was lucifer created evil?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

I've never said that "children" cannot sin. They most certainly can.

I am saying .....

No you are simply saying what you wish was true, but without a bible verse to back it up.

Im saying what the Bible teaches...


Thats the difference here.....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

No you are simply saying what you wish was true, but without a bible verse to back it up.

Im saying what the Bible teaches...


Thats the difference here.....

Alan, Libby has made up her own religion based on what she feels is right according to her rather than yielding to what God has taught us in the Bible. She is a false teacher.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Alan, Libby has made up her own religion based on what she feels is right according to her rather than yielding to what God has taught us in the Bible. She is a false teacher.

Actually, I am very much a Christian. And, I'm not the only Christian who believes that babies do not commit personal sin.

I think it is a travesty that people try to put that on innocent babies.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

No you are simply saying what you wish was true, but without a bible verse to back it up.

Im saying what the Bible teaches...


Thats the difference here.....

Show me where the Bible says that babies commit personal sin.

Your verses are either speaking about the "sin nature" or speaking figuratively. Only a fundamentalist would take those verses absolutely literally and try to make it appear that babies sin.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Actually, I am very much a Christian. And, I'm not the only Christian who believes that babies do not commit personal sin.

I think it is a travesty that people try to put that on innocent babies.

Libby if you are truly a Christian you should ask yourself why your ideas don't line up with the Bible. Your beliefs are false in many areas and all you seem to be doing here is trying to sew discord among Christians rather than discuss Mormonism which this board is set up to do.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Show me where the Bible says that babies commit personal sin.

Libby I have given you several verses that clearly state that we ALL sin. And you are also aware that sin and accountability are two different topics because we have already discussed this.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Libby

Babies are potential sinners, not actual sinners.

Bingo. That is the solution to the whole controversy, and if Calvin and Edwards had realized and acknowledged that, there would have been a whole lot less arguments over the intervening centuries.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Bingo.

So what do you do with all of the verses that say that we ALL sin?

[Billyray]

Jeff do you believe a 7 year old can sin?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Bingo. That is the solution to the whole controversy, and if Calvin and Edwards had realized and acknowledged that, there would have been a whole lot less arguments over the intervening centuries.

Yeah, actually, this is an Arminian belief, as well. Billy thinks I got it from Mormonism, but I have actually been espousing Arminian belief on this subject.

Calvin was still very "Catholic" in his belief about babies. He believed in a need for infant baptism, because of imputed original sin.

The Reformed Church I've been attending goes all the way back to the Reformation and it is also very "Catholic". They do infant baptisms, as well.

I was wondering if the Presbyterians do? Will have to look that up.

[Libby]

Appears that Orthodox Presbyterians (who are Reformed) do infant baptisms, as well. Interesting. They believe in original sin, just as the Roman Catholics do.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Appears that Orthodox Presbyterians (who are Reformed) do infant baptisms, as well. Interesting. They believe in original sin, just as the Roman Catholics do.

Why the need to baptize an infant if the infant did no sin?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

The Reformed Church I've been attending goes all the way back to the Reformation and it is also very "Catholic". They do infant baptisms, as well.

The Reformed churches do not believe that all infants are saved by baptism because many who are baptized as infants will never accept Christ.

BTW Arminians and Calvisist agree that a person is saved when he places his faith in Christ.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Why the need to baptize an infant if the infant did no sin?

Catholics and Reformed believers, believe as you do, that infants are born in sin.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Catholics and Reformed believers, believe as you do, that infants are born in sin.

So do you think that the Reformed churches believe that all those who were baptized as infants will be saved and that all infants who die without baptism will be sent to Hell?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So do you think that the Reformed churches believe that all those who were baptized as infants will be saved and that all infants who die without baptism will be sent to Hell?

No...I didn't say that. But, the Reformed do believe in original sin, as Catholics do. Their reason for baptizing infants is different. It's more of a dedication and promise to raise the child within the church. Catholic belief is similar, in that baptism is also a promise and dedication....but, they believe it also has a salvific effect on a baby. They belief baptism is necessary. Reformed do not.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It's more of a dedication and promise to raise the child within the church.

So it in no way means that infants who are baptized will be saved when they are old enough to make that decision. What relevancy does this have on our discussion?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Catholic belief is similar, in that baptism is also a promise and dedication....but, they believe it also has a salvific effect on a baby

So a Catholic baby who is baptized and dies will go to heaven and a baby who is not baptized and dies will go to hell? Can you show me where this is taught in the Bible?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So a Catholic baby who is baptized and dies will go to heaven and a baby who is not baptized and dies will go to hell? Can you show me where this is taught in the Bible?

I never said it was taught in the Bible. It's not my belief. Am I a Catholic??

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

I never said it was taught in the Bible. It's not my belief. Am I a Catholic??

So what does this have to do with anything that we are talking about?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So what does this have to do with anything that we are talking about?

It just sprung out of the conversation about babies. No biggy, Billy. sheesh.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Libby

Show me where the Bible says that babies commit personal sin.

.

all have sinned.....

Not "some" have sinned

Not "Just older people have sinned"

Not "Just people who reach the age of 13 sin"

But the bible teaches the simple fact that 'all' have sinned....




the bible is not concerned that this troubles you....a fact is a fact, and the bible simply states the facts.

This question is a matter of understanding the text and is not subject to a vote of what people want the Bible to say....
It does not matter what the polling numbers might say, it only matters what the bible says....

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

So what do you do with all of the verses that say that we ALL sin?

All ONE verse? Actually, not even one. Rom. 3:23 doesn't say that we all sin. The author wrote that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It doesn't say that 2000 years in the future, all unborn babies WILL sin.

So, to answer your question "what do you do with all of the verses that say that we ALL sin?" I guess the answer is: I don't have to do anything with all of the verses that don't exist in the Bible.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

All ONE verse? Actually, not even one. Rom. 3:23 doesn't say that we all sin. The author wrote that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It doesn't say that 2000 years in the future, all unborn babies WILL sin.

And what do you think ALL have sinned means?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

all have sinned.....

Not "some" have sinned

Not "Just older people have sinned"

Not "Just people who reach the age of 13 sin"

But the bible teaches the simple fact that 'all' have sinned....




the bible is not concerned that this troubles you....a fact is a fact, and the bible simply states the facts.

This question is a matter of understanding the text and is not subject to a vote of what people want the Bible to say....
It does not matter what the polling numbers might say, it only matters what the bible says....

It is figurative. We are all born with the inclination towards sin (sin nature). That doesn't mean we are actually sinning while still in the womb. Do you believe an embryo can sin? It's human! I mean, really, can we please get beyond this ridiculousness?!