was lucifer created evil?

[Father_JD]

Clearly you didn't understand a thing from my post, stem.

I was using the legitimate Ad Hominem argument in which one argues his opponent's position to its logical conclusion.

Your only escape from your own dilemma which you pose which is equally applicable to the Mormo-god, is to "cop out" and posit the Mormo-god is NOT OMNISCIENT.

But as typical Mormon who you are, you wanna have your Green Goddess Jell-O and eat it, too.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

So you concede the point that your beleif system shows God to be the very source of all evil? Interesting concession, JD. As for my belief system....Col. 1 does not in anyway refute it. Nice try though.

love,
stem

You weren't paying attention, stem. God is NOT THE SOURCE OF ALL EVIL. The biblical position is GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL.

Plain and simple.

The answer is SECONDARY CREATION which you keep running away from.

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by Stem

Find me a credible, modern day mainstream Christian who accepts pre-mortal existence of all beings.

First off define "Exist". And ask yourself if God didn't think you existed would you?

One thing I like about the Endowment is that first all things were created spiritually and then realized physically only after the spiritual creation. One must think of something before one can create. For most the very idea that God thought of us is the definition of pre-existent life. To most Mainstreamers I know "Nothing" exists outside of God.. Hence the belief of creation ex nilio. This idea of creating from nothing makes absolutely no sense to us as "reasonable" and "logical" human beings. It forces us to wonder "How can something come from nothing?" and then we have people who later come along and say that since its illogical it MUST be false. This is why you can't grasp that "Good" and "Evil" are only definitions applied by finite beings and is why you cannot grasp "Something" from "Nothing". You and many, many people LDS and Non want to impose mans finite reasoning onto an infinite God. It just doesn't work, and IMO NEVER will.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Yes, those Evans are wrong. ALL people are involved in SECONDARY CREATION of some kind or another. "Create" does NOT necessarily connote "something from nothing".

---So God is NOT the author of everything that exists?

Give me those "Evans" numbers, jeff. I'll set them straight!!

---Here is their address: "Carm, c/o Matt Slick, The Internet."

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---So God is NOT the author of everything that exists?

No. The Bible declares God is NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL, jeff.

---Here is their address: "Carm, c/o Matt Slick, The Internet."

Har har.

[stemelbow]

Even more...you demonstrate you only think you know what you're talking about. In reality all you got is a pile of ambiguous quotes which you use to mean something they don't necessarily mean, then proclaim, "I, JD, Speak for God". Talk about false prophets.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

You argued sans logic, JD. That's the whole point. I've already explained how your silly attempt at being logical, for once, is nothing more than your misunderstanding of the issues presented. It was an adorable show, JD.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

You argued sans logic, JD. That's the whole point. I've already explained how your silly attempt at being logical, for once, is nothing more than your misunderstanding of the issues presented. It was an adorable show, JD.

love,
stem

Do you take lessons in condescension or is it a natural gift?

Care to address my post?? If not cool..

Kind regards,
Sentinus

Edited to add. I have just read a few other exchanges between you and JD. It seems that you two have a mutual way of trading punches so please ignore my post as far it concerns your responses to JD.

[stemelbow]

I appreciate your edit. Yes, JD and I have been at it for years, and I admit to mirroring the approaches that come my way. I don't say its a good thing but sometimes I find it the best way to get somewhere with him....I do the same with others. He might say I started the condescension...I don't know. Its turned kinda fun in a sick way, and in another way it gets us to the point pretty quickly.

I didn't see your post. I'll recheck.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I appreciate your edit. Yes, JD and I have been at it for years, and I admit to mirroring the approaches that come my way. I don't say its a good thing but sometimes I find it the best way to get somewhere with him....I do the same with others. He might say I started the condescension...I don't know. Its turned kinda fun in a sick way, and in another way it gets us to the point pretty quickly.

I didn't see your post. I'll recheck.

love,
stem

Originally Posted by Stem

I appreciate your edit.

No prob, just want to be fair. You both have a gift IMO...

Originally Posted by Stem

I didn't see your post. I'll recheck.

Thanks. http://www.waltermartin.com//forums/...&postcount=228

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

You argued sans logic, JD. That's the whole point. I've already explained how your silly attempt at being logical, for once, is nothing more than your misunderstanding of the issues presented. It was an adorable show, JD.

love,
stem

I see you've jettisoned your pet phrase of, "bald ***ertion" to "an adorable show", stem...or are you a pod person who did away with the real stemmy?

I've explained it to you several times now:

Your only escape is to posit that the Mormo-deity isn't omniscient.

[stemelbow]

I already explained my escape for which you haven't addressed, JD. I haven't wholly adopted an adorable show, but it does describe your gaming here quite well. Stay tuned we'll see if it sticks.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I already explained my escape for which you haven't addressed, JD. I haven't wholly adopted an adorable show, but it does describe your gaming here quite well. Stay tuned we'll see if it sticks.

love,
stem

Did the Mormo-god FOREKNOW Lucifer's "evil designs", stem?

YES or NO???

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

First off define "Exist". And ask yourself if God didn't think you existed would you?

One thing I like about the Endowment is that first all things were created spiritually and then realized physically only after the spiritual creation. One must think of something before one can create. For most the very idea that God thought of us is the definition of pre-existent life. To most Mainstreamers I know "Nothing" exists outside of God.. Hence the belief of creation ex nilio. This idea of creating from nothing makes absolutely no sense to us as "reasonable" and "logical" human beings. It forces us to wonder "How can something come from nothing?" and then we have people who later come along and say that since its illogical it MUST be false. This is why you can't grasp that "Good" and "Evil" are only definitions applied by finite beings and is why you cannot grasp "Something" from "Nothing". You and many, many people LDS and Non want to impose mans finite reasoning onto an infinite God. It just doesn't work, and IMO NEVER will.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

It seems youwould claim creation ex nihilo was and then came a creation out of something. Such is not the case--creation ex nihilo doesn't really appear until much later in time. But I ask for you to prove your ***ertion--that creation ex nihilo was then came an alternative. We can go from there in any sort of investigation. It seems to me,as I said before, creation ex nihilo wasn't adopted as officially Christian dogma until hundreds of years after Christ.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

It seems youwould claim creation ex nihilo was and then came a creation out of something. Such is not the case--creation ex nihilo doesn't really appear until much later in time. But I ask for you to prove your ***ertion--that creation ex nihilo was then came an alternative. We can go from there in any sort of investigation. It seems to me,as I said before, creation ex nihilo wasn't adopted as officially Christian dogma until hundreds of years after Christ.

love,
stem

Originally Posted by Stem

creation ex nihilo wasn't adopted as officially Christian dogma until hundreds of years after Christ.

An even better place to start would be for you to prove that this statement is indeed factual..

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

JD, I've already answered this. Your just playing games now--creating an adorable show.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

An even better place to start would be for you to prove that this statement is indeed factual..

Kind regards,
Sentinus

Okay.

According to Hatch, this theory penetrated the Christian community through Tatian in the second half of the second century:

With Basilides [a second century Gnostic philosopher], the conception of matter was raised to a higher plane. The distinction of subject and object was preserved, so that the action of the Transcendent God was still that of creation and not of evolution; but it was "out of that which was not" that He made things to be . . . . The basis of the theory was Platonic, though some of the terms were borrowed from both Aristotle and the Stoics. It became itself the basis for the theory which ultimately prevailed in the Church. The transition appears in Tatian [ca. 170 A.D.]78

Found here: http://www.fairlds.org/Restoring_the...ch/chap03.html

Also to note if/when the question arises:

The earliest Christians, as Hatch intimates, believed the Jewish doctrine81 of creation from chaos. For instance, Justin Martyr wrote, "And we have been taught that He in the beginning did of His goodness, for man's sake, create all things out of unformed matter . . . ."82 Peter himself echoed the picture presented in Genesis 1:1-2 of a watery chaos from which the world was created. The New English Bible translates these p***ages in the following way: "In the beginning of creation . . . the earth was without form and void, with darkness over the face of the abyss, and a mighty wind that swept over the surface of the waters." (Genesis 1:1-2 NEB) "There were heavens and earth long ago, created by God's word out of water and with water . . . ." (2 Peter 3:5 NEB)

From the same place. I'd link the originals but I couldn't find them on-line. Hopefully this will get the point across and get us moving onto something.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

JD, I've already answered this. Your just playing games now--creating an adorable show.

love,
stem

You've certainly been paying LIP SERVICE to "omniscience" but DENY THE DOCTRINE ESSENTIALLY.

This comes across like a small child who doesn't understand the meaning of the term, but childishly still wants to argue.

[stemelbow]

I appreciate the projection for what it is, JD. 'Tis sad to see that you would play these games rather than engage the issues raised. But such is the lot of the mainstreamer I suppose. You aren't the only one.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I appreciate the projection for what it is, JD. 'Tis sad to see that you would play these games rather than engage the issues raised. But such is the lot of the mainstreamer I suppose. You aren't the only one.

love,
stem

Did the Mormo-god FOREKNOW Lucifer's "evil designs", stem?

YES or NO???

[stemelbow]

Sure He did, as I've explained for I don't know how many times now for you. Since Lucifer's evil designs had gone on for eternity already, everyone knew of them--in this case, Lucifer decided to mimick them, since he was mad at God.

love,
stem

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Sure He did, as I've explained for I don't know how many times now for you. Since Lucifer's evil designs had gone on for eternity already, everyone knew of them--in this case, Lucifer decided to mimick them, since he was mad at God.

love,
stem

This is because you believe there are as many Satans as there are Jesus'.. That never ending chain of gods must mean a never ending chain of devils.. GARBAGE.. IHS jim

[stemelbow]

Nope...ya got my beliefs wrong, again, jim. I don't believe what you just said.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Sure He did, as I've explained for I don't know how many times now for you. Since Lucifer's evil designs had gone on for eternity already, everyone knew of them--in this case, Lucifer decided to mimick them, since he was mad at God.

love,
stem

So NOW you posit that EVERYONE knew based upon Lucifer's past dirty tricks. This is an outright DENIAL OF GOD'S ATTRIBUTE OF OMNISCIENCE.

Your Mormo-god only knows something, which is nothing more than an educated "guess", based upon past performance of someone or something.

To mimick you, "An adorable show" stemster. Very adorable!!

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

So NOW you posit that EVERYONE knew based upon Lucifer's past dirty tricks. This is an outright DENIAL OF GOD'S ATTRIBUTE OF OMNISCIENCE.

That's not what I said, JD. You have read something into my comments again without realizing you did so.

Your Mormo-god only knows something, which is nothing more than an educated "guess", based upon past performance of someone or something.

Again that's a mischaracterization.

To mimick you, "An adorable show" stemster. Very adorable!!

Your inability to deal with what I've said and ran to some deflection is the adorable show, JD.

love,
stem