was lucifer created evil?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

And what do you think ALL have sinned means?

I can start the process of figuring out what it means, by realizing what it doesn't mean.
It obviously can't mean literally every person who has ever been conceived and who ever will be conceived, because if "all" meant literally "all" than it would be saying that Jesus sinned, since Jesus is a person, a person who was conceived and was born and had an apparently normal infancy, crying, getting hungry, wanting sleep, and all the other "selfish" things that infants do that Calvinists apparently believe to be sins but aren't.

So, once we know that "all" doesn't mean literally all because we have come up with at least one person who it doesn't include, we can conclude that "all" could have been hyperbole like when you say "Everyone's getting on my nerves today" it doesn't mean literally everyone. Then we can continue to use common sense and read the verse in context. Maybe it referred to all adults in the 1st century who were accountable for any acts of rebellion against God they had committed.
It couldn't have included David's baby, for the reasons I already mentioned.
It's logical to conclude that since babies can't repent, they can't sin, and that if babies can't sin then they don't sin, and therefore were not the beings Paul had in mind when he said that all have sinned. He had to be referring to all who have the ability to sin and who have made a conscious choice to rebel against what they know God's will to be, or, if they don't know about God, against their conscience.

That's a good start toward understanding what "all have sinned" was intended to mean.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It is figurative.

There is no reason to ***ume that the verses were meant to be figurative. You don't like what they say so you are making up any excuse you can to discredit it.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I can start the process of figuring out what it means, by realizing what it doesn't mean.
It obviously can't mean literally every person who has ever been conceived and who ever will be conceived, because if "all" meant literally "all" than it would be saying that Jesus sinned, since Jesus is a person, a person who was conceived and was born and had an apparently normal infancy, crying, getting hungry, wanting sleep, and all the other "selfish" things that infants do that Calvinists apparently believe to be sins but aren't.

So, once we know that "all" doesn't mean literally all because we have come up with at least one person who it doesn't include, we can conclude that "all" could have been hyperbole like when you say "Everyone's getting on my nerves today" it doesn't mean literally everyone. Then we can continue to use common sense and read the verse in context. Maybe it referred to all adults in the 1st century who were accountable for any acts of rebellion against God they had committed.
It couldn't have included David's baby, for the reasons I already mentioned.
It's logical to conclude that since babies can't repent, they can't sin, and that if babies can't sin then they don't sin, and therefore were not the beings Paul had in mind when he said that all have sinned. He had to be referring to all who have the ability to sin and who have made a conscious choice to rebel against what they know God's will to be, or, if they don't know about God, against their conscience.

That's a good start toward understanding what "all have sinned" was intended to mean.

Why didn't Paul simply say that some but not all people sin?

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

There is no reason to ***ume that the verses were meant to be figurative. You don't like what they say so you are making up any excuse you can to discredit it.

It's not that I don't like it. I don't really care.

I just find your particular interpretation to be unrealistic, since I know for a fact, through experience that fetuses and newborn babes do not personally sin. WILL they sin, eventually? Yes, absolutely. We all sin. (except for Jesus)

[Libby]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I can start the process of figuring out what it means, by realizing what it doesn't mean.
It obviously can't mean literally every person who has ever been conceived and who ever will be conceived, because if "all" meant literally "all" than it would be saying that Jesus sinned, since Jesus is a person, a person who was conceived and was born and had an apparently normal infancy, crying, getting hungry, wanting sleep, and all the other "selfish" things that infants do that Calvinists apparently believe to be sins but aren't.

So, once we know that "all" doesn't mean literally all because we have come up with at least one person who it doesn't include, we can conclude that "all" could have been hyperbole like when you say "Everyone's getting on my nerves today" it doesn't mean literally everyone. Then we can continue to use common sense and read the verse in context. Maybe it referred to all adults in the 1st century who were accountable for any acts of rebellion against God they had committed.
It couldn't have included David's baby, for the reasons I already mentioned.
It's logical to conclude that since babies can't repent, they can't sin, and that if babies can't sin then they don't sin, and therefore were not the beings Paul had in mind when he said that all have sinned. He had to be referring to all who have the ability to sin and who have made a conscious choice to rebel against what they know God's will to be, or, if they don't know about God, against their conscience.

That's a good start toward understanding what "all have sinned" was intended to mean.

Exactly. Now, that is a sensible and realistic approach to this question. Thanks, Jeff.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

It's not that I don't like it. I don't really care.

I know you don't care, if you really did care about God's word you wouldn't reject it like you have.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I know you don't care, if you really did care about God's word you wouldn't reject it like you have.

You are very dishonestly twisting my words.

You know very well that I meant, I do not care if babies sin or not. Not that I don't care about proper interpretation of God's Word (which I DO...very much). You need to turn that particular mirror on yourself. I think you are more interested in appearing "right" than you are in proper interpretation of the word.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

I know you don't care, if you really did care about God's word you wouldn't reject it like you have.

That is fallacious to accuse her that way. You don't have the authority to say that if a person has a different interpretation of a Bible verse than you do that it means the other person doesn't care about God's word "because if they cared about it they would have an identical interpretation" to yours. That is just lazy, sloppy, arrogant, prejudiced reasoning.

There could easily be people in this world who care as much as, or more than you do about God's word, who reach a different interpretation of it than you do. Their exegetical skills may be inferior to yours, or may be superior to yours. Either way, the fact that they reached a different interpretation of a verse than you did, might have absolutely nothing to do with their degree of care about God's word. What if they are mentally retarded, and therefore struggle with coming to a correct understanding of a verse's intended meaning? Do you really think that means they DON'T CARE about God's word?

Like I said: Flawed reasoning, and insulting to everyone who understands a verse differently from you, regardless whether their interpretation is correct or incorrect.

[Libby]

He must not be aware that there are tons of Christians out there who interpret those verses slight different than he does. I've linked to at least three of them.

He'll just reject it, because only people who agree with Billy are "true Christians".

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

That is fallacious to accuse her that way. You don't have the authority to say that if a person has a different interpretation of a Bible verse than you do that it means the other person doesn't care about God's word "because if they cared about it they would have an identical interpretation" to yours. That is just lazy, sloppy, arrogant, prejudiced reasoning.

Did you miss her quote?

Originally Posted by Libby

It's not that I don't like it. I don't really care.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

He must not be aware that there are tons of Christians out there who interpret those verses slight different than he does. I've linked to at least three of them.

The one quote didn't agree with you and you know it. You seem to have an extreme case of selective reading with your quote and the scriptures.

Repost the other quotes that you are referring to and lets take a look at them.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

He must not be aware that there are tons of Christians out there who interpret those verses slight different than he does.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone


Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.


Go ahead and give me your interpretation of the four verses above. (BTW I have given you multiple verses and when I ask you for verses you refuse to do so).

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Matthew 19:14
14 But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Were these special children? Or was he talking about all children?


Matthew 18:3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Here are two verses that say nothing about whether or not infants sin. Are these the verses that you are speaking about?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Did you miss her quote?

I didn't miss it. I just realize that it's not God's word that she said she didn't care about.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I didn't miss it. I just realize that it's not God's word that she said she didn't care about.

Yet we were disciussing God's word.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Yet we were disciussing God's word.

Jeff is right, though. I didn't (and wouldn't) say that I don't care about God's word. I was talking about not caring whether or not babies sin.

Looking at my words, I can see how that might have been misconstrued, though.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Libby

Jeff is right, though. I didn't (and wouldn't) say that I don't care about God's word. I was talking about not caring whether or not babies sin.

But this is a Biblical topic that revolves around multiple verses that say we all sin, verses that you and Jeff are denying.

[Libby]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But this is a Biblical topic that revolves around multiple verses that say we all sin, verses that you and Jeff are denying.

I'm not denying it, Billy. I know that we all sin. But, saying that a new born commits personal sin just flies in the face of any sense of logic....which is why I have to conclude that those verses are somewhat figurative.

I do believe babies are born with a sin nature, though, that reveals itself fairly quickly...long before they are accountable.

I think we have all had our say on this issue and I would really like to put it to rest. Our differences are minute, really, and not worth all of this effort, IMO.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Psalm 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone
Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

When Jesus tells you "Well done, you GOOD and faithful servant" are you gonna tell Him that He's wrong because the Bible says that no one is good?"
And what about the places where the Bible mentions people who were righteous, and where it says that only the righteous will enter the kingdom of God?

"you ignore scripture, you throw out sections of the Bible that you don't like"

[Libby]

Righteousness comes from faith.

And, faith, is a gift of God.

"But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:5

" "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God." Ephesians 2:8

Just sayin'...

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

When Jesus tells you "Well done, you GOOD and faithful servant" are you gonna tell Him that He's wrong because the Bible says that no one is good?"
And what about the places where the Bible mentions people who were righteous, and where it says that only the righteous will enter the kingdom of God?

"you ignore scripture, you throw out sections of the Bible that you don't like"

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Can you tell me who is good according to Jesus?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone

Can you tell me who is good according to Jesus?

Sure: Every person who He will tell "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Sure: Every person who He will tell "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone



Who is good according to Jesus in verse 18?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone
Who is good according to Jesus in verse 18?

So you had to change the question?

Genesis 1:31
God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.
What did God say in v. 31 about everything He created?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So you had to change the question?

You never answered my question.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone
Who is good according to Jesus in verse 18?