Page 2 of 20 FirstFirst 12345612 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 498

Thread: was lucifer created evil?

  1. #26
    Father_JD
    Guest

    Default

    Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil?
    You already know the answer, stem. WHY are you playing your little Mormon reindeer games?


    Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

    You know the answer to this question as well. NO ONE KNOWS WHEN Lucifer rebelled against God...but it's generally ***umed it was BEFORE the creation of the world and all contained thereon.


    The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth?

    Why don't you BELIEVE Gen. 2, stem? The answer you're supposedly looking for is right there and elsewhere IN THE BIBLE.


    That is both our spirits and our physical bodies, but Lucifer was created only as spirit?

    The angels are spirit beings, stem. This IS what the Bible teaches ya know? Why do you think it's somehow logically necessary for angels to be created with physical bodies as well as humans? You're Mormon indoctrination is showing, minus any reasoned thinking here.



    Why did God decide to create those who would only be spirits and those who would have physical bodies and spirit bodies?

    Because it suited the SOVEREIGN creator of the universe, stem. WHY do you second-guess God Himself? Don't you see you're treading on dangerous ground here??


    Looking forward to an enlightening discussion on the topic.
    Frankly, I don't think you are at all.

  2. #27
    Sentinus
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil? Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

    The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth? That is both our spirits and our physical bodies, but Lucifer was created only as spirit? Why did God decide to create those who would only be spirits and those who would have physical bodies and spirit bodies?

    Looking forward to an enlightening discussion on the topic.

    love,
    stem
    Then perhaps you should enter your concerns in the correct forum...

    I suggest to all posters that since these forums aren't moderated that posters who attend this forum to discuss Mormonism simply ignore any post that is generated in this forum regarding "Mainstream Christianity" and it's theology And of course offer a friendly suggestion that the person responsible for the OP recognize the forum they are in and post accordingly.

    Kind regards,
    Sentinus

  3. #28
    stemelbow
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    You already know the answer, stem. WHY are you playing your little Mormon reindeer games?
    So is your answer you don't know?

    You know the answer to this question as well. NO ONE KNOWS WHEN Lucifer rebelled against God...but it's generally ***umed it was BEFORE the creation of the world and all contained thereon.
    So was Lucifer the first to be created?

    Why don't you BELIEVE Gen. 2, stem? The answer you're supposedly looking for is right there and elsewhere IN THE BIBLE.
    I do. Gen. 2 does not answer my question. Can you clarify?

    The angels are spirit beings, stem. This IS what the Bible teaches ya know? Why do you think it's somehow logically necessary for angels to be created with physical bodies as well as humans? You're Mormon indoctrination is showing, minus any reasoned thinking here.
    Show me where angels are exclusively spirit? Show me where it tells us that these spirit bodies won't at some future time gain physical bodies.

    Because it suited the SOVEREIGN creator of the universe, stem. WHY do you second-guess God Himself? Don't you see you're treading on dangerous ground here??
    So its his mystery? THat's the answer?

    Frankly, I don't think you are at all.
    Of course you have to ***ume such. It'll be your way out when you religion looks foolish again.

    love,
    stem

  4. #29
    stemelbow
    Guest

    Default

    So are you ***uming this particular forum cannot include discussions, from an LDS standpoint, of the beliefs of those who are criticizing LDS? So LDS cannot have a balanced discussion--putting under the microscope the beliefs of those who are criticizing to see if the criticisms of LDS hold up? And is it not discussing LDS beliefs by defining how the criticizers differ in belief, essentially?

    I don't know what you're so afriad of. Sounds silly.

    When I peak around at the other forums here, it seems rather empty. Why should we not be able to discuss things pertaining to LDS here? Is there somethign to fear?

    love,
    stem

  5. #30
    Sentinus
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    So are you ***uming this particular forum cannot include discussions, from an LDS standpoint, of the beliefs of those who are criticizing LDS? So LDS cannot have a balanced discussion--putting under the microscope the beliefs of those who are criticizing to see if the criticisms of LDS hold up? And is it not discussing LDS beliefs by defining how the criticizers differ in belief, essentially?

    I don't know what you're so afriad of. Sounds silly.

    When I peak around at the other forums here, it seems rather empty. Why should we not be able to discuss things pertaining to LDS here? Is there somethign to fear?

    love,
    stem

    Yes of course you would see me as "afraid" or having "fear", this would suit you real agenda in posting OP's like the one here. Like I have said feel free to ignore me, but I will not cease my efforts to get LDS posters to stay on topic in THIS forum..

    Perhaps you could take the time to rewrite your OP's to contrast the two theologies instead? Then you would be on topic.. IMO of course.

    Regards,
    Sentinus

  6. #31
    stemelbow
    Guest

    Default

    Fine I'll leave you to your opinion. Surely you'll get some of your co-religionists to jump on board so you all can avoid having to deal with the LDS posts. Many mainstreamers already do avoid our posts, questions, and arguments. NO big difference there.

    My agenda is that we ought to have a balanced discussion. I suppose if you're afraid to discuss your own beliefs, like Russell and others here, then it is pretty much in opposition to my agenda.

    I hope you come around.

    love,
    stem

  7. #32
    Sentinus
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Fine I'll leave you to your opinion. Surely you'll get some of your co-religionists to jump on board so you all can avoid having to deal with the LDS posts. Many mainstreamers already do avoid our posts, questions, and arguments. NO big difference there.

    My agenda is that we ought to have a balanced discussion. I suppose if you're afraid to discuss your own beliefs, like Russell and others here, then it is pretty much in opposition to my agenda.

    I hope you come around.

    love,
    stem
    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    Fine I'll leave you to your opinion.
    And I to yours, but do try and stay on topic, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stem
    Surely you'll get some of your co-religionists to jump on board so you all can avoid having to deal with the LDS posts. Many mainstreamers already do avoid our posts, questions, and arguments. NO big difference there.
    I hope they do, but not because of the nefarious reasons you imply here about good, decent people who come here to post about Mormonism. The difference between you and me is that you see this as a fight, and not just an exchange of ideas. Your illogical ***umption that silence equals avoidance of "hard questions" is false. Most people come here to discuss Mormonism and are not interested in debating your misconception regarding "Mainstream Christianity". So they just ignore them. Hence my reasoning for speaking up. Silence seems to only reinforce your beliefs and this is counterproductive to the intent of most Non LDS posters who are posting here. In essence I believe I am pointing out the Elephant in the room, nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stem
    My agenda is that we ought to have a balanced discussion.
    .

    Then do so by including the LDS perspective and doctrine that you believe refutes and or supports your ascertations regarding "Mainstream Christian" thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stem
    I suppose if you're afraid to discuss your own beliefs, like Russell and others here, then it is pretty much in opposition to my agenda.
    More fallacious and illogical conclusions. You now equate silence to "fear", this type of at***ude regarding those you hopefully hope to serve and educate is clearly counterproductive to building bridges of communication and tolerance. Most posters here come here to discuss Mormonism NOT your personal misconceptions of "Mainstream Christian" thought. You must ***ume the best in people you wish to serve, and love those that you believe are your enemy. And of course as many LDS people have so often said go to the appropriate source for information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stem
    I hope you come around.
    As do I.

    Regards,
    Sentinus
    Last edited by Sentinus; 11-12-2009 at 01:28 PM.

  8. #33
    Father_JD
    Guest

    Default

    Originally Posted by Father_JD
    You already know the answer, stem. WHY are you playing your little Mormon reindeer games?

    So is your answer you don't know?
    Hardly. You know full well that God created Lucifer to do GOOD. So why the little Mormon reindeer game as if you don't know the answer?


    Quote:
    You know the answer to this question as well. NO ONE KNOWS WHEN Lucifer rebelled against God...but it's generally ***umed it was BEFORE the creation of the world and all contained thereon.

    So was Lucifer the first to be created?

    No one knows. The Bible doesn't give an answer for your "poser". And don't think for one second your phoni-Moroni-latter-day-revelation knows any better.


    Quote:
    Why don't you BELIEVE Gen. 2, stem? The answer you're supposedly looking for is right there and elsewhere IN THE BIBLE.

    I do. Gen. 2 does not answer my question. Can you clarify?
    It does answer your question. You just don't like the answer: Man's body and spirit/soul were CO-CREATED.


    Quote:
    The angels are spirit beings, stem. This IS what the Bible teaches ya know? Why do you think it's somehow logically necessary for angels to be created with physical bodies as well as humans? Your Mormon indoctrination is showing, minus any reasoned thinking here.

    Show me where angels are exclusively spirit? Show me where it tells us that these spirit bodies won't at some future time gain physical bodies.
    I can't prove a negative, stem. Why don't you furnish us with just one exception where an angel was FLESH AND BONE, huh? Hebrews 1 is clear: Angels are SPIRITS just as God the Father Himself is SPIRIT.


    Quote:
    Because it suited the SOVEREIGN creator of the universe, stem. WHY do you second-guess God Himself? Don't you see you're treading on dangerous ground here??

    So its his mystery? THat's the answer?
    No, it's not properly labeled as a "mystery", whereas the Incarnation IS. The answer? GOD CHOSE NOT TO. Why is that so hard for Mormons to understand, stem? Is it because you know you can't reconcile Mormon beliefs with the Bible?


    Quote:
    Frankly, I don't think you are at all.

    Of course you have to ***ume such. It'll be your way out when you religion looks foolish again.

    Ri-i-i-i-i-ight. I'm not the one who "sustains" as a "prophet" a two-bit con man who buried his face in his hat with his magic rock, stem.

  9. #34
    stemelbow
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Originally Posted by Father_JD
    Hardly. You know full well that God created Lucifer to do GOOD. So why the little Mormon reindeer game as if you don't know the answer?
    What good did he do, JD?

    No one knows. The Bible doesn't give an answer for your "poser". And don't think for one second your phoni-Moroni-latter-day-revelation knows any better.
    Surely my beliefs are different. We don't accept creation ex nihilo JD.

    It does answer your question. You just don't like the answer: Man's body and spirit/soul were CO-CREATED.
    Co-created? What's that mean? created together? That's not what Gen. 2 says.

    I can't prove a negative, stem. Why don't you furnish us with just one exception where an angel was FLESH AND BONE, huh? Hebrews 1 is clear: Angels are SPIRITS just as God the Father Himself is SPIRIT.
    Well of course angels have spirits, but so do you JD...so does Jesus too.

    No, it's not properly labeled as a "mystery", whereas the Incarnation IS. The answer? GOD CHOSE NOT TO. Why is that so hard for Mormons to understand, stem? Is it because you know you can't reconcile Mormon beliefs with the Bible?
    But why did God choose not to? i guess mystery won't work for you, so what word would you prefer?

    Ri-i-i-i-i-ight. I'm not the one who "sustains" as a "prophet" a two-bit con man who buried his face in his hat with his magic rock, stem.
    no kdding, your's is the religion in which god himself is the one who caused the downfall of his own creations by conceiving of the occurance long before He created. the one in which lucifer, though, created supposedly "good" because evil long before he created the earth.

    love,
    stem

  10. #35
    nrajeff
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Hardly. You know full well that God created Lucifer to do GOOD.
    --Then here is another poser for ya FJD: What is God's track record like, in the "Created to be good and REMAINED good" department? What percentage of the things God created, declared to be good, and intended to STAY good, actually DID stay good?
    Man's body and spirit/soul were CO-CREATED.
    --Simultaneously? Ex nihilo? Do you believe that God is not finished creating, then? And which person of the Trinity is doing this ongoing creating? Your buddies say that it's JESUS who created everything that has been or ever will be created. Are your buddies correct? Or do they have a false theology?

    The angels are spirit beings, stem.
    --But spirits are invisible, according you guys. Yet people have seen angels. How does that work?

    I'm not the one who "sustains" as a "prophet" a two-bit con man who buried his face in his hat with his magic rock, stem.
    ---How does one plagiarize hundreds of pages of text while one is in a dark room with one's eyes covered? Name ONE other time that feat has been accomplished, if you think Smith was just a common (you said "two-bit") con man.

  11. #36
    Father_JD
    Guest

    Default

    Originally Posted by Father_JD
    Hardly. You know full well that God created Lucifer to do GOOD.

    --Then here is another poser for ya FJD: What is God's track record like, in the "Created to be good and REMAINED good" department?...
    ALL of the angels who refused to follow after Satan's rebellion.


    What percentage of the things God created, declared to be good, and intended to STAY good, actually DID stay good?

    There are infinitely MORE angels created than humans (check the descriptions of the vast numbers of them as listed in the Bible), so the greatest majority actually DID stay good, jeff.

    Quote:
    Man's body and spirit/soul were CO-CREATED.

    --Simultaneously? Ex nihilo? Do you believe that God is not finished creating, then? And which person of the Trinity is doing this ongoing creating? Your buddies say that it's JESUS who created everything that has been or ever will be created. Are your buddies correct? Or do they have a false theology?
    Interesting SPECULATIONS, jeff. Have you come to the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin yet?


    Quote:
    The angels are spirit beings, stem.

    --But spirits are invisible, according you guys. Yet people have seen angels. How does that work?
    They are by NATURE, invisible, yes. I don't know "how it works" that human eyes have sometimes beheld them, jeff. Maybe ya gotta ask God in prayer so you can get a warm-fuzzy as to "how"!


    Quote:
    I'm not the one who "sustains" as a "prophet" a two-bit con man who buried his face in his hat with his magic rock, stem.

    ---How does one plagiarize hundreds of pages of text while one is in a dark room with one's eyes covered? Name ONE other time that feat has been accomplished, if you think Smith was just a common (you said "two-bit") con man.

    Pffft. Apparently you've never talked to Muslims, have you Jeff? Their big "apologetic" that Mohammed couldn't have written the Koran was because he was pretty much illiterate and the Koran was written in beautiful Arabic.

    Sound familiar NOW?? Oddly reminiscent of Mormon claims for the poorly-educated Joseph Smith, huh?

  12. #37
    nrajeff
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    ALL of the angels who refused to follow after Satan's rebellion.
    ---So that is your answer to the question about God's track record---67% of the angels stayed good, and ZERO % of us mortal humans did, right? What grade does earn God? In the angels dept., a C. In the humans dept., an F.

    There are infinitely MORE angels created than humans (check the descriptions of the vast numbers of them as listed in the Bible), so the greatest majority actually DID stay good, jeff.
    ---Whatever the total number is, only 2/3 of them stayed good, right? Resulting in a C grade. Mediocre.

    Interesting SPECULATIONS, jeff.
    ---Yeah, YOUR speculation that a person's spirit is created at the same moment his/her body is created....that speculation is interesting. And incorrect.

    They are by NATURE, invisible, yes. I don't know "how it works" that human eyes have sometimes beheld them, jeff. Maybe ya gotta ask God in prayer so you can get a warm-fuzzy as to "how"!
    ---Dang, I thought that going to Evangelical Seminary for 3 years might provide me with the answer.

    Pffft. Apparently you've never talked to Muslims, have you Jeff?
    ---I have listened to Pres. Obama. Does that count?

    Their big "apologetic" that Mohammed couldn't have written the Koran was because he was pretty much illiterate and the Koran was written in beautiful Arabic.
    ---Apples and oranges comparison. It's YOUR claim that Smith dictated 400 pages of text while in a dark room, his face buried in a hat the whole time....and that the resulting 400 pages are actually PLAGIARIZED material. So who ELSE has done that? How "2-bit" IS such a feat, really?

  13. #38
    Father_JD
    Guest

    Default

    I thought you believed in "Free Agency", jeff?? What happened? It's Mormon belief that Lucifer, the angels who rebelled, ALL had the capacity to do what they did because of FREE AGENCY, so why do you continue to belabor this point about God's supposed "track record"??

    Where does that leave the Mormon deity who's a helpless schmuck?

  14. #39
    Father_JD
    Guest

    Default

    Originally Posted by Father_JD
    Hardly. You know full well that God created Lucifer to do GOOD. So why the little Mormon reindeer game as if you don't know the answer?

    What good did he do, JD?
    He was in charge of the musical worship of God in Heaven. Your biblical ignorance is showing. I guess you didn't know that his name meant, "Light-Bearer" either, meaning he was perhaps the most beautiful of God's angelic creation??


    Quote:
    No one knows. The Bible doesn't give an answer for your "poser". And don't think for one second your phoni-Moroni-latter-day-revelation knows any better.

    Surely my beliefs are different. We don't accept creation ex nihilo JD.
    I'm sorry your weak godlet you esteem as "God", can only work with eternal "pre-existent matter", which MEANS MATTER IS AS ETERNAL AS HE IS. Nevermind that's illogical....you believe it 'cause LD$, Inc tells you to believe that.


    Quote:
    It does answer your question. You just don't like the answer: Man's body and spirit/soul were CO-CREATED.

    Co-created? What's that mean? created together? That's not what Gen. 2 says.

    No, in fact Gen. 2 completely CONTRADICTS the Mormon belief of "eternal spirit children" being given fleshy tabernacles, doesn't it?


    Quote:
    I can't prove a negative, stem. Why don't you furnish us with just one exception where an angel was FLESH AND BONE, huh? Hebrews 1 is clear: Angels are SPIRITS just as God the Father Himself is SPIRIT.

    Well of course angels have spirits, but so do you JD...so does Jesus too.
    That's NOT what the Bible teaches and you're yet again guilty of foisting Mormon belief over the Biblcal text. Like I said, furnish ONE example where Angels have FLESH AND BONE, ok? Either put up or shut up, stem.


    Quote:
    No, it's not properly labeled as a "mystery", whereas the Incarnation IS. The answer? GOD CHOSE NOT TO. Why is that so hard for Mormons to understand, stem? Is it because you know you can't reconcile Mormon beliefs with the Bible?

    But why did God choose not to? i guess mystery won't work for you, so what word would you prefer?

    Only GOD KNOWS, stem. "Mystery" doesn't work because it isn't a mystery: God created angels and spirit beings, He created humans as flesh and spirit. It's REALLY that simple when one isn't trying to reconcile Mormon dogma with the Bible.


    Quote:
    Ri-i-i-i-i-ight. I'm not the one who "sustains" as a "prophet" a two-bit con man who buried his face in his hat with his magic rock, stem.

    no kdding, your's is the religion in which god himself is the one who caused the downfall of his own creations by conceiving of the occurance long before He created. the one in which lucifer, though, created supposedly "good" because evil long before he created the earth.

    I keep tellin' you, stem. God did NOT cause the downfall. Adam did it all by his little lonesome with Eve. Obviously you're only capable of STRAW-MAN illustrations.

  15. #40
    stemelbow
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    He was in charge of the musical worship of God in Heaven. Your biblical ignorance is showing. I guess you didn't know that his name meant, "Light-Bearer" either, meaning he was perhaps the most beautiful of God's angelic creation?
    What? He's got a good voice? There must be something to the idea that britney spears and them other annoying singers are the devil then, huh?

    And yowza to the beautiful comment. The beauty of a male spirit, huh? Is there beauty also in a female spirit?

    I'm sorry your weak godlet you esteem as "God", can only work with eternal "pre-existent matter", which MEANS MATTER IS AS ETERNAL AS HE IS. Nevermind that's illogical....you believe it 'cause LD$, Inc tells you to believe that.
    No need to apologize...I ***ure you accepting the LDS concept of God is much sweeter than accepting the mainstream concept of God. You're in the bad spot in terms of who's God is better.

    No, in fact Gen. 2 completely CONTRADICTS the Mormon belief of "eternal spirit children" being given fleshy tabernacles, doesn't it?
    No. Quite the opposite. But your reading into the text has to sound a little interesting if you'd care to 'splain.

    That's NOT what the Bible teaches and you're yet again guilty of foisting Mormon belief over the Biblcal text. Like I said, furnish ONE example where Angels have FLESH AND BONE, ok? Either put up or shut up, stem.
    ooohhhh...another of those efforts to intimidate LDS to stop talking, huh, JD? Here are Harnack's words on the topic, JD:

    "It (the spirit of a man) has a real being...It exists beforehand with God in the same way as it appears on earth, that is with all the material attributes belonging to its essence. Its manifestation on earth is merely a transition from concealment to publicity." Harnack History of Dogma, 1:318-19
    The spirit of man then existed prior to mortal bodies which housed those spirits. My questions were trying to figure out your belief...not so much whether you can prove me wrong or whatever.

    Only GOD KNOWS, stem. "Mystery" doesn't work because it isn't a mystery: God created angels and spirit beings, He created humans as flesh and spirit. It's REALLY that simple when one isn't trying to reconcile Mormon dogma with the Bible.
    No prob. You don't know then.

    I keep tellin' you, stem. God did NOT cause the downfall. Adam did it all by his little lonesome with Eve. Obviously you're only capable of STRAW-MAN illustrations.
    I'm capable of more than just strawmen, JD. I just need you to 'splain how you get away from the idea that God caused the downfall while addressing my logic. Here ya go:

    If God created ex nihilo...God knew before anything was created what was going to be the outcome of his creations. He knew exactly what choices adam and eve would make before creating them. He knew satan would, if not already bad, turn bad and attempt ruin his plans. ya with me, cause its going to get a little trickier for you to comprehend?

    It goes deeper. Remember God was all there was before creating. He conceived of every action that each of his creations would do before creating, right? Its more than just that He knew Eve would succumb to temptation and partake, but he conceived of it. Eve would not have succumbed if God did not conceive of the occurence before she was created out of nothing. He certainly could have conceived that Eve would not succumb to the temptation, right? I mean if He before creating out of nothing designed Eve, out of nothing, to not succumb at that moment, then the fall woudl not have happened. And, according to your beliefs, He could have done just that. He could have conceived of designing her different than he did. He could have made her to ignore satan if He wanted. But he didn't. Thus, it must be that he chose the fall before anything ever was created. There really is no other conclusion to draw, JD, if ya think about it.

    love,
    stem

  16. #41
    Father_JD
    Guest

    Default

    Same ol' balderdash from you, stemster. I'd like you to place IN CONTEXT your little snippet from Harnack. This I gotta see...just how Mormons have convoluted what he said just like you convolute everything else in desperate trys to make others somehow support Mormon ***ertions.

    The Bible does NOT teach the pre-existence of HUMAN BEINGS and that's CLEAR from Gen. 2. Adam BECAME a LIVING SOUL at the time of the creation of his body.

    So here's your citation and your comment:

    "It (the spirit of a man) has a real being...It exists beforehand with God in the same way as it appears on earth, that is with all the material attributes belonging to its essence. Its manifestation on earth is merely a transition from concealment to publicity." Harnack History of Dogma, 1:318-19

    The spirit of man then existed prior to mortal bodies which housed those spirits. My questions were trying to figure out your belief...not so much whether you can prove me wrong or whatever.

    Shall we see just how dishonest your citation from Harnack was, stem?


    On the Conception of Pre-existence.

    On account of the importance of the question, we may be here permitted to amplify a few hints given in Chap. II., § 4, and elsewhere, and to draw a clearer distinction between the Jewish and Hellenic conceptions of pre-existence.

    According to the theory held by the ancient Jews and by the whole of the Semitic nations, everything of real value that from time to time appears on earth has its existence in heaven. In other words, it exists with God, that is God possesses a knowledge of it; and for that reason it has a real being. But it exists beforehand with God in the same way as it appears on earth, that is with all the material attributes belonging to its essence. Its manifestation on earth is merely a transition from concealment to publicity (φανεροῦσθαι). In becoming visible to the senses, the object in question ***umes no attribute that it did not already possess with God. Hence its material nature is by no means an inadequate expression of it, nor is it a second nature added to the first. The truth rather is that what was in heaven before is now revealing itself upon earth, without any sort of alteration taking place in the process. There is no ***umptio naturæ novæ, and no change or mixture. The old Jewish theory of pre-existence is founded on the religious idea of the omniscience and omni-potence of God, that God to whom the events of history do not come as a surprise, but who guides their course. As the whole history of the world and the destiny of each individual are recorded on his tablets or books, so also each thing is ever present before him. The decisive contrast is between God and the creature. In designating the latter as “foreknown” by God, the primary idea is not to ennoble the creature, but 319rather to bring to light the wisdom and power of God. The ennobling of created things by attributing to them a pre-existence is a secondary result (see below).

    According to the Hellenic conception, which has become ***ociated with Platonism, the idea of pre-existence is independent of the idea of God; it is based on the conception of the contrast between spirit and matter, between the infinite and finite, found in the cosmos itself. In the case of all spiritual beings, life in the body or flesh is at bottom an inadequate and unsuitable condition, for the spirit is eternal, the flesh perishable. But the pre-temporal existence, which was only a doubtful ***umption as regards ordinary spirits, was a matter of certainty in the case of the higher and purer ones. They lived in an upper world long before this earth was created, and they lived there as spirits without the “polluted garment of the flesh.” Now if they resolved for some reason or other to appear in this finite world, they cannot simply become visible, for they have no “visible form.” They must rather “***ume flesh,” whether they throw it about them as a covering, or really make it their own by a process of transformation or mixture. In all cases—and here the speculation gave rise to the most exciting problems—the body is to them something inadequate which they cannot appropriate without adopting certain measures of precaution, but this process may indeed p*** through all stages, from a mere seeming appropriation to complete union. The characteristics of the Greek ideas of pre-existence may consequently be thus expressed. First, the objects in question to which pre-existence is ascribed are meant to be ennobled by this attribute. Secondly, these ideas have no relation to God. Thirdly, the material appearance is regarded as something inadequate. Fourthly, speculations about phantasma, ***umptio naturæ humanæ, transmutatio, mixtura, duæ naturæ, etc., were necessarily ***ociated with these notions.

    We see that these two conceptions are as wide apart as the poles. The first has a religious origin, the second a cosmological and psychological; the first glorifies God, the second the created spirit.



    Harnack is NOT saying that the ancient church believed in a pre-existence. He compares and contrasts Jewish and Greek THEORIES or CONCEPTIONS that if there were a pre-existence, it would be based upon these lines.

    NOTE! IT'S ALL SPECULATION, stem. So shame on you for deceitfully pushing this forward as FACT.

    So typically "Mormon". An apologetic based upon nothing but WISHFUL THINKING.
    Last edited by Father_JD; 11-13-2009 at 03:18 PM.

  17. #42
    stemelbow
    Guest

    Default

    Harnack is NOT saying that the ancient church believed in a pre-existence. He compares and contrasts Jewish and Greek THEORIES or CONCEPTIONS that if there were a pre-existence, it would be based upon these lines.

    NOTE! IT'S ALL SPECULATION, stem. So shame on you for deceitfully pushing this forward as FACT.
    I didn't intend to suggest his ideas are established fact, only that his ideas and others tend to suggest there is evidence the ancient hebrews, at least some, thought there was a pre-existence to the spirit of man. shame on you for misunderstanding my point.

    love,
    stem

  18. #43
    Father_JD
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    I didn't intend to suggest his ideas are established fact, only that his ideas and others tend to suggest there is evidence the ancient hebrews, at least some, thought there was a pre-existence to the spirit of man. shame on you for misunderstanding my point.

    love,
    stem
    Right...sure, stem. But this gives you away that you most certainly "suggested" Harnack's ideas as "established fact" by writing:

    The spirit of man then existed prior to mortal bodies which housed those spirits.
    You cited Harnack in support of Mormon dogma which you clearly admitted here. You're not fooling anyone, stem.

    The truth is most likely you never bothered to read Harnack's statement IN CONTEXT, but relied on some Mormon apologetic website whose resident "scholar" cherry picked words, hoping to fool everyone.

    No one is arguing against the idea of a "pre-existence" having existed...especially among the GREEKS. But I defy you and any Mormon to establish it was ever doctrine in the ancient church.
    Last edited by Father_JD; 11-14-2009 at 09:24 AM.

  19. #44
    stemelbow
    Guest

    Default

    No one is arguing against the idea of a "pre-existence" having existed...especially among the GREEKS. But I defy you and any Mormon to establish it was ever doctrine in the ancient church.
    The point is obvious, JD. If the ideas existed among ancient Jews then it may have been the doctrine long lost among Jews. But defining the doctrine of the ancient church hasn't proven so easy.

    love,
    stem

  20. #45
    akaSeerone
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    The point is obvious, JD. If the ideas existed among ancient Jews then it may have been the doctrine long lost among Jews. But defining the doctrine of the ancient church hasn't proven so easy.

    love,
    stem
    When was the any pre existence believed among the ancient Jews? CFR!

    Andy

  21. #46
    stemelbow
    Guest

    Default

    Read up a few posts, Andy. The reference was already given.

    love,
    stem

  22. #47
    MacG
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stemelbow View Post
    When did the devil act as a ministering spirit? What evidence do you have that he was at one time a ministering spirit?
    Before he ministered unto himself and not God. Some time after his making and before Eve's temptation in the garden.


    Its eternally existing.
    Genesis says that God said "Let there be..." this presumes it was not before it came to be.

    What ministering did he do? If he was at one time a ministering spirit then there must be something saying he ministered at some point. if he did not minister then it seems he never did any good...So was that before God created the world/earth?
    What ever it was that God wanted him and the others to do (some say he was a musician but form a biblical standpoint that is a weak argument but gets trotted out to rail against Christian rock. The Bible is not so specific in these matters and does not spend too much time of the life history of the Devil.

    Please realize I accept the Biblical p***ages but i do not read into them your ***umptions. So quoting the p***ages without explanation only helps my case, if you ask me. So I'm asking how do you know that God making two kinds of life and that the devil was made to be a "ministering spirit" are not salvation issues?emphasis mine
    Because the devil's not on the entrance exam and therefore not relevant to my salvation. However he we are taught that he and his cohorts in crime more than likely will try to influence me as I try to renew my mind as I am being conformed in to the image and likeness of God's Son.

    And how do you know is not what God created him to be? It seems since God knew he would seek to replace God before creating him out of nothing, long before eve was tempted, it seems, shows that God made him as one destined to do evil for a reason. And that God made him out of nothing, conceiving of hw he would be evil and went ahead and created him to be evil. I see no other conclusion to make, logically speaking. You?
    I would say He did in spite of knowing that and being just in His ways (whose ways are not my ways) provided the lamb slain before the foundation of the world that whosoever shall believe in Him will be saved and whosoever will not the wrath of God abides on such a one.

    Okay. I don't see any of this specifically saying that our spirits did not previously exist though. I asked why did God create us with spirits and physical bodies and you're answer was saying that spirits do not have bodies. So it came from your attempt at answering my question.

    love,
    stem
    I musta misunderstood. I thought that when you say spirits you mean preincarnate persons so I replied with Psalm 102:18 and 139:13.

    Let this be written for a future generation,
    that a people not yet created may praise the LORD.

    Pslam 139:13
    For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

    But now I can see that this can work for you as well due to the extra biblical revelations of the Apostles and Prophets of TCJCLDS about procreating gods in yonder heavens.

    The only spirits other than God that are mentioned in the Bible are the angels and demons and those humans who have died not those who are yet to come. Do you remember how shocked the Jews were to hear Jesus say that before Abraham was I AM? If they believed in the preincarnate spirit then this would not be a real problem for them.

    Grace and peace,

    MacG

  23. #48
    stemelbow
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacG View Post
    Before he ministered unto himself and not God. Some time after his making and before Eve's temptation in the garden.
    So how do you know this? What's your evidence?

    Genesis says that God said "Let there be..." this presumes it was not before it came to be.
    I understand that's the ***umption mainstreamers read into it, but LDS just don't make that ***umption. When God said, for LDS, "let there be..." he was not saying Let there be the very fine matter that makes up all things.

    What ever it was that God wanted him and the others to do (some say he was a musician but form a biblical standpoint that is a weak argument but gets trotted out to rail against Christian rock. The Bible is not so specific in these matters and does not spend too much time of the life history of the Devil.
    Okay. But then why ***ume he was created good?

    I would say He did in spite of knowing that and being just in His ways (whose ways are not my ways) provided the lamb slain before the foundation of the world that whosoever shall believe in Him will be saved and whosoever will not the wrath of God abides on such a one.
    Okay, but what about God conceiving of the evil the devil would do before the devil was created ex nihilo? I mean if God did not already conceive of all the evil deeds the devil would do, then they would never have been done? The devil himself would not be bad because God created each and every part of the devil...not to mention you and I.

    I musta misunderstood. I thought that when you say spirits you mean preincarnate persons so I replied with Psalm 102:18 and 139:13.

    Let this be written for a future generation,
    that a people not yet created may praise the LORD.

    Pslam 139:13
    For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

    But now I can see that this can work for you as well due to the extra biblical revelations of the Apostles and Prophets of TCJCLDS about procreating gods in yonder heavens.

    The only spirits other than God that are mentioned in the Bible are the angels and demons and those humans who have died not those who are yet to come. Do you remember how shocked the Jews were to hear Jesus say that before Abraham was I AM? If they believed in the preincarnate spirit then this would not be a real problem for them.

    Grace and peace,

    MacG
    NO problem. I get your point here. THanks.

    love,
    stem

  24. #49
    akaSeerone
    Guest

    Default

    You really have the nerve....judging God.

    The Bible says that everything God made was perfect....and that should go without saying....after all God is Perfect. Satan was created with free will and he chose to defy God and that brought about Sin in him.

    And you have the nerve to blame God for Satan defying God and sinning!? Shame on you.

    God said let there be and there was.....and the Bible says that God created out of nothing ......That is what the Bible plainly says, so what is your squawk about ex Nihilo.

    It is unbelievable how you doubt the Bible and corrupt it with your foisting mormon meaning into God's Holy Writ.

    You mormon mopologists are worse that devils and you seem to glory in your spewing of evil......James 2:19

    19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


    Andy
    Last edited by akaSeerone; 11-17-2009 at 02:20 PM.

  25. #50
    stemelbow
    Guest

    Default

    Andy, you have yet to address my argument. I think God is great and good in every way. My argument is that your belief system forces God to be bad, as explained in the OP. If you care to address my argument then by all means do so. If not, then continue with your hostility and misunderstanding.

    love,
    stem

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •