Thanks.
My question is, and I'll revise it for you...do you think some people understand God more than others?
love,
stem
Thanks.
My question is, and I'll revise it for you...do you think some people understand God more than others?
love,
stem
On a whole sure. But that's including people who do not seek a relationship with him into the equation.Originally Posted by Stemdo you think some people understand God more than others?
I think it is more of a sliding rule. President Monson for example would be someone you may consider has a better knowledge of God than you do. I would disagree, as it is clear to me that you have made these issues a matter of deep personal study and thought. I would consider you to be his equal. (Unless of course I have you pegged all wrong) However, I would agree very quickly that someone of the Evangelical persuasion who spends no time pondering such things when compared to Monson knows less. I don't think its a denomination or set of beliefs that equals knowledge, as much as it is personal time, study and prayer.
Kind regards,
Sentinus
Thanks, S. I like your thoughts here and agree in part--as if I've thought these things through or have dealt as intimately with God as Monson. No big deal there since neither of us are privy to understanding Monson's dealings with God. I get your point, though, in that its all very possible.
love,
stem
Oh, right...the "OP". Well, now, stemster...God created Lucifer as GOOD.
That was the subject, right?
Still gonna speculate though, aren't you??
Be careful whom you put up on a pedestal. They are bound to fall off.Thanks, S. I like your thoughts here and agree in part--as if I've thought these things through or have dealt as intimately with God as Monson. No big deal there since neither of us are privy to understanding Monson's dealings with God. I get your point, though, in that its all very possible.
love,
stem
Kind regards,
Sentinus
'Tis obvious the speculation is coming from you. I am merely following the rules of logic as applied to your belief system. So far, all you have is your own statement while neglecting my argument. The bald JD...its a typical sight.
love,
stem
Sure thing.
love,According to mainstream christian thought, God created Lucifer out of nothing. He also knew all the deeds Lucifer would do before creating him out of nothing. He knew the timing of creating lucifer before the others would cause Lucifer to be the very evil one. The very one to influence Eve causing the downfall of mankind. He knew all of this before designing the creature Lucifer from complete scratch. He knew what it would take that would cause Lucifer to rebel. The design of lucifer was the cause of his own choices. Worse than that, his own choices were initially conceived of by god before Lucifer was created. For instance, God knew Lucifer would rebel before Lucifer was created. God could have either not created Lucifer at all, knowing full well that by creating him the rest of his creations would suffer thanks to the fall, or could have waited to created Lucifer after all other creations. The reasons for God's timing, no mainstreamer knows. And its rather beside the point, but an interesting point anyway. knowing the fact that God knew of Lucifer's choices long before creating the character out of scratch and that all of Lucifer's choices were first conceived of by God, one wonders what line of reasoning a mainstreamer must follow in order to arrive at the conclusion that Lucifer was created to do good. It seems rather obvious for the mainstreamer to conclude Lucifer was created to do good is a leap away from the rather obvious logical conclusion of their belief system.
stem
Liking your thoughts does not equate to putting you on a pedestal in my mind. I see no reason to cause you a major fall personally.
love,
stem
I was not ***uming a place for myself on a pedestal, but was making an observation that you may be putting Pres. Monson on one. Sorry I wasn't clear.
Kind regards,
Sentinus
I know I was just messing around with your comments.
love,
stem
It's NOT speculation that God created Lucifer as GOOD, stem. He created the cosmos, the world, everything and declared it, "GOOD". Now anything else is pure SPECULATION on the Mormon's part.
And speculation is all you've got, stem, 'cause the bible doesn't support your bizarre beliefs.
Your contention is what then? You posit virtually everything Mos are supposed to believe about the Mormon deity....so what's your problem, stem??
Did the Mormo deity purposely create Lucifer as EVIL??
Don't be silly, JD. You often boast puffing up your chest about how much you know about mormonism because you were once a mormon but you think LDS are supposed to believe the very things I listed? You're mixed up, JD. The argument presented is critical of your concept of God, how he created, and the ramifications of that.
To LDS did God create ex nihilo?
Was Lucifer created at a specific time, according to LDS belief, that would place him in the time and place of Eden?
TO LDS did God design Lucifer from scratch knowing full well he would be the very evil one?
To LDS did God originally conceive of each and every evil act that Lucifer would do?
The answer to these questions for LDS is no. The problem is such is not the case for mainstreamers if one takes their beliefs to their logical conclusions.
love,
stem
Originally Posted by Father_JD
Your contention is what then? You posit virtually everything Mos are supposed to believe about the Mormon deity....so what's your problem, stem??
Did the Mormo deity purposely create Lucifer as EVIL??
Your "concept" of God is supposed to be BIBLICAL, stemster, so what you're finally admitting to is that your "concept of God" is NOT BIBLICAL. Do I have that right?Don't be silly, JD. You often boast puffing up your chest about how much you know about mormonism because you were once a mormon but you think LDS are supposed to believe the very things I listed? You're mixed up, JD. The argument presented is critical of your concept of God, how he created, and the ramifications of that.
To LDS did God create ex nihilo?
What does this have to do with Lucifer being created good or evil, stem?
Was Lucifer created at a specific time, according to LDS belief, that would place him in the time and place of Eden?
What does this have to do with Lucifer being created good or evil, stem?
TO LDS did God design Lucifer from scratch knowing full well he would be the very evil one?
So you're admitting that the Mormon deity is NOT OMNISCIENT??? Your pee-poor deity didn't know the future??????
To LDS did God originally conceive of each and every evil act that Lucifer would do?
What makes you think Christians believe this, stemmy?? Somehow you confuse ex nihilo creation with the initial free agency God gave to both angels and humans, stem. This is called a "NON-SEQUITUR"...the one does not logically connect with the other.
The answer to these questions for LDS is no. The problem is such is not the case for mainstreamers if one takes their beliefs to their logical conclusions.
You don't know logic when it stares you in the face, stemmster. You're kiddin' yourself if you think you do.
Last edited by Father_JD; 11-25-2009 at 06:07 PM.
To LDS did God originally conceive of each and every evil act that Lucifer would do?Are you going on record now saying, JD, that God did not know of every single act Lucifer would do before He created him out of nothing? You see, if God created Lucifer out of nothing and knew the evil he would do before he was created, then each and every deed Lucifer did was initially conceived of by God--not Lucifer. It has to be so, according to your belief system, right?What makes you think Christians believe this, stemmy?? Somehow you confuse ex nihilo creation with the initial free agency God gave to both angels and humans, stem. This is called a "NON-SEQUITUR"...the one does not logically connect with the other.
love,
stem
---Well, yeah, it has to be so when followed to its inescapable logical conclusion, but FJD & co. don't like to follow it, don't want to think about it. They want to escape it.Are you going on record now saying, JD, that God did not know of every single act Lucifer would do before He created him out of nothing? You see, if God created Lucifer out of nothing and knew the evil he would do before he was created, then each and every deed Lucifer did was initially conceived of by God--not Lucifer. It has to be so, according to your belief system, right?
Oh,stemmy...when are you gonna learn about SECONDARY CAUSES. Of course God KNEW the evil Lucifer would do. He declares "the end from the beginning". WHY you refuse to believe the Bible is curious since this IS what the Bible declares, stem.Are you going on record now saying, JD, that God did not know of every single act Lucifer would do before He created him out of nothing? You see, if God created Lucifer out of nothing and knew the evil he would do before he was created, then each and every deed Lucifer did was initially conceived of by God--not Lucifer. It has to be so, according to your belief system, right?
love,
stem
Go look up "secondary causes"...just because God KNOWS THE EVIL YOU HAVE DONE (or I for that matter) does NOT MEAN HE CONCEIVED OUR SINS.
God's omniscience does NOT necessarily MEAN that God "conceived" or "condoned" anyone's sins or evil, jeff.
I can't help it that your "god" is nothing more than a demi-god like the ancient Greeks used to worship, an IMPOTENT deity.
I noticed you decided not to answer my questions or for that matter address my argument. Again, JD is left to hide behind qualifying terms thinking they somehow solve his problems. Yet they don't obviously since he fails to address the points and questions.
love,
stem
I answered your questions, stem. You don't like the answer:
SECONDARY CAUSES.
Instead of being typically ******** of anything other than "Mormon", I suggest you go look up the term in a solid, Biblically-based theological dictionary.
JD,
Let's see. I ask:
Your answer: Secondary causes? Yes or no questions are now answered by the phrase secondary causes? Its an adorable qualifier you think gets you out of this mess, for sure, JD, but it really is not answering the questions.Are you going on record now saying, JD, that God did not know of every single act Lucifer would do before He created him out of nothing? You see, if God created Lucifer out of nothing and knew the evil he would do before he was created, then each and every deed Lucifer did was initially conceived of by God--not Lucifer. It has to be so, according to your belief system, right?
Do you not see how, according to your belief system, God had to have been the very one who conceived of Lucifer's evil deeds long before Lucifer did them? This would have to be considering the logical conclusions of your belief system, JD.
love,
stem
Secondary causes would be causes that were not caused by the one UNcaused Cause, right, FJD?