was lucifer created evil?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Such definitely works for LDS belief, MacG. But sadly the philosophy behind mainstream's dogmatic belief forces upon God to be the source of all evil, if taken to its logical conclusion.

love,
stem

Well, then, stem, the same logic MUST apply to the Mormon deity.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

But at the end of day, your belief that God is the sole and total AUTHOR of EVERYTHING remains in the public record, FJD.

God is NOT the author of evil, jeff...so I don't know how you come up with that one!1

[Father_JD]

...that does not mean He conjured up Satan's evil designs...Satan did that, but God knew of satan's evil designs before satan was ever created

And that's EXACTLY what I've been telling you about the BIBLICAL God, stem.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Such definitely works for LDS belief, MacG. But sadly the philosophy behind mainstream's dogmatic belief forces upon God to be the source of all evil, if taken to its logical conclusion.

love,
stem

Stem, then by that reasoning every Mormon that has kids knowing that they will eventually engage in evil creates them to do evil.

MacG

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by MacG

Stem, then by that reasoning every Mormon that has kids knowing that they will eventually engage in evil creates them to do evil.

MacG

That's no following my logic at all, MacG. No LDS person who has a kid is creating the kid ex nihilo knowing each and every act that kid would do, how they would do it, and under what conditions they would do it. In other words, your attempt at bringing my beliefs down with your own is not following logic and in no way argues against the sad state your belief system is in, due to this one point alone.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

And that's EXACTLY what I've been telling you about the BIBLICAL God, stem.

I know...that's why I repeated your illogical, irrational, contradicting conclusion for Jeff. So he knows just how foolish your statements must be in order your beliefs don't appear so foolish.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Of course, JD, close your eyes, stop your ears and stick your head in the sand, all at the same time, while screaming out the refrain, 'I don't get why you guys are logically explaining the foolishness of my beliefs...they aren't foolish, I'm saying they aren't so they aren't'.

love,
stem

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

That's no following my logic at all, MacG. No LDS person who has a kid is creating the kid ex nihilo knowing each and every act that kid would do, how they would do it, and under what conditions they would do it. In other words, your attempt at bringing my beliefs down with your own is not following logic and in no way argues against the sad state your belief system is in, due to this one point alone.

-----Yes. LDS don't actually CREATE the spirits of their children, so we don't have the power to create them as people who don't sin. The God of Evangelicalism is different in that He DOES have that power but chooses not to use it. Even if we COULD foresee every sin our kids are gonna make before they make it--which we can't do--we'd STILL not have the power to CREATE them differently. What really happens down here is that parents give birth to the bodies of their children, and once the kids' spirits enter those bodies, the parents try to teach them right from wrong and try to encourage them to do what's right.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

-----Yes. LDS don't actually CREATE the spirits of their children, so we don't have the power to create them as people who don't sin. The God of Evangelicalism is different in that He DOES have that power but chooses not to use it. Even if we COULD foresee every sin our kids are gonna make before they make it--which we can't do--we'd STILL not have the power to CREATE them differently. What really happens down here is that parents give birth to the bodies of their children, and once the kids' spirits enter those bodies, the parents try to teach them right from wrong and try to encourage them to do what's right.

All the time knowing that would do evil in their lives so all parents are guilty of the sins of their children!.. IHS jim

[MacG]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

-----Yes. LDS don't actually CREATE the spirits of their children, so we don't have the power to create them as people who don't sin. The God of Evangelicalism is different in that He DOES have that power but chooses not to use it. Even if we COULD foresee every sin our kids are gonna make before they make it--which we can't do--we'd STILL not have the power to CREATE them differently. What really happens down here is that parents give birth to the bodies of their children, and once the kids' spirits enter those bodies, the parents try to teach them right from wrong and try to encourage them to do what's right.

So your God is then the cause.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by James Banta

All the time knowing that would do evil in their lives so all parents are guilty of the sins of their children!.. IHS jim

Interesting belief system you add there, Jim. You actually think parents are the guilty party of their own children's sins, or that's what you state here. Ya gonna change your position now? No LDS here, from what I've seen, consider parents guilty of their children's sins...that's just you.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by MacG

So your God is then the cause.

To bring it back to the topic of discussion, it has already been demonstrated that mainstream beliefs require God to be the source of evil. to LDS such is not the case since to LDS God did not create ex nihilo, and therefore did not conjur up all evil deeds that would be done in His own mind. Such despicable concepts are the logical conclusions of mainstreamism.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

No, "mainstream beliefs" which are FOUND ON THE BIBLE ALONE, do NOT require "god to be the source of evil".

You've been told this zillions of times and you haven't refuted that although you're convinced in your own mind that you have.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Of course, JD, close your eyes, stop your ears and stick your head in the sand, all at the same time, while screaming out the refrain, 'I don't get why you guys are logically explaining the foolishness of my beliefs...they aren't foolish, I'm saying they aren't so they aren't'.

love,
stem

LOL. I'm not the one who's attempting to reconcile mutually-exclusive truth claims as you and ALL Mos do, stem.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

No, "mainstream beliefs" which are FOUND ON THE BIBLE ALONE, do NOT require "god to be the source of evil".

You've been told this zillions of times and you haven't refuted that although you're convinced in your own mind that you have.

That's just it, JD. Mainstream beliefs aren't founded on the bible alone. Ex nihilo afterall is a standard mainstream belief but is not found in the Bible...if it was then the Bible would be right there along with mainstreamism as forcing upon God to be the source of all that is evil.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Sure you are the one doing such, JD. You say God is good, but you also say God is the very source of everything, via his supposed creation ex nihilo. Thus, confirming the notion that all thoughts and deeds accomplished by his creation were originally conceived of in God's mind. Yet, you must adhered to your illogical thought that God is good, otherwise the logical conclusion of your belief system (God being evil) would be conceded.

love,
stem

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Sure you are the one doing such, JD. You say God is good, but you also say God is the very source of everything, via his supposed creation ex nihilo. Thus, confirming the notion that all thoughts and deeds accomplished by his creation were originally conceived of in God's mind. Yet, you must adhered to your illogical thought that God is good, otherwise the logical conclusion of your belief system (God being evil) would be conceded.

love,
stem

You still believe as the atheist do that knowing about sin is akin to committing that sin.. You had to know that your children were gong to lie and yet you fathered children..You are guilty of their lies.. This makes your creed errored because your children are not guilty of their sin you are.. Show me in the Law (ANY LAW) that knowing that a crime will be committed makes that person guilty of the crime.. I have asked that of you before and you have ignored the request.. I understand you doing do it has no logical response..

Ok, God knew that Lucifer would sin and become Satan, He knew Adam would sin and bring death into the world. He also knew that He would defeat sin and bring life to all who would put their trust in Him.. And in all this He remained pure and never commanded sin to be committed. UNLESS you are LDS then you MUST believe that God gives contradictory commandments. He commands that no one commits murder unless He says to murder.

He commanded Adam not take the fruit He had forbidden but doesn't provide a way for Adam to reproduce, again being true to His commandment, until Adam did so, forcing sin onto all men.. And you have the right to tell us that God created evil.. All the Christian God did was to have knowledge of how His creation would behave. The mormon God forces sin onto man. God belittles Lucifer's plan so that he can no longer stay in God's presence.. The truth of the mormon God and how he dealt with sin and how the Christian God deals with sin are opposite in the extreme.. God is 100% just, the god of mormonism is 100% EVIL, FORCING SIN ON ALL FLESH.. IHS jim

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by James Banta

You still believe as the atheist do that knowing about sin is akin to committing that sin.. You had to know that your children were gong to lie and yet you fathered children..You are guilty of their lies..

Again, james, you are misunderstanding my argument--you aren't getting it. I never said that merely knowing about sin is akin to committing it. You ahve failed to grasp what I'm saying.

This makes your creed errored because your children are not guilty of their sin you are.. Show me in the Law (ANY LAW) that knowing that a crime will be committed makes that person guilty of the crime.. I have asked that of you before and you have ignored the request.. I understand you doing do it has no logical response..

Why would I show you something that is irrelevant? You have misunderstood my argument completely and require I show you something that is nonsensical. What's the point, Jim?

Ok, God knew that Lucifer would sin and become Satan, He knew Adam would sin and bring death into the world. He also knew that He would defeat sin and bring life to all who would put their trust in Him.. And in all this He remained pure and never commanded sin to be committed. UNLESS you are LDS then you MUST believe that God gives contradictory commandments. He commands that no one commits murder unless He says to murder.

In your estimation did God conceive (know of) of Lucifer's evil deeds before Lucifer was created ex nihilo?

love,
stem

[James Banta]

[stemelbow;48390]Again, james, you are misunderstanding my argument--you aren't getting it. I never said that merely knowing about sin is akin to committing it. You ahve failed to grasp what I'm saying.

Why would I show you something that is irrelevant? You have misunderstood my argument completely and require I show you something that is nonsensical. What's the point, Jim?

Here you are denying that God is responsible for sin that has sprouted within His creation..

In your estimation did God conceive (know of) of Lucifer's evil deeds before Lucifer was created ex nihilo?

Here I see you telling me that God IS responsible for sin in His creation.. Because God does know all things from the distant eternity past to the far reaching eternity yet to come.. So I am still seeing that you agree with the God haters that God is evil because He knew about and allowed evil to grow within his creation.. That is fine you can march in lock step with them on issues that you feel strongly about.. Just understand that the mormon god did more than know about sin.. He forced sin onto man.. He gave conflicting commandments. Commanding man to reproduce yet also commanding that man can not take the fruit that will allow him to keep that commandment. AND commanding through Moses that man should not murder but commanding Nephi to raise a sword to Laban who was incapable of defending himself. A man that had not be judge by the elders to be worthy of death. No Nephi took the man own sword and murdered him in the street.. This is the consistency of the mormon God yet you can't see these things. No instead you judge the Christian God for His all knowing nature.. Saying at He knew what these being would do before He created them so He made a mistake in their creation.. He is therefore responsible for the evil they committed..

God has His reason for the creation of all things and it isn't about that creation. It's about Him.. He will be glorified in His judgments, He will be glorified in evils men's rejection of His love.. He didn't make us for our own benefit He made everything for His glory (Acts 11:18). God is not glorified by forcing or even committing acts of evil.. You even have a p***age of mormon scripture that agrees with this point:

Moses 1:39
For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to p*** the immortality and eternal life of man.

I know you disagree with me that God is eternal.. You have accepted a god invented by a man. A god that he could understand and ascribe to be like.. I happened to see the Bible saying that only God ever was and will ever be God but that He does have wonders in mind for us that our minds have yet to even conceive..
1 Cor 2:9

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

If you can think of anythings that is wonderful God has something better in mind than that.. And He will give it to his children for His glory.. This is not a God that is responsible for sin and defiantly not a God that requires man to commit sin.. IHS jim

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Interesting belief system you add there, Jim. You actually think parents are the guilty party of their own children's sins, or that's what you state here. Ya gonna change your position now? No LDS here, from what I've seen, consider parents guilty of their children's sins...that's just you.

love,
stem

I showed you how rediclous it is to blame God for any sin ever committed by His creation by showing you how rediclous it would be to blame parents for the sins of their chldren.. Not right is it? If no mormon could do that then NO mormon should say that God is responsible for the evil actions of His creation.. IHS jim

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by MacG

So your God is then the cause.

---Are you admitting that your reasoning was deficient when you said:

"..by that reasoning every Mormon that has kids knowing that they will eventually engage in evil creates them to do evil" ??

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by James Banta

I showed you how rediclous it is to blame God for any sin ever committed by His creation by showing you how rediclous it would be to blame parents for the sins of their chldren.. Not right is it? If no mormon could do that then NO mormon should say that God is responsible for the evil actions of His creation.. IHS jim

Such is merely deflection, Jim. My argument is not God Himself is responsible for evil...only that your belief system if taken to its logical conclusion forces upon God to be the source of evil. That you continually misunderstand and ***ume I'm saying that God is responsible all because He knew evil would be is not addressing my point.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

That's just it, JD. Mainstream beliefs aren't founded on the bible alone. Ex nihilo afterall is a standard mainstream belief but is not found in the Bible...if it was then the Bible would be right there along with mainstreamism as forcing upon God to be the source of all that is evil.

love,
stem

But "ex nihilo" IS BIBLICAL, stem. God SPOKE, and the creation came to BE.
"Eternal matter" is NOT BIBLICAL, stem.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Are you admitting that your reasoning was deficient when you said:

"..by that reasoning every Mormon that has kids knowing that they will eventually engage in evil creates them to do evil" ??

Just tryin' to nail some Jello to a tree Jeff. It came about by the =if,then,else pattern. I said is it "this" you said "no, but this" I said "then this" and you did not answer that and called into question my reasoning which then leads me to surmise that the LDS God is the source of evil. Thanks for clearing that up.

Grace and Peace,

MacG

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by MacG

Just tryin' to nail some Jello to a tree Jeff.

----It must be Jello that you made.

It came about by the =if,then,else pattern. I said is it "this" you said "no, but this" I said "then this" and you did not answer that and called into question my reasoning which then leads me to surmise that the LDS God is the source of evil.

---Then you are still confused. It's not LDS theology that, taken to its conclusion, makes God the author of evil. It's Trinitarianism + Calvinism, with their sovereignty-absolutism and ex nihilo-ism, that do so. Maybe you didn't read my Parable of the Hasbro Evil Robot Kit Designer/Programmer/Builder.