was lucifer created evil?

[Father_JD]

The question remains, stemmy...

Did God KNOW beforehand, based upon His perfect knowledge of past, present and future, OR was it merely based upon His knowing the kinds of things the eternally-existent Lucifer had done in the past??

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

The question remains, stemmy...

Did God KNOW beforehand, based upon His perfect knowledge of past, present and future, OR was it merely based upon His knowing the kinds of things the eternally-existent Lucifer had done in the past??

I've already addressed that, JD. God knew exactly what Lucifer would do, and it wasn't based merely on His knowing the things Lucifer had done in the past. I've already made that clear. You're stalling again, JD.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I've already addressed that, JD. God knew exactly what Lucifer would do, and it wasn't based merely on His knowing the things Lucifer had done in the past. I've already made that clear. You're stalling again, JD.

love,
stem

If so, then the Mormo-god CONCEIVED/ORIGINATED Lucifer's thoughts of rebellion...the same accusation you hurl at the Biblical God, stemster.

You can't have it both ways...although Mos always try that, but then demonstrate a lack of intellectual honesty or integrity...

[stemelbow]

Nah...impossible since Lucifer's thoughts of rebellion were merely mimicks of previous rebellions. No one originated evil in LDs thought, like God did in mainstreamism. It was a nice attempt on your part to obscure things, JD, but we've already been through it...remember?

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Nah...impossible since Lucifer's thoughts of rebellion were merely mimicks of previous rebellions. No one originated evil in LDs thought, like God did in mainstreamism. It was a nice attempt on your part to obscure things, JD, but we've already been through it...remember?

love,
stem

"Mimicks of PREVIOUS rebellions", meaning the Mormo-god only knew based upon knowledge of PREVIOUS REBELLIONS, stemmy.

You just denied the Mormo-god the attribute of OMNISCIENCE.

Thanks for proving it yet again: Mormons pay lip-service to certain doctrines, but deny them in actuality.

[stemelbow]

Thanks for your desperate attempt to drag LDS beliefs down the pit of delusion along with your own. Too bad your argument suffers from such delusion that you don't realize while sinking your own ship you left the LDS ship all alone floating safely on the surface.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Thanks for your desperate attempt to drag LDS beliefs down the pit of delusion along with your own. Too bad your argument suffers from such delusion that you don't realize while sinking your own ship you left the LDS ship all alone floating safely on the surface.

love,
stem

I just demonstrated YOUR OWN POSITION, STEMMY:

Lucifer's thoughts of rebellion were merely mimicks of previous rebellions

The Mormo-god can NOT be omniscient.

[stemelbow]

Your conclusion ("The Mormo-god can NOT be omniscient.") suffers from logical fallacies, JD. Its in explaining logic to you that perhaps may end up being the best benefit to you in all of this.

He (God) can certainly be omniscient (which means to know all things since its apparent you keep misusing the word) while Lucifer's thoughts of rebellion were merely mimicks of previous rebellions. Indeed, God could be well aware of the previous rebellions and thoughts of those rebellions.

Keep trying to think...you'll get there someday.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Your conclusion ("The Mormo-god can NOT be omniscient.") suffers from logical fallacies, JD. Its in explaining logic to you that perhaps may end up being the best benefit to you in all of this.

He (God) can certainly be omniscient (which means to know all things since its apparent you keep misusing the word) while Lucifer's thoughts of rebellion were merely mimicks of previous rebellions. Indeed, God could be well aware of the previous rebellions and thoughts of those rebellions.

Keep trying to think...you'll get there someday.

love,
stem

LOL. "God COULD BE WELL AWARE of the previous rebellions and thoughts", etc????

You have just now shown that for you, God's OMNISCIENCE is merely a THEORY, couching your language in "could ofs".

Thanks again for demonstrating Mormon CONFUSION.

[stemelbow]

You have just now shown that for you, God's OMNISCIENCE is merely a THEORY,

Slow quick to conclude and so slow to understand, JD. What is a theory, JD? Just curious if ya realize what you're saying here.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Slow quick to conclude and so slow to understand, JD. What is a theory, JD? Just curious if ya realize what you're saying here.

love,
stem

You stated the Mormo-god "COULD BE AWARE". Language has MEANING, stem. You posed a HYPOTHETICAL which is THEORETICAL.

Sheesh.

[stemelbow]

The possibility that He could be aware proves your attempt to bring LDS beliefs down the drain with your own is foolishness. Your beliefs alone are headed down the drain, JD.

I only used "could be aware" to disprove via logic your ill-conceived attempt to bring LDS belief down with your own. I know you don't get that, but it makes sense when ya think about it.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

The possibility that He could be aware proves your attempt to bring LDS beliefs down the drain with your own is foolishness. Your beliefs alone are headed down the drain, JD.

I only used "could be aware" to disprove via logic your ill-conceived attempt to bring LDS belief down with your own. I know you don't get that, but it makes sense when ya think about it.

love,
stem

You used "could be aware" BECAUSE you're not certain one way or the other. Tell me, stem, what does LD$, Inc. tell you to believe NOW??

[stemelbow]

hah...JD. you're attempt to situate yourself into my brain as if you know exactly what I'm thinking in some silly hope to knock down a straw man is itself the adorable show expected of JD, but incidentally is explained by the mixed up belief system you hold. Talk about accepting what you're told to believe, JD.

So far from this thread it seems your position can be summarized as:

Well, God created all things good so there's no way God, who designed Satan by scratch who knew everything satan would do before He designed him from scratch, intended satan to be evil. God's intention was that Satan, though designed from nothing by God, was going to be good, but satan whose choices God knew about before designing him out of nothing, and in fact knew when and how those choices, which would never have been made if God did not design satan as He did, would be made, frustrated God's anticipations by choosing to be bad, even though God knew that satan would be bad, knowing what it was going to take for satan to be bad. Fewf! what a convoluted mess you are forced to regurgitate in some vein hope that your belief in God is not seen, even if logical dictates otherwise, as evil.

as anyone would be able to see, JD, your desperate attempts to bring down my beliefs with your own is about the best option you have when it comes to defending the silliness that is your beliefs. Its obvious your silly beliefs have caused you to think such desperation and illogic is somehow the valid method of argumentation. Wow...too bad your stuck with this having to wait till someone tells you to think on you'r own.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

What makes you think Lucifer "frustrated God's anticipations, etc."??

Your problem, to which you're still very much BLIND, is that for you to dis***ociate yourself from historic, Biblical teaching is that you can only do one of two things (although you've done both here)

1. Accept the idea that the Miormo-god is really "omnisicient", therefore KNEW Satan's future rebellion, etc. based SOLELY upon his FOREKNOWLEDGE which renders the argument of ex nihilo creation moot...making your god ALSO the "originator of his evil designs" according to YOU...OR
2. Deny the Mormo-god's omniscience (which you've actually done), and that he "knew" of Lucifer's future rebellion which is merely based upon his "past experiences" with him.

So far, you've affirmed both.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

What makes you think Lucifer "frustrated God's anticipations, etc."??

Your problem, to which you're still very much BLIND, is that for you to dis***ociate yourself from historic, Biblical teaching is that you can only do one of two things (although you've done both here)

1. Accept the idea that the Miormo-god is really "omnisicient", therefore KNEW Satan's future rebellion, etc. based SOLELY upon his FOREKNOWLEDGE which renders the argument of ex nihilo creation moot...making your god ALSO the "originator of his evil designs" according to YOU...OR

Oh JD. The problem you are having is attempting to link the LDS concept of God to evil just as your own does. But sadly, every attempt you make to do so, you either do not understand the LDS position, or my argument for that matter, nor account for your beliefs requiring upon God to be the very source of all evil since He created all things from nothing. You think somehow your silly attempt to drag LDS belief down with your own is going to dig yourself out of the pit you find yourself in. Not only that, but your attempt at incriminating the LDS concept of God is utterly illogical.

2. Deny the Mormo-god's omniscience (which you've actually done), and that he "knew" of Lucifer's future rebellion which is merely based upon his "past experiences" with him.

So far, you've affirmed both.

I haven't affirmed both...you simply just haven't understood.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

IF the Mormo-god could foresee Lucifer's FUTURE rebellions, THEN those future rebellions HAD to have ORIGINATED in the Mormo-god's mind, according to your logic.

There's NO escape from flaky Mormon "theology" which has NO basis in the Bible.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

IF the Mormo-god could foresee Lucifer's FUTURE rebellions, THEN those future rebellions HAD to have ORIGINATED in the Mormo-god's mind, according to your logic.

Obviously you haven't understood my logic, JD, since such is not true. If He could foresee that Lucifer was going to rebel just as others had previously, then the conception of lucifer's rebellion cannot be found in God's conception. Evil already was, JD. Sadly for you, in your effort to bring down LDS belief with your own, you are left in the pit of God being evil, since you affirm mainstream principals.

There's NO escape from flaky Mormon "theology" which has NO basis in the Bible.

Your bald ***ertions aren't doing you any favors, even if you are just using them to deflect and hide your evil belief system.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

LOL. You're blind to as how "adorably bald" your ***ertions are, stemster.

You're still not "getting it". If the Mormo-deity FORESAW future rebellion of Lucifer, THEN that rebellion HAD to have ORIGINATED in his mind...according to your own faulty logic.

The truth?

The Mormo-deity is neither omniscient nor omnipotent, 'cause he's an IDOL, fashioned from the fetid imagination of a false prophet named, "Joseph Smith".

[stemelbow]

You're still not "getting it". If the Mormo-deity FORESAW future rebellion of Lucifer, THEN that rebellion HAD to have ORIGINATED in his mind...according to your own faulty logic.

This has been some fun back and forth, but your illogic remains clear. Here's the logic as you see it, it seems:

1. God foresaw Lucifer's rebellion.
2. Lucifer rebelled.
3. Therefore Lucifer's rebellion and evil for that matter originated in God's conception.

Your ***umption is that Lucifer's rebellion was not already known and practiced by other's, before Lucifer's spirit was formed. obviously your steps are illogical.

Again your attempt to bring down LDS belief with your own has been disproven. Thanks.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

No, the "illogic" is all yours, stem...trying to DEFEND the Mormo-deity FORESEEING FUTURE REBELLIONS OF SATAN and their not being "originated" in his mind, but yet applying this to the BIBLICAL GOD who really IS omnisicient.

[nrajeff]

But at the end of day, your belief that God is the sole and total AUTHOR of EVERYTHING remains in the public record, FJD.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil? Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

Looking forward to an enlightening discussion on the topic.

love,
stem

2 Nephi 2:17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.
18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil."

It seems he was created good and became evil.

MacG

[stemelbow]

No way, Jeff. God conjured up everything before creating in His own mind, but that does not mean He conjured up Satan's evil designs...Satan did that, but God knew of satan's evil designs before satan was ever created...but God wouldn't cause evil as JD's feelings dictate therefore JD concludes God didn't conceive of evil deeds before anything was created, but that puts JD in the position of having to accept that God didn't know what His otherwise uncreated creatures would do. Ah never mind all of that for JD...He just wants to whine about LDS belief and attempt to drag LDS down with Him, in this evil conception of what is God.

All very sad.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Such definitely works for LDS belief, MacG. But sadly the philosophy behind mainstream's dogmatic belief forces upon God to be the source of all evil, if taken to its logical conclusion.

love,
stem