was lucifer created evil?

[akaSeerone]

I did address it.....why can't you see it?

Everything God created was perfect. Satan was created perfect with free will. He chose to defy God. In doing so he became sin. What is so hard to understand about that?

You are blaming God where there is no blame.

AND you can't limit God to man's standards and weaknesses.

Andy

[akaSeerone]

Nope....I don't go chasing shadows.

The pre existence is a myth...an anti-Christ pagan occult belief and never happened.

You got a link then give it or stand refuted.

Andy

[stemelbow]

That didn't address my actual argument though. I am suggesting that everything Satan did only occurred because first conceived of his every evil act before creating him ex nihilo. do you deny that God knew every single act satan would do before creating satan?

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

The point is obvious, JD. If the ideas existed among ancient Jews then it may have been the doctrine long lost among Jews. But defining the doctrine of the ancient church hasn't proven so easy.

love,
stem

Thanks for the typical Mormon "apologetic", stem:

MAY HAVE BEEN.

All you've got is SPECULATION.

Weak, dude. Very weak AND useless.

[stemelbow]

Thanks for the typical throwing out any desperate attempt to change the subject when confronted with questions about your evan religious beliefs.

All you've got is a way to escape responding to questions and arguments, illogically, in hopes no one notices your inability to deal with the ramifications of your beliefs.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Let's consider this question in light of the mainstream concept of creation. Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil? Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth? That is both our spirits and our physical bodies, but Lucifer was created only as spirit? Why did God decide to create those who would only be spirits and those who would have physical bodies and spirit bodies?

Looking forward to an enlightening discussion on the topic.

love,
stem

Considering that the couple of mainstreamers who did address the topic answered that God created lucifer to do good, we ought to find out if their reasoning holds up. Let us consider...

According to mainstream christian thought, God created Lucifer out of nothing. He also knew all the deeds Lucifer would do before creating him out of nothing. He knew the timing of creating lucifer before the others would cause Lucifer to be the very evil one. The very one to influence Eve causing the downfall of mankind. He knew all of this before designing the creature Lucifer from complete scratch. He knew what it would take that would cause Lucifer to rebel. The design of lucifer was the cause of his own choices. Worse than that, his own choices were initially conceived of by god before Lucifer was created. For instance, God knew Lucifer would rebel before Lucifer was created. God could have either not created Lucifer at all, knowing full well that by creating him the rest of his creations would suffer thanks to the fall, or could have waited to created Lucifer after all other creations. The reasons for God's timing, no mainstreamer knows. And its rather beside the point, but an interesting point anyway. knowing the fact that God knew of Lucifer's choices long before creating the character out of scratch and that all of Lucifer's choices were first conceived of by God, one wonders what line of reasoning a mainstreamer must follow in order to arrive at the conclusion that Lucifer was created to do good. It seems rather obvious for the mainstreamer to conclude Lucifer was created to do good is a leap away from the rather obvious logical conclusion of their belief system.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

So, stemmy...are you therefore positing the Mormon god didn't know about Lucifer's future actions? Or that the Mormon god is hardly sovereign and couldn't do a thing?
Or if he knew the future, he coulda not had cosmic sex with one of his celestials sweetie and not procreate this little bad spirit child of his??

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Thanks for the typical throwing out any desperate attempt to change the subject when confronted with questions about your evan religious beliefs.

All you've got is a way to escape responding to questions and arguments, illogically, in hopes no one notices your inability to deal with the ramifications of your beliefs.

love,
stem

Your apolo-joke-tic was NOTHING more than SPECULATION, stemmy. If anyone's desperate, it's YOU dude. You've got NOTHING.

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

According to mainstream christian thought, God created Lucifer out of nothing. He also knew all the deeds Lucifer would do before creating him out of nothing. He knew the timing of creating lucifer before the others would cause Lucifer to be the very evil one. The very one to influence Eve causing the downfall of mankind. He knew all of this before designing the creature Lucifer from complete scratch. He knew what it would take that would cause Lucifer to rebel. The design of lucifer was the cause of his own choices. Worse than that, his own choices were initially conceived of by god before Lucifer was created. For instance, God knew Lucifer would rebel before Lucifer was created. God could have either not created Lucifer at all, knowing full well that by creating him the rest of his creations would suffer thanks to the fall, or could have waited to created Lucifer after all other creations. The reasons for God's timing, no mainstreamer knows. And its rather beside the point, but an interesting point anyway. knowing the fact that God knew of Lucifer's choices long before creating the character out of scratch and that all of Lucifer's choices were first conceived of by God, one wonders what line of reasoning a mainstreamer must follow in order to arrive at the conclusion that Lucifer was created to do good. It seems rather obvious for the mainstreamer to conclude Lucifer was created to do good is a leap away from the rather obvious logical conclusion of their belief system.

---God logic, Stem, that is a keeper for future use.

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Considering that the couple of mainstreamers who did address the topic answered that God created lucifer to do good, we ought to find out if their reasoning holds up. Let us consider...

According to mainstream christian thought, God created Lucifer out of nothing. He also knew all the deeds Lucifer would do before creating him out of nothing. He knew the timing of creating lucifer before the others would cause Lucifer to be the very evil one. The very one to influence Eve causing the downfall of mankind. He knew all of this before designing the creature Lucifer from complete scratch. He knew what it would take that would cause Lucifer to rebel. The design of lucifer was the cause of his own choices. Worse than that, his own choices were initially conceived of by god before Lucifer was created. For instance, God knew Lucifer would rebel before Lucifer was created. God could have either not created Lucifer at all, knowing full well that by creating him the rest of his creations would suffer thanks to the fall, or could have waited to created Lucifer after all other creations. The reasons for God's timing, no mainstreamer knows. And its rather beside the point, but an interesting point anyway. knowing the fact that God knew of Lucifer's choices long before creating the character out of scratch and that all of Lucifer's choices were first conceived of by God, one wonders what line of reasoning a mainstreamer must follow in order to arrive at the conclusion that Lucifer was created to do good. It seems rather obvious for the mainstreamer to conclude Lucifer was created to do good is a leap away from the rather obvious logical conclusion of their belief system.

love,
stem

Ok I will bite. But first please answer one question the best way you can.

Why is it that God has to be logical according mans ideas of logic?

Kindest regards,
Sentinus

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---God logic, Stem, that is a keeper for future use.

Yup, it was very good logic, reasoned out by an obviously intelligent man. He should definitely keep it as it may win him alot of arguments, but it will lead no one including himself or you to a closer relationship with God, Nor, will it ever increase your understanding of Him. And why my friend does God have to be logical according to mans simple standards?

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

Yup, it was very good logic, reasoned out by an obviously intelligent man. He should definitely keep it as it may win him alot of arguments, but it will lead no one including himself or you to a closer relationship with God

---If we, via good reasoning, can sift through religious doctrines, and be able to discard the incorrect ones, I'd say that is a good thing, a step in the direction toward being closer to God.

And why my friend does God have to be logical according to mans simple standards?

--Great question that I have answered before:

1. The good ideas about logic that we have, probably CAME from God. So our logic is probably similar to God's logic--part of our being made in His image, perhaps.

2. If God's logic were alien to ours, and God therefore thinks and acts illogically by our standards, then our existence here would become somewhat of a joke: Are the things we are doing pleasing God, or angering Him? Because by OUR logic, our obedience should please Him. But if His logic is not like ours, then it would mean that our obeying Him actually angers Him, therefore we should not obey Him. See how that argument makes no sense? God is the epitome of logic, just like He is the epitome (the acme, actually) of love, kindness, wisdom, and all the other GOOD virtues. What Satan does is illogical.

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---If we, via good reasoning, can sift through religious doctrines, and be able to discard the incorrect ones, I'd say that is a good thing, a step in the direction toward being closer to God.


--Great question that I have answered before:

1. The good ideas about logic that we have, probably CAME from God. So our logic is probably similar to God's logic--part of our being made in His image, perhaps.

2. If God's logic were alien to ours, and God therefore thinks and acts illogically by our standards, then our existence here would become somewhat of a joke: We would never know whether the things we were doing were pleasing God, or angering Him, because by OUR logic, our obedience should please Him. But if His logic is not like ours, then it would meant that our obeying Him actually angers Him, therefore we should not obey Him. See how that argument makes no sense? God is the epitome of logic, just like He is the epitome (the acme, actually) of love, kindness, wisdom, and all the other GOOD virtues. What Satan does is illogical.

Originally Posted by NRA

1. The good ideas about logic that we have, probably CAME from God. So our logic is probably similar to God's logic--part of our being made in His image, perhaps.

That of course would be a very human response.. What we logically think is right/good based on logic established by man MUST be the same logic God uses, hence, why we logically concluded what we did.

Originally Posted by NRA

2. If God's logic were alien to ours, and God therefore thinks and acts illogically by our standards, then our existence here would become somewhat of a joke:

Not necessarily thats only how you as a finite man see it..

Originally Posted by NRA

We would never know whether the things we were doing were pleasing God, or angering Him, because by OUR logic, our obedience should please Him.

Exactly, what makes you think that God wants our obedience? We as men see obedience as something that is pleasing to us so therefore we extend that desire to God.

Originally Posted by NRA

But if His logic is not like ours, then it would meant that our obeying Him actually angers Him, therefore we should not obey Him.

That would seem logical if God indeed "wants" something..

Originally Posted by NRA

See how that argument makes no sense?

I can see how either argument makes no sense, or absolute sense. Since we are both finite men making finite arguments of course we can understand finite logic. We just need to accept one thing as an absolute regarding God and then let our minds run wild with what we call logic.

Originally Posted by NRA

]God is the epitome of logic, just like He is the epitome (the acme, actually) of love, kindness, wisdom, and all the other GOOD virtues

That ***umes much, firstly that what we consider to be "good" God also considers as such.

Originally Posted by NRA

What Satan does is illogical. [/COLOR]

Or it is very logical depending on how you look at it..

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

Even if all it was was speculation, it still a fact that you are attempting to deflect from the topic instead of address and engage. You've got nothing.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

So, stemmy...are you therefore positing the Mormon god didn't know about Lucifer's future actions?

Of course not.

Or that the Mormon god is hardly sovereign and couldn't do a thing?

Of course not.

Or if he knew the future, he coulda not had cosmic sex with one of his celestials sweetie and not procreate this little bad spirit child of his??

Not at all. Your effort to avoid the argument is telling though. Thanks.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

I don't think God has to be logical according to man's ideas of logical necessarily. Any mainstreamer could think God to be the least logical character ever, as far as I'm concerned.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

Yup, it was very good logic, reasoned out by an obviously intelligent man. He should definitely keep it as it may win him alot of arguments, but it will lead no one including himself or you to a closer relationship with God, Nor, will it ever increase your understanding of Him.

I disagree completely. I'm not that intelligent....but I disagree more so with your reasoning that it will not bring me to a closer relationship with God, nor will it every increase my understanding of HIm. To know God is a great purpose of our existence, or to learn to know Him. Even if mainstreamers are right about their ideas of God, which seems impossible to me, it is beneficial to realize the logic conclusions of the beliefs mainstreamers hold demonstrate God is either deceptive or illogical. Either way, its that part about getting to know Him that's important.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I disagree completely. I'm not that intelligent....but I disagree more so with your reasoning that it will not bring me to a closer relationship with God, nor will it every increase my understanding of HIm. To know God is a great purpose of our existence, or to learn to know Him. Even if mainstreamers are right about their ideas of God, which seems impossible to me, it is beneficial to realize the logic conclusions of the beliefs mainstreamers hold demonstrate God is either deceptive or illogical. Either way, its that part about getting to know Him that's important.

love,
stem

In my opinion we will never come close to understanding God as "He" truly is until we remove our preconstructed blinders and logical conclusions at the door.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Even if all it was was speculation, it still a fact that you are attempting to deflect from the topic instead of address and engage. You've got nothing.

love,
stem

I disagree my friend. (If indeed this was intended for me)

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

It was a response to JD.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

In my opinion we will never come close to understanding God as "He" truly is until we remove our preconstructed blinders and logical conclusions at the door.

Okee...dokeee. What blinders are you referring to? I can ***ume what logical conclusions you are alluding to, right?

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Okee...dokeee. What blinders are you referring to? I can ***ume what logical conclusions you are alluding to, right?

love,
stem

Originally Posted by Stem

What blinders are you referring to?

The blinders of absolutism, denominationalism, logic and personal interpretation.

Originally Posted by Stem

I can ***ume what logical conclusions you are alluding to, right?

No not at all. I wasn't alluding to anything, simply offering my opinion on what causes all of us to stumble in understanding God.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Okee...dokeee. What blinders are you referring to? I can ***ume what logical conclusions you are alluding to, right?

love,
stem

Thanx.

regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

So do some people understand God more than others?

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

So do some people understand God more than others?

love,
stem

They may think so. I do think that in this instance personal effort does equal personal reward. I think the reason so many people seek to follow denominations and religious leaders is because they are to lazy to do the work themselves. It should be IMO the goal of every religious leader to no longer be needed, and those that seek to know God should seek to know him intimately and personally in their own and very individual way through prayer, fasting, and study. Sadly too few in all denominations are to legalistic and simple in their thinking. They go to church on Sunday and think the walk is done.

Regards,
Sentinus