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Thread: was lucifer created evil?

  1. #1
    stemelbow
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    Default was lucifer created evil?

    Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil? Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

    The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth? That is both our spirits and our physical bodies, but Lucifer was created only as spirit? Why did God decide to create those who would only be spirits and those who would have physical bodies and spirit bodies?

    Looking forward to an enlightening discussion on the topic.

    love,
    stem

  2. #2
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil? Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

    The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth? That is both our spirits and our physical bodies, but Lucifer was created only as spirit? Why did God decide to create those who would only be spirits and those who would have physical bodies and spirit bodies?

    Looking forward to an enlightening discussion on the topic.

    love,
    stem
    Some good questions, Stem.

    Did God infuse satan with his particular appe***es, p***ions, and desires that guided his own free will?

  3. #3
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Some good questions, Stem.

    Did God infuse satan with his particular appe***es, p***ions, and desires that guided his own free will?
    If you take the mainstream Christian faith seriously and then follow it to its logical conclusion, He had to have. God created Lucifer out of nothing and knew what Lucifer would become, if not already evil when first created. He didn't have to create a wholly evil creature, afterall.

    love,
    stem

  4. #4
    Bat-Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    If you take the mainstream Christian faith seriously and then follow it to its logical conclusion, He had to have.
    He had to have ?

    God had to infuse Satan with his particular appe***es, p***ions, and desires that guided his own free will?

    God had to have created Satan with a desire to be evil ?

    Heh, there you go again, stem, misunderstanding mainstream Christian beliefs.

    Mainstream Christians believe that when God created Satan, orginally, Satan was good, and they believe Satan later became evil because God gave Satan the power to choose to be either good or evil, and Satan chose to be evil.

    God didn't give Satan his particular appe***e for evil, or his p***ions for evil, or his desires that guided his own free will choice to do things contrary to the will of God. That was all Satan's doing, with God simply giving Satan the power to choose to be however he wanted to be, including the power to become evil if Satan really wanted to become evil, which he did.

    ... and yes, stem, what I am saying is what mainstream Christians really believe, on this issue, as well as what we (LDS) believe, on this issue.

    God created Lucifer out of nothing and knew what Lucifer would become, if not already evil when first created. He didn't have to create a wholly evil creature, afterall.
    Right. All God had to do was give Satan the power to choose to become evil, if he wanted to be evil, and he also gave all of us that same kind of power.
    Last edited by Bat-Man; 11-10-2009 at 11:22 AM.

  5. #5
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Man View Post
    God didn't give Satan his particular appe***e for evil, or his p***ions for evil, or his desires that guided his own free will choice to do things contrary to the will of God.
    ---So Satan was the ORIGINATOR of all the evil that came into being in the universe? Satan was an uncaused cause of something? I thought Reformationists believe that the ONLY uncaused cause of ANYTHING is GOD.

    That was all Satan's doing, with God simply giving Satan the power to choose to be however he wanted to be, including the power to become evil if Satan really wanted to become evil, which he did.
    ---Do Reformationists believe that God's creations have the power to change the outcome of God's intended agenda? Do God's creations have veto power over the decrees of a deity who is defined as being omnipotent? If Satan decided to stop being the "very good" creation that God originally created him to be, then did God REALLY intend for Satan to be and remain good? But Satan frustrated God's intended plan?

  6. #6
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil?
    To do good. You in the image of God would create a child to do evil?

    Was Lucifer immediately after creation good?
    Yes.

    If so when, specifically, did he become evil?
    No chronology but this is when I believe we believe it happened:

    IS14:13 You said in your heart,
    "I will ascend to heaven;
    I will raise my throne
    above the stars of God;
    I will sit enthroned on the mount of ***embly,
    on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

    I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
    I will make myself like the Most High."
    "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
    To the recesses of the pit

    The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth?
    Why? Don't rightly know but suspect it has to do with verses like this that describe how we are taken from the womb, how we were known in the womb, relationship in the womb as it were but really not before, Psalm 71:
    6By You I have been sustained from my birth;
    You are He who took me from my mother's womb;
    My praise is continually of You.

    That is both our spirits and our physical bodies, but Lucifer was created only as spirit?
    Lucifer was an angel - a ministering spirit as it were. Why God made two kinds of life with personalities that are accountable and subject to judgment I do not not know. Neither is it a salvation issue.

    Why did God decide to create those who would only be spirits and those who would have physical bodies and spirit bodies?
    Spirits do not have bodies Luke 24:38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?

    "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

    And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

    Looking forward to an enlightening discussion on the topic.

    love,
    stem
    That should get 'er started.

    In Him and In Love,

    MacG
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  7. #7
    Bat-Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    ---So Satan was the ORIGINATOR of all the evil that came into being in the universe?
    In their perspective, yes.

    In their perspective, Satan was the very first person God created who chose to become evil, after God had created him as a good person, and ever since Satan became evil Satan has been trying to get other people to be evil, too.

    That is what mainstream Christians believe, collectively, jeff.

    Of course, we (LDS) know that Satan wasn't the very first person who became evil, because there was no FIRST evil person, just as there was no FIRST good person, in the eternal perspective, but we're not talking about what we (LDS) believe now, are we.

    ---Do Reformationists believe that God's creations have the power to change the outcome of God's intended agenda?
    No.

    They believe Satan wins a few battles, sometimes, but God will win the war in the end.

    Do God's creations have veto power over the decrees of a deity who is defined as being omnipotent?
    No, not in their perspective.

    They do believe we have the power to choose to do evil, if we want to, but they believe God's decrees always remain in force, even then, and that at some point those who choose to do evil will be punished for their evil actions.

    If Satan decided to stop being the "very good" creation that God originally created him to be, then did God REALLY intend for Satan to be and remain good?
    Yes, and Satan chose and still chooses to be evil, anyway.

    But Satan frustrated God's intended plan?
    No, not really.

    Satan wins a few battles, sometimes, but God will win the war in the end.

  8. #8
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Man View Post
    He had to have ?

    God had to infuse Satan with his particular appe***es, p***ions, and desires that guided his own free will?

    God had to have created Satan with a desire to be evil ?

    Heh, there you go again, stem, misunderstanding mainstream Christian beliefs.
    I said God had to have created lucifer out of nothing to be what he was. How else did he become what he is without God first conceiving of how Lucifer would turn out? Its teh same for you Batman, God had to have created you with the particular appe***es and p***ions that influence the way you will eventually turn out, all according to the logical conclusions of their beliefs.

    Mainstream Christians believe that when God created Satan, orginally, Satan was good, and they believe Satan later became evil because God gave Satan the power to choose to be either good or evil, and Satan chose to be evil.
    I'm asking when he became evil. What caused him to become evil.

    God didn't give Satan his particular appe***e for evil, or his p***ions for evil, or his desires that guided his own free will choice to do things contrary to the will of God. That was all Satan's doing, with God simply giving Satan the power to choose to be however he wanted to be, including the power to become evil if Satan really wanted to become evil, which he did.

    ... and yes, stem, what I am saying is what mainstream Christians really believe, on this issue, as well as what we (LDS) believe, on this issue.


    Right. All God had to do was give Satan the power to choose to become evil, if he wanted to be evil, and he also gave all of us that same kind of power.
    But you seem to be misunderstanding the main thrust of my argument. God conceived of what satan would become long before he created him out of nothing, right? Or would you say mainstream christians would deny this?

    love,
    stem

  9. #9
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Man View Post
    In their perspective, yes.

    In their perspective, Satan was the very first person God created who chose to become evil, after God had created him as a good person, and ever since Satan became evil Satan has been trying to get other people to be evil, too.

    That is what mainstream Christians believe, collectively, jeff.

    Of course, we (LDS) know that Satan wasn't the very first person who became evil, because there was no FIRST evil person, just as there was no FIRST good person, in the eternal perspective, but we're not talking about what we (LDS) believe now, are we.
    But satan only became what God initially thought of what he would become. God created him out of nothing, Batman. If God knew satan would choose evil, then by creating him, he also knew what particular qualities satan needed to become evil.

    love,
    stem

  10. #10
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    To do good.
    How do you know that?

    You in the image of God would create a child to do evil?
    Me? No. I don't believe in creation ex nihilo.

    Yes.
    Again how do you know that?


    No chronology but this is when I believe we believe it happened:

    IS14:13 You said in your heart,
    "I will ascend to heaven;
    I will raise my throne
    above the stars of God;
    I will sit enthroned on the mount of ***embly,
    on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

    I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
    I will make myself like the Most High."
    "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
    To the recesses of the pit
    But when was this? Was it after God created Him? Was it after God created the earth?

    Why? Don't rightly know but suspect it has to do with verses like this that describe how we are taken from the womb, how we were known in the womb, relationship in the womb as it were but really not before, Psalm 71:
    6By You I have been sustained from my birth;
    You are He who took me from my mother's womb;
    My praise is continually of You.
    Can you clarify? I ahve no idea how this answers my question.

    Lucifer was an angel - a ministering spirit as it were. Why God made two kinds of life with personalities that are accountable and subject to judgment I do not not know. Neither is it a salvation issue.
    How do you know this?

    Spirits do not have bodies Luke 24:38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?

    "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

    And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.
    So we do not have spirits? Are we not both spirit and body?

    love,
    stem

  11. #11
    Bat-Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    I said God had to have created lucifer out of nothing to be what he was.
    Are you still trying to p*** off what you're saying as what mainstream Christians believe, stem, or is that what you believe we (LDS) believe ?

    I'm getting confused here.

    SOMEBODY help me !!!

    AAAAaaaaaahhhhhh !!!

    How else did he become what he is without God first conceiving of how Lucifer would turn out?
    You really don't understand the kind of power God gave to us, do you, stem.

    God created all of us to be good, and all of us were good when God created us.

    God then said something like:

    Okay, now. Go ahead and do whatever you want to do.

    ... while also telling us what he wanted us to do.

    Sometime soon after that point we then had a choice.

    Do it God's way, or do it some other way.

    Satan chose some other way, stem.

    Evil is the opposite of God's way.

    Its the same for you Batman, God had to have created you with the particular appe***es and p***ions that influence the way you will eventually turn out, all according to the logical conclusions of their beliefs.
    No, stem. You still just don't get it.

    I'm asking when he became evil. What caused him to become evil.
    He became evil when he chose to do the opposite of God's will.

    That's both when and what caused him to become evil, stem.

    For crying out loud, try acting like you know what evil is.

    But you seem to be misunderstanding the main thrust of my argument. God conceived of what satan would become long before he created him out of nothing, right? Or would you say mainstream christians would deny this?
    I'll say it like this, this time.

    God knew all of the possible choices that any person he created could make.

    He knew it all, stem, and he still knows everything.

    God knew that if someone who he created didn't do things God's way, that person would do things some other way, which wasn't God's way, and God knew about all of the other possible choices that a person could possibly make, including what a person would be like if he became his total opposite.

  12. #12
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Man View Post
    Are you still trying to p*** off what you're saying as what mainstream Christians believe, stem, or is that what you believe we (LDS) believe ?
    I am suggesting that according to the logical conclusions of their beliefs.

    You really don't understand the kind of power God gave to us, do you, stem.
    I do. What I don't get is how someone can believe the mainstream Christian dogma and be comfortable with how ultimately awful it is.

    He became evil when he chose to do the opposite of God's will.

    That's both when and what caused him to become evil, stem.
    But, according to their beliefs, or at least the logical conclusion of their beliefs, God created satan knowing how.when and under what circumstances satan would become evil. Since God created satan out of nothing, He created every single individual choice that makes satan unique. It surely has to be that way, according to the logical conclusions of their beliefs.

    I'll say it like this, this time.

    God knew all of the possible choices that any person he created could make.

    He knew it all, stem, and he still knows everything.

    God knew that if someone who he created didn't do things God's way, that person would do things some other way, which wasn't God's way, and God knew about all of the other possible choices that a person could possibly make, including what a person would be like if he became his total opposite.
    But there's something about this your leaving off or not considering. God created each person, including satan, out of nothing. He knew before actually coming up with the idea of a satan what satan would be. Therefore it stands to reason that satan only became evil because God created him to be that way or to turn out that way.

    love,
    stem

  13. #13
    Bat-Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Since God created satan out of nothing, He created every single individual choice that makes satan unique. It surely has to be that way, according to the logical conclusions of their beliefs.
    Try looking at it this way, stem.

    It's either God's way, or nothing.

    That's not totally true, but equating evil with nothing may help you a little.

    Try thinking of EVIL as basically NOTHING, or an ABSENCE of good.

    Evil is basically like darkness, which is an ABSENCE of light.

    God doesn't put evil within a person, as if to say, here, have a little of this.

    Evil is the result of rejecting God, or what has to offer.

    Can you really not relate to what I am saying ???

    But there's something about this your leaving off or not considering. God created each person, including satan, out of nothing. He knew before actually coming up with the idea of a satan what satan would be. Therefore it stands to reason that satan only became evil because God created him to be that way or to turn out that way.
    No, stem. It really didn't happen that way, in either their mainstream Christian perspective, or our (LDS) perspective.

  14. #14
    stemelbow
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    Thanks for playing, Batman. I get your point. I'll await further discussions with actually mainstream Chrsitians on the matter, since it seems we're jsut talking past each other.

    love,
    stem

  15. #15
    Bat-Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Thanks for playing, Batman. I get your point.
    I see you saying you do, but do you, really ?

    I'd like to see some evidence that you really do.

  16. #16
    stemelbow
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    Same here, batman. Same here. But since we've been trying the past couple of days, I'll concede that we must be talking past each other. With that, I'll let it go and hope for future discussions with real mainstream Christians.

    love,
    stem

  17. #17
    Bat-Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Same here, batman. Same here. But since we've been trying the past couple of days, I'll concede that we must be talking past each other. With that, I'll let it go and hope for future discussions with real mainstream Christians.

    love,
    stem
    FYI, I never had my named removed from the records of the last church I attended before I became a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so, technically, I am still on record as a mainstream Christian.

    Pretty cool, huh.

  18. #18
    stemelbow
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    Yeah. So when they all complain that LDS are inflating our numbers, they are only whining about that which they do, again.

    love,
    stem

  19. #19
    Bat-Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Yeah. So when they all complain that LDS are inflating our numbers, they are only whining about that which they do, again.

    love,
    stem
    Yes, but more to the point, I am a real mainstream Christian, as well as a real member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    So, do you have any other questions you'd like to ask a real mainstream Christian ?
    Last edited by Bat-Man; 11-10-2009 at 03:45 PM.

  20. #20
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Man View Post
    Yes, but more to the point, I am a real mainstream Christian, as well as a real member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    So, do you have any other questions you'd like to ask a real mainstream Christian ?
    Not quite Bat you have told me that you believe the idea that people are becoming divine.. That is NOT mainstream Christianity.. IHS jim

  21. #21
    Bat-Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Banta View Post
    Not quite Bat you have told me that you believe the idea that people are becoming divine.. That is NOT mainstream Christianity.. IHS jim
    I think you're confusing me with someone else, Jim.

    I've never told you that people are becoming divine.

    All men and women were divine from the first moment of our birth (creation) in heaven, and all that remains for us now is to become like either our Father in heaven, or Satan, or to remain somewhere in between those two extremes.

  22. #22
    James Banta
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Man View Post
    I think you're confusing me with someone else, Jim.

    I've never told you that people are becoming divine.

    All men and women were divine from the first moment of our birth (creation) in heaven, and all that remains for us now is to become like either our Father in heaven, or Satan, or to remain somewhere in between those two extremes.
    This is more like what I would expect from a "good mormon" You just set the scripture behind..
    Zech 12:1
    The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.


    This verse speaks to the creation of the heavens and the earth, and then it says where the spirit of man was created.. WITHIN HIM! If there was no physical body just what is the "within him" within? You can't create the spirit of man within the spirit of man can you? Did man exist physically in the "pre-existence"? What does the Church say is ONE important reason to come to this world? When a baby dies what do the members of the mormon church say was the reason it was born at all? TO GET A BODY!!! Sorry but the Bible makes it clear in this one verse that Mormonism is a false teaching that there was no pre-existence a main doctrinal point of the mormon gospel.. IHS jim

  23. #23
    Senior Member MacG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    How do you know that?
    The angels are created to be ministering spirits, Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation? does not sound like they were created to do evil.

    Me? No. I don't believe in creation ex nihilo.
    Ah, so where did he get the stuff to do it? Reveation 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

    Again how do you know that?
    The angels are created to be ministering spirits. Presumably that is what he did before his ego got the best of him.

    But when was this? Was it after God created Him? Was it after God created the earth?
    No, I do not know when that happened but before he tempted Eve would be a safe bet.

    Can you clarify? I ahve no idea how this answers my question.
    Pslam 102:18 Let this be written for a future generation,
    that a people not yet created may praise the LORD.

    Pslam 139:13
    For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

    How do you know this?
    IS14:13 You said in your heart,
    "I will ascend to heaven;
    I will raise my throne
    above the stars of God;
    I will sit enthroned on the mount of ***embly,
    on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

    I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
    I will make myself like the Most High."
    "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
    To the recesses of the pit

    So we do not have spirits? Are we not both spirit and body?
    Never said we weren't both, where'd that come from?

    love,
    stem
    Blessings,

    MacG
    "Said I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm better, better than I used to be, I'm gettin better all the time" - Blind Boys of Alabama Ephesians 4:22-24 NASB ..."that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth"

  24. #24
    stemelbow
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    The angels are created to be ministering spirits, Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation? does not sound like they were created to do evil.
    When did the devil act as a ministering spirit? What evidence do you have that he was at one time a ministering spirit?

    Ah, so where did he get the stuff to do it? Reveation 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."
    Its eternally existing.

    The angels are created to be ministering spirits. Presumably that is what he did before his ego got the best of him.
    What ministering did he do? If he was at one time a ministering spirit then there must be something saying he ministered at some point. if he did not minister then it seems he never did any good.

    No, I do not know when that happened but before he tempted Eve would be a safe bet.
    So was that before God created the world/earth?

    Pslam 102:18 Let this be written for a future generation,
    that a people not yet created may praise the LORD.

    Pslam 139:13
    For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
    Okay. I don't see any of this specifically saying that our spirits did not previously exist though.

    IS14:13 You said in your heart,
    "I will ascend to heaven;
    I will raise my throne
    above the stars of God;
    I will sit enthroned on the mount of ***embly,
    on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.

    I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
    I will make myself like the Most High."
    "Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
    To the recesses of the pit
    Please realize I accept the Biblical p***ages but i do not read into them your ***umptions. So quoting the p***ages without explanation only helps my case, if you ask me. So I'm asking how do you know that God making two kinds of life and that the devil was made to be a "ministering spirit" are not salvation issues?

    And how do you know is not what God created him to be? It seems since God knew he would seek to replace God before creating him out of nothing, long before eve was tempted, it seems, shows that God made him as one destined to do evil for a reason. And that God made him out of nothing, conceiving of hw he would be evil and went ahead and created him to be evil. I see no other conclusion to make, logically speaking. You?

    Never said we weren't both, where'd that come from?
    I asked why did God create us with spirits and physical bodies and you're answer was saying that spirits do not have bodies. So it came from your attempt at answering my question.

    love,
    stem

  25. #25
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil? Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

    The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth? That is both our spirits and our physical bodies, but Lucifer was created only as spirit? Why did God decide to create those who would only be spirits and those who would have physical bodies and spirit bodies?

    Looking forward to an enlightening discussion on the topic.

    love,
    stem
    Chirp...chirp...chirp...

    Either God created the concept of opposites (good vs evil) or these concepts have existed as long as God Himself has.

    I've asked questions on this topic before. I got pretty much the same response:

    chirp...chirp...chirp...

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