Let us spotlight and particular teaching

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Let us sum up the evangelical religion then. Based on the only evan who answered the above questions the answer for evans is all correct, although one did suggest without any reasoning that one or two at least were wrong. I don't know which ones or how they were wrong. Either way BH answered them all correct. So that means...

To the mainstreamer...

God created all creatures out of nothing, and all actions, mostly evil but some good, were originally conceived of in the mind of God. Afterall before Lucifer was created God thought of the deeds that would make Lucifer who he is long before God created him out of nothing. Accordingly, even lucifer would not have done an evil deed if God did not first conceive of the evil deeds he was going to do. He wouldn't have rebelled if God did not conceive of his rebellion, how it would come about, what inside him which caused his rebellion, and all. Additionally not one other wise uncreated being would not suffer pain and torture in this life if God did not conceive of ways that these beings would suffer pain and torture. Indeed, each and every evil deed, all according to mainstreamism, can be traced back to the conception of God. the evil doer didn't conceive of the evil deeds...God did not long before. Since God is the originator of every evil deed, according to mainstreamism's belief system if taken to its logical conclusion, then God is the very source of the bad stuff.

Of course for LDS God is not the source of evil. He did not create evil deeds, thus evil deeds were conceived of long before He knew they would occur. Its that simple.

love,
stem

Originally Posted by Stem

Since God is the originator of every evil deed, according to mainstreamism's belief system if taken to its logical conclusion, then God is the very source of the bad stuff.

Good thing God isn't limited by mans simplistic logic.

Originally Posted by Stem

Of course for LDS God is not the source of evil. He did not create evil deeds, thus evil deeds were conceived of long before He knew they would occur. Its that simple.

If evil deeds were conceived before God knew they would occur, who then conceived of them?

Who then created this original conceiver of evil deeds who somehow existed outside of Gods knowledge for a time?

Who then is responsible for the creation of that which you discern is evil?

And for that matter how all knowing and all powerful is a God that didn't know something would occur?

It seems it really isn't that simple at all.

Kindest regards,
Sentinus

[John T]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Let us sum up the evangelical religion then. Based on the only evan who answered the above questions the answer for evans is all correct, although one did suggest without any reasoning that one or two at least were wrong. I don't know which ones or how they were wrong. Either way BH answered them all correct (sic). So that means...

stem

The point is that you just simply LIKE the answers we give, so you dismiss them out of hand. You create cartoonish meanings of things and vilify the cartoons. That is called straw man argumentation.

Then you erroneously pontificate and chortle at your Pyrrhic victory, saying that you alone are correct. So continue in your deceitful ways stem, and you will continue to make statements that seem to come from the ugly end of a horse instead of from a person of intelligence.

it is obvious to me that you do not want to learn about what we say, because they can not fit into the LDS "shoebox" for theology. then you guys have the audacity to try this garbage on us, saying, "We too are Christians."

BALDERDASH!

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

Good thing God isn't limited by mans simplistic logic.

If evil deeds were conceived before God knew they would occur, who then conceived of them?

No one. They just were.

Who then created this original conceiver of evil deeds who somehow existed outside of Gods knowledge for a time?

All already existed. According to LDS belief there was no time, or no no time however you wish to extend your logic, before all things, beside God, existed. You see there were many eternal things and beings that existed into eternity past along with God.

Who then is responsible for the creation of that which you discern is evil?

no one.

And for that matter how all knowing and all powerful is a God that didn't know something would occur?

huh? That doesn't make sense.

It seems it really isn't that simple at all.

It is that simple.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by John T

The point is that you just simply LIKE the answers we give, so you dismiss them out of hand.

I believe you meant to suggest I simply don't like your answers. That's not it. I like them all. Your answers weren't very helpful...You didn't say where I went wrong you only vaguely said I must be wrong about something. BrianH, disagreed with you by saying the answer to all the questions is correct. I took his answer seriously while yours didn't specify anything for me. I had to go with his.

You create cartoonish meanings of things and vilify the cartoons. That is called straw man argumentation.

This is a great example of what I'm saying. How did I create any straw man, specifically? It seems so far all you have is vague complaints.

Then you erroneously pontificate and chortle at your Pyrrhic victory, saying that you alone are correct. So continue in your deceitful ways stem, and you will continue to make statements that seem to come from the ugly end of a horse instead of from a person of intelligence.

it is obvious to me that you do not want to learn about what we say, because they can not fit into the LDS "shoebox" for theology. then you guys have the audacity to try this garbage on us, saying, "We too are Christians."

BALDERDASH!

An on-topic reply would be fitting. But since you went off about me, and "you guys", I'll consider your response a very good support for my point. Thanks.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

No one. They just were.



All already existed. According to LDS belief there was no time, or no no time however you wish to extend your logic, before all things, beside God, existed. You see there were many eternal things and beings that existed into eternity past along with God.



no one.



huh? That doesn't make sense.



It is that simple.

love,
stem

Originally Posted by Stem

No one. They just were.

So evil just is and has no origination at all in your understanding of LDS theology?

Originally Posted by Stem

All already existed. According to LDS belief there was no time, or no no time however you wish to extend your logic, before all things, beside God, existed. You see there were many eternal things and beings that existed into eternity past along with God.

So in your understanding of LDS theology things such as "evil" co existed with an eternal God eternally? And additionally other "beings" eternally existed as well?

Originally Posted by Stem

no one.

Got it. God did not create everything only some things.

Originally Posted by Stem

huh? That doesn't make sense.

You said: evil deeds were conceived of long before He knew they would occur.

And I asked: how all knowing and all powerful is a God that didn't know something would occur?

It makes sense to me.

Originally Posted by Stem

It is that simple.

It may seem simple to you, but the more you answer the more complicated this all becomes.

For starters answer me this-

In your opinion did God create the intelligence that was Lucifer? Or did this intelligence simply always exist outside and individual from God or the "other beings" you mentioned that coexisted along with eternal "things" such as evil?

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

So evil just is and has no origination at all in your understanding of LDS theology?

So in your understanding of LDS theology things such as "evil" co existed with an eternal God eternally? And additionally other "beings" eternally existed as well?

Yes, other beings eternally existed with God, and evil was not started somewhere along the way...it just is.

Got it. God did not create everything only some things.

Indeed He only created that which he created...and he did not create ex nihilo.

You said: evil deeds were conceived of long before He knew they would occur.

And I asked: how all knowing and all powerful is a God that didn't know something would occur?

It makes sense to me.

If evil deeds existed before He designed this creation, then it is not logical to ***ume He didn't know evil would occur...based on that info alone.

It may seem simple to you, but the more you answer the more complicated this all becomes.

For starters answer me this-

In your opinion did God create the intelligence that was Lucifer? Or did this intelligence simply always exist outside and individual from God or the "other beings" you mentioned that coexisted along with eternal "things" such as evil?

Fair enough, LDS theology is complicated in many respects.

You ask: "In your opinion did God create the intelligence that was Lucifer?"

Intelligence is eternal--was never created. i think that answers your second question too.

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

D&C93:29-30

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Yes, other beings eternally existed with God, and evil was not started somewhere along the way...it just is.



Indeed He only created that which he created...and he did not create ex nihilo.



If evil deeds existed before He designed this creation, then it is not logical to ***ume He didn't know evil would occur...based on that info alone.



Fair enough, LDS theology is complicated in many respects.

You ask: "In your opinion did God create the intelligence that was Lucifer?"

Intelligence is eternal--was never created. i think that answers your second question too.


D&C93:29-30

love,
stem

Originally Posted by Stem

You ask: "In your opinion did God create the intelligence that was Lucifer?"

Intelligence is eternal--was never created. i think that answers your second question too.

So it is not LDS teaching that God created Lucifer?

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

True that, to a certain extent. God formed Lucifer from eternally existing intelligences. We only know intelligences are eternal, and are a fine type of matter.

I say "to a certain extent" because we (LDS) often use create in a way that does not ***ume creation ex nihilo, which tends these days, when referring to God creating, to be the ***umption of the majority view. So you'll hear LDS say God created Lucifer, but by create we do not intend to suggest creation ex nihilo.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

True that, to a certain extent. God formed Lucifer from eternally existing intelligences. We only know intelligences are eternal, and are a fine type of matter.

I say "to a certain extent" because we (LDS) often use create in a way that does not ***ume creation ex nihilo, which tends these days, when referring to God creating, to be the ***umption of the majority view. So you'll hear LDS say God created Lucifer, but by create we do not intend to suggest creation ex nihilo.

love,
stem

So it is accurate to say that God according to LDS theology organized existing intelligences into what many of us call Lucifer. Thus creating Lucifer.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

Its fair to say that without any implication that this organizing was a piecing together by God to form certain characteristics. We do not have the info to know if intelligences differ among individual spirits or not.

love,
stem

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

So it is accurate to say that God according to LDS theology organized existing intelligences into what many of us call Lucifer. Thus creating Lucifer.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

The answer to that question varies depending on who you ask, Sentinus.

I'd like to develop the QUESTION a little more to clarify what you are asking.

Proposition: God organized existing intelligences into what many of us call Lucifer

Let's expound on what you may mean by "existing intelligences"

Question: Is it possible that God, himself, was the "existing intelligence" from which Lucifer was created ?

My Answer: I think so.

The question then becomes: How ?

Here is some more of what I think:

Life doesn't begin at conception, because life doesn't begin. Life continues as each kind of being reproduces however that kind of being reproduces, and we (all men and women on this Earth) are the children of God... including Lucifer, who chose to become wicked after God created him as good.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I got some questions

Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?

***uming all the above is in line with your beliefs lets move on...

God created beings and knew each and every action each being would do throughout eternity, right?

He knew, for instance, that little Russ would tell his mom a lie when he was little, right?

But God, being all-powerful, didn't have to create any beings who would do anything evil right?

Without creating there would be no evil practiced there would only be God, right?

A creature would not do evil things if God first did not create that being out of nothing knowing full well all actions that being would do, right?

God knew which beings would be saved eternally and which beings would be ****ed for eternity before creating any of them, right?

God did not have to create any beings who would be ****ed for eternity, right?

There would be absolutely no suffering, of the worst kind, if God did not create, right?

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

love,
stem

Without freedom, there is no love....

True love is a willing and free love.

The answer to all evil is the cross.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I got some questions

Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?

***uming all the above is in line with your beliefs lets move on...

God created beings and knew each and every action each being would do throughout eternity, right?

He knew, for instance, that little Russ would tell his mom a lie when he was little, right?

But God, being all-powerful, didn't have to create any beings who would do anything evil right?

Without creating there would be no evil practiced there would only be God, right?

A creature would not do evil things if God first did not create that being out of nothing knowing full well all actions that being would do, right?

God knew which beings would be saved eternally and which beings would be ****ed for eternity before creating any of them, right?

God did not have to create any beings who would be ****ed for eternity, right?

There would be absolutely no suffering, of the worst kind, if God did not create, right?

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

love,
stem

In the book of *** the bible deals with this issue...

The answer is that we are to trust God regardless of what we see in this suffering age.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I got some questions

Before creating (ex nihilo) anything God was all there was, correct?

Before God created (ex nihilo) He knew, had to know, that evil things would be practiced, correct?

God being all powerful and able to create anything in any form and with any behavior he wanted, chose to create creatures (like satan) that would do evil things. He certainly didn't have to create Satan, right?

Also before creating (ex nihilo) God knew all the evil acts that would be done, right?

If so, before any being was created, before any evil action could be done, evil ideas originated in the "mind" of God, right?

***uming all the above is in line with your beliefs lets move on...

God created beings and knew each and every action each being would do throughout eternity, right?

He knew, for instance, that little Russ would tell his mom a lie when he was little, right?

But God, being all-powerful, didn't have to create any beings who would do anything evil right?

Without creating there would be no evil practiced there would only be God, right?

A creature would not do evil things if God first did not create that being out of nothing knowing full well all actions that being would do, right?

God knew which beings would be saved eternally and which beings would be ****ed for eternity before creating any of them, right?

God did not have to create any beings who would be ****ed for eternity, right?

There would be absolutely no suffering, of the worst kind, if God did not create, right?

Let us go to this point and see what answers we get.

love,
stem

God was not afraid of evil that would come ...he knew it was not a challenge to him and his plans.

Had God decided, "Oh I better not " then we would always know that "God was afraid"......


Its like the moment God entered into the world ,,,he could have taken his first breath, seen into the future, seen his death on the cross and the scattering of his followers, and decided, "Oh I better not" and went back to heaven.

But the Lord was not afraid of the evil that was about to happen, he knew the evil would not challenge his plans

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

So it is not LDS teaching that God created Lucifer?

Hi Sentinus:

The LDS believe this is the doctrine of the progression of mankind:

1) They were "intelligences" to start with--which are eternal.

2) Spirits were Fathered by God the Father--which the intelligence inhabits.

3) These spirits then inhabit mortal bodies procreated by our earthly mothers and fathers.

4) The spirits then leave the mortal body upon death--and, upon being resurrected-- inhabit a resurrected body.