was lucifer created evil?

[Father_JD]

Your position makes the Mormon deity some poor schmuck who's NEITHER SOVEREIGN NOR OMNIPOTENT.

You think your position "solves" these weighty philosophical matters, but you only end up with a deity who doesn't resemble the God of the Bible, jeff.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Your position makes the Mormon deity some poor schmuck who's NEITHER SOVEREIGN NOR OMNIPOTENT.

---My position? I was just questioning the logic of YOUR position. I was just pointing out the holes in your position. Whatever my position is, is irrelevant, since it won't change the problems in YOURS.

You think your position "solves" these weighty philosophical matters, but you only end up with a deity who doesn't resemble the God of the Bible, jeff

---If YOUR deity resembled the God of the Bible, then it would mean that the God of the Bible had all those problems that your position has.

I happen to believe that the God of the Bible IS able to have a son.

[stemelbow]

Actually, ex nihilo is merely read into the text by mainstreamers, like you. God spoke and things were formed, sure, but that does not equate to ex nihilo all on its own.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Actually, ex nihilo is merely read into the text by mainstreamers, like you. God spoke and things were formed, sure, but that does not equate to ex nihilo all on its own.

love,
stem

Scripture declares that God created ALL THINGS, which includes "matter". To posit "eternal matter" is an absurdity in light of that. This position posits matter to be EQUAL WITH GOD HIMSELF REGARDING HIS ETERNALITY.

You seem not to have a clue just how illogical Mormon reasoning is!

[Father_JD]

You made no holes although you're certain you did, jeff.

What plagues the Mormon mind is the attempt to reconcile Jesus' "sonship" in light of scripture's clear teaching that He has ALWAYS EXISTED WITH THE FATHER.

We created beings do NOT...according to the Bible and not poppy**** Mormon "revelation".

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You made no holes although you're certain you did, jeff.

---I don't recall seeing a real refutation of the holes in your theology that I exposed via my Parable of the Hasbro Evil Robot Designer/Builder/Activator parable. Should I make yet another thread on it, and give you one more chance to refute it?

What plagues the Mormon mind is the attempt to reconcile Jesus' "sonship" in light of scripture's clear teaching that He has ALWAYS EXISTED WITH THE FATHER.

----So you are a member of Jim's "The entire Trinity has always been, is now, and always will be in agony on the cross" cult?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---I don't recall seeing a real refutation of the holes in your theology that I exposed via my Parable of the Hasbro Evil Robot Designer/Builder/Activator parable. Should I make yet another thread on it, and give you one more chance to refute it?

What you apparently still don't "get", jeff...is if the Mormo-deity is "omniscient", your Hasbro Evil Robot Designer/Builder/Activator is likewise just as guilty.

----So you are a member of Jim's "The entire Trinity has always been, is now, and always will be in agony on the cross" cult?

I think Jim was referring to verses which speak to Christ's "Crucified from the foundation of the world" but I can't answer to his statements but I don't believe Christianity has historically taught an eternal "agony on the cross".

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil?

Created to do good....Created to worship.....Created to praise God forever...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

I don't know that we have a date...

We read in genesis that the serpent was already up to no good by the introduction of Eve into the story...But I don't think we can say that was the first moment the angel turned evil and against God...

I'm not even sure we can say there was a specific "date" as such, being the nature of angels might be past the ability of time and space to limit as it limits us.

What we can learn from the Text is that he was created pure, and yet turned away from God.....

The hint I get from the many stories about how the devil came to be is that Satan had such a high position in the Heavens that it got to him...
He was so close to the Lord's glory that he started to think of God's glory as being his own....

It may well be that all of this universe is God's answer to the challenge raise by Satan about "faith"

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil?

I believe he was created to be good, to worship and serve...

But I read that pride crept into his heart and he fell away

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

....

i dont think I can answer the question, "When did Satan fall?"

I dont think there is a very clear answer in the Bible to that question....


And...im not sure Angels tell time like humans do, so the question of "when?" might not have a good answer...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth?

when dealing with the topic of abortion, I believe that "Life starts at conception"

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil? Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth? That is both our spirits and our physical bodies, but Lucifer was created only as spirit? Why did God decide to create those who would only be spirits and those who would have physical bodies and spirit bodies?

Looking forward to an enlightening discussion on the topic.

love,
stem

God can only create in perfection...the real question is did he know who he was creating and the evils he would do. If so this would make God evil would it not?

[alanmolstad]

God knew from the beginning what would happen.

But God was not scared to give free will to his creations...

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God knew from the beginning what would happen.

But God was not scared to give free will to his creations...

Or the illusion of free will...

[alanmolstad]

if my free will is not real.....then neither is my love for God

[Libby]

Good point, Alan....very good point.

[Pa Pa]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

if my free will is not real.....then neither is my love for God

I agree...my response a pre-emptive one for comments I would home.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

if my free will is not real.....then neither is my love for God

Does God knowing you and what you will do in your life negate the fact that He allows you to have free well? I don't see why that has to be.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

Does God knowing you and what you will do in your life negate the fact that He allows you to have free well? I don't see why that has to be.. IHS jim

Unless God knows all that is to be, he is not really God.

Unless I have free will I cant really love God.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil?


Was Lucifer immediately after creation good?

If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

Im not sure we are told the year that Satan went off the rails....

I know that Satan was created "good'....but went bad on his own...

Ezekiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I
Ezekiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you

Funny thing, this is the same thing my mom said about me!

[nrajeffreturns]

Ezekiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you

Doesn't this Bible verse support the LDS doctrine that all babies are born blameless/innocent/guiltless and remain that way until some later point in their lives?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Ezekiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you

Doesn't this Bible verse support the LDS doctrine that all babies are born blameless/innocent/guiltless and remain that way until some later point in their lives?

I don't know of any, but you can make one up if you wish.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

I don't know of any,

I just told you one.