non LDS posters respond to you in a similar fashion, and force the dialogue here to stay on focus to the intent of the forum. If in time I find that I am the only one that feels this way, (Which I know I am not) and others communicate this to me (Non LDS) I will of course simply move on and respect that others don't feel as I do regarding the matter. And of course I will honor any moderated request. I do have a sneaking suspicion though that moderation would agree with me, I could be wrong though.

Have a great day,
Sentinus

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

I get it silence equals inability.. I should remember that in the future huh?

--So are they good questions? Or not?

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

--So are they good questions? Or not?

What really matters is how you feel about them, and the perceived value you feel they have to others who encounter them.

Every theology on the planet is a finite expression of an infinite en***y. Until God determines to part the skies and speak authoritatively in a supernatural way to all these discussions will continue. As long as man attempts in his feeble way to express that which is beyond human comprehension in guttural sounds we call words this problem will exist. All the worlds theologies and philosophies have illogical points and outcomes,some more than others.

Too many of focus to long on the destination and ignore the value of the journey.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[John T]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I got some questions
Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

One way to translate Genesis 1:1 is to say, "When the beginning began, God created..." Therefore that ***umes (from the original Hebrew) that all that existed was the Godhead.

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

I covered this before. The omniscience of God does not ipso facto make Him responsible for the evil choices of humanity. He knew of all things that would happen to Lucifer, whom He created, and he also knew the plan of salvation before He created anything. If you do not believe that is true, please tell us from Ephesians 1 where we are wrong.

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Here we go AGAIN in the atheistic position. God's permissive will in permitting evil decisions and actions does not diminish nor thwart HIS PLANS FROM ETERNITY.

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

See above. The above two statements are CLEARLY atheistic in thought. That is because they set up a false choice scenario in that either God id good, and therefore all good things should happen, or else if evil exists, then there is no holy God. Therein lies your false reasoning.

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?

From that atheistic position, you make another error in logic: God is then the author of evil since all that God created was good.

***uming all the above is in line with your beliefs lets move on...

OBVIOUSLY an error and an erroneous ***umption. So you should have ended your insipid "gotcha game" before you got here. The rest of your "conclusions" (Did you "borrow" these from someone else?) are improbable, impossible and do not merit discussion.

You see this thread does not work as you hoped it might. Because you failed to understand the things I discussed, and are unable, due to being a works-oriented LDS person, you are unappreciative, and perhaps blinded, having an inability to understand how the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed (charged to) the "credit side" of the Christian's account with God, and as a result of that, there is therefore NEVER any condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, meaning Christians who are saved by grace, and not earning 'Temple Tickets" to have "sealings" to merit acceptance in heaven.

God created beings and knew each and every action each being would do throughout eternity, right? YES

He knew, for instance, that little Russ would tell his mom a lie when he was little, right? YES

But God, being all-powerful, didn't have to create any beings who would do anything evil right? WRONG

Without creating there would be no evil practiced there would only be God, right? WRONG

A creature would not do evil things if God first did not create that being out of nothing knowing full well all actions that being would do, right? WRONG

God knew which beings would be saved eternally and which beings would be ****ed for eternity before creating any of them, right? WRONG

God did not have to create any beings who would be ****ed for eternity, right? WRONG

There would be absolutely no suffering, of the worst kind, if God did not create, right? WRONG

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

love, stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

As for your "figuring" about my response to an on topic thread I think you would be surprised. I am however a little put off by your at***ude at times. Referring to anyone's response or lack of as "fear" based or "running" is devisive and just plain rude. Also calling someone "petty" or a "whiner" is belittling and surely isn't a great way to open up communication.

As I have said already you are free to ignore my posts, my larger goal here is to have all other non LDS posters respond to you in a similar fashion, and force the dialogue here to stay on focus to the intent of the forum. If in time I find that I am the only one that feels this way, (Which I know I am not) and others communicate this to me (Non LDS) I will of course simply move on and respect that others don't feel as I do regarding the matter. And of course I will honor any moderated request. I do have a sneaking suspicion though that moderation would agree with me, I could be wrong though.

Its okay if you wish to whine about me as a poster rather than talk about the topics of threads. Its up to you, but its off-topic and a deflection from the point of the thread. Kinda funny seeing as you are whining about being off-topic when you haven't posted a response on-topic yet. Such deflection lends credence to the idea that you have something to hide or fear. NO big deal...I just hope you learn to deal with it.

love,
stem

Have a great day,
Sentinus[/QUOTE]

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by John T

One way to translate Genesis 1:1 is to say, "When the beginning began, God created..." Therefore that ***umes (from the original Hebrew) that all that existed was the Godhead.

Great that's an agreement.

I covered this before. The omniscience of God does not ipso facto make Him responsible for the evil choices of humanity. He knew of all things that would happen to Lucifer, whom He created, and he also knew the plan of salvation before He created anything. If you do not believe that is true, please tell us from Ephesians 1 where we are wrong.

I can see you conceded that this one was correct as well, right?

Here we go AGAIN in the atheistic position. God's permissive will in permitting evil decisions and actions does not diminish nor thwart HIS PLANS FROM ETERNITY.

This was not an answer to my question. Please try again.

See above. The above two statements are CLEARLY atheistic in thought.

Actually no, my thoughts are strictly LDS, and from that vantage point I see a clear problem with your belief system. Be that as it may it seems you agree that this question is correct too, great.

From that atheistic position, you make another error in logic: God is then the author of evil since all that God created was good.

By this non-answer are you conceeding the point? DId God originally conceive of every evil deed before creating ex nihilo? BTW I am arguing from an LDS position not an atheistic position as you keep suggesting.

OBVIOUSLY an error and an erroneous ***umption. So you should have ended your insipid "gotcha game" before you got here. The rest of your "conclusions" (Did you "borrow" these from someone else?) are improbable, impossible and do not merit discussion.

Wow. I'm not sure what was an error since you never described exactly what was in error. I did not borrow these particular questions no. Just so you know BrianH, at least, answered correct to all the questions. So, it appears youought to whine to him about he doesn't understand mainstream beliefs before you should whine about me supposedly not knowing. It seems obvious to me, and probably to him, that you are the one who doesn't understand. Oh well. Your jumping to conslusions instead of answering questions seems to hit the nail on the head here.

You see this thread does not work as you hoped it might. Because you failed to understand the things I discussed, and are unable, due to being a works-oriented LDS person, you are unappreciative, and perhaps blinded, having an inability to understand how the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed (charged to) the "credit side" of the Christian's account with God, and as a result of that, there is therefore NEVER any condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, meaning Christians who are saved by grace, and not earning 'Temple Tickets" to have "sealings" to merit acceptance in heaven.

Actually its working perfectly. One great complaint by many a mainstreamer--BH, Russell, JD and the like is that LDS haven't thought much, generally about their own beliefs. This thread has shown that you and BH haven't thought much about your own beliefs. I already know JD and Russell haven't thought these things through totally either. For one, the complaint that LDS don't know a lot about or haven't htought a lot about LDs belief is merely a hypocritcal complaint. For another, this problem is the ultimate, in my imagination, in terms of destructive beliefs. Its a sad and terrible theology you believe in.

love,
stem