was lucifer created evil?

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

Spoken like a true atheists stem!

You want to call yourself Christian and yet you have the gall to judge God and blame Him because someone he spoke into existence and was given free will became evil! Shame on you mormon!!!

The only thing that can be traced back to God is that He gave "Lucifer" free will.

Lucifer chose to sin...it was not programed into him.

Ezekiel 28:13-15: “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of they tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou are the anointed cherub that covereth and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee”.

Your post is full of nothing but human reasoning...learn to read what the Bible says about given situations and quit with the humanistic hogwash...Jesus dealt with that when He said to Peter.....

Matthew 16

21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Until you are saved and have the infilling of the Holy Spirit you will never understand the things of God and are only spinning your wheels to your hurt.

It was Lucifer's choice to become evil and God had a way to turn that to His advantage.

God did not choose for Lucifer to become evil, that was Lucifer's choice, so quit blaming God.

Pity the blind mormon!

Andy

I know what the BIble says that's why I find your belief system so problematic, Andy. My question is in relation to the belief system you guys have..not what the Bible says. The questioning and argumentation I've raised shows your belief system to be problematic, yet you and your partners refuse to engage the argument, for some reason. I wonder why that is.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Yours is nothing but a sop****ric attempt at "philosophizing", second-guessing God, stem.

Your arguments are NOT founded in scripture, but in Mormon SPECULATION.

The same arguments you're supposedly attacking Christianity with are likewise VALID for Mormon presuppositions.

You supposedly believe that the Mormon god is OMNISCIENT, so why don't you apply your own line of reasoning as to WHY the mormo-god saw Lucifer's actions in advance and let them happen???

Contrary to your beliefs, whether Lucifer were created ex nihilo, or "begotten" as some kind of spirit baby is IRRELEVANT to the issue.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Yours is nothing but a sop****ric attempt at "philosophizing", second-guessing God, stem.

Your arguments are NOT founded in scripture, but in Mormon SPECULATION.

The same arguments you're supposedly attacking Christianity with are likewise VALID for Mormon presuppositions.

You supposedly believe that the Mormon god is OMNISCIENT, so why don't you apply your own line of reasoning as to WHY the mormo-god saw Lucifer's actions in advance and let them happen???

Contrary to your beliefs, whether Lucifer were created ex nihilo, or "begotten" as some kind of spirit baby is IRRELEVANT to the issue.

Sadly, JD, you don't even know the issue. The argument has nothing to do with whether God knew in advance and yet was able to stop Lucifer. It goes much deeper than that, but for some reason, not even needing to be mentioned, you refuse to engage the argument. You see for me, it was merely that God knew Lucifer would rebel, even though Lucifer already was existing at the time. For you, God conceived of Lucifer's rebellion long before Lucifer ever was. Its quite a big difference, JD, but its quite understandable that you would buck the logic and whine about something else in hopes to avoid the awfulness of your belief system. You aren't the only one hiding, JD.

love,
stem

[nrajeff]

FJD, who is the author of the Star Wars saga? (George Lucas, in case you have been in a monastery for the past 30 years) Who is responsible for the parts in the Star Wars universe where Palpatine, Anakin--ANY of the bad guys--"chooses" EVIL? THE AUTHOR, FJD. Do you really propose that those characters--who Lucas created ex nihilo--are responsible for how they turned out? Hello, Lucas created them to be either good guys or bad guys--vessels destined, by the end of the series, to be either vessels for glory or for destruction. JUST LIKE YOUR VERSION OF GOD conceived, designed, and wrote the screenplay for the characters in this universe. The AUTHOR of the universe, its first cause, is the one 100% responsible for what happens in his creation.

How can this keep sailing over your head? (Except on purpose, of course) Imagine George Lucas refusing to take responsibility for the actions of the characters he created! "Oh, sure, I created them all from nothing, but they have free will to choose good or evil...somehow...it's not my fault, I just created 'em and let 'em go like windup toys with free will, even though I, as THE AUTHOR of the whole series, wrote the entire story. Don't come blaming me if you don't like the choices that Vader or Boba Fett made...I'm just the AUTHOR! Like Pontius Pilate, I wash my hands of responsibility for what they did...."

Of course you don't like facing this reality--who would?--but your world-view makes God the author of all the evil in what He creates because, by your own definition, HE is the AUTHOR of the whole shebang.

[stemelbow]

savvy illustration, Jeff.

I'm not even a star wars fan but I do know Anakin became bad at some point. Didn't he also express remorse or sumpin? Anyway, the character himself was a product of George Lucas' mind, just like Lucifer was such of God's mind. God knew his script before he was created out of the nothingness. It makes me wonder, according to JD's mixed up belief system, why didn't God create JD and stuff him in lucifer's place. Surely JD wouldn't have sought out to tempt Eve in some hope to cause the downfall of all of mankind, right? JD?

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Sadly, JD, you don't even know the issue. The argument has nothing to do with whether God knew in advance and yet was able to stop Lucifer. It goes much deeper than that, but for some reason, not even needing to be mentioned, you refuse to engage the argument. You see for me, it was merely that God knew Lucifer would rebel, even though Lucifer already was existing at the time. For you, God conceived of Lucifer's rebellion long before Lucifer ever was. Its quite a big difference, JD, but its quite understandable that you would buck the logic and whine about something else in hopes to avoid the awfulness of your belief system. You aren't the only one hiding, JD.

love,
stem

Then WHY did the Mormo-god ALLOW it to happen??? And lest you forget, God did NOT conceive of Lucifer's rebellion no more than the Mormo-god did.

You're clueless as to the problems you've created for yourself with "eternal beings" OTHER THAN GOD HIMSELF.

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Then WHY did the Mormo-god ALLOW it to happen??? And lest you forget, God did NOT conceive of Lucifer's rebellion no more than the Mormo-god did.

Not so, as I already explained, JD. In your belief system God conceived of evil before anyone else ever was. In LDS belief system God merely knew that evil was already practiced for eternity past, Lucifer was only another evil prac***ioner in a long line. God did not conceive of Lucifer's deeds, they already were for eternity. Hope this helps your illogic.

You're clueless as to the problems you've created for yourself with "eternal beings" OTHER THAN GOD HIMSELF.

Not really.

love,
stem

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

According to mainstream christian thought, God created Lucifer out of nothing. He also knew all the deeds Lucifer would do before creating him out of nothing. He knew the timing of creating lucifer before the others would cause Lucifer to be the very evil one. The very one to influence Eve causing the downfall of mankind. He knew all of this before designing the creature Lucifer from complete scratch. He knew what it would take that would cause Lucifer to rebel. The design of lucifer was the cause of his own choices. Worse than that, his own choices were initially conceived of by god before Lucifer was created. For instance, God knew Lucifer would rebel before Lucifer was created. God could have either not created Lucifer at all, knowing full well that by creating him the rest of his creations would suffer thanks to the fall, or could have waited to created Lucifer after all other creations. The reasons for God's timing, no mainstreamer knows. And its rather beside the point, but an interesting point anyway. knowing the fact that God knew of Lucifer's choices long before creating the character out of scratch and that all of Lucifer's choices were first conceived of by God, one wonders what line of reasoning a mainstreamer must follow in order to arrive at the conclusion that Lucifer was created to do good. It seems rather obvious for the mainstreamer to conclude Lucifer was created to do good is a leap away from the rather obvious logical conclusion of their belief system.

---God logic, Stem, that is a keeper for future use.

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---God logic, Stem, that is a keeper for future use.

Yup, it was very good logic, reasoned out by an obviously intelligent man. He should definitely keep it as it may win him alot of arguments, but it will lead no one including himself or you to a closer relationship with God, Nor, will it ever increase your understanding of Him. And why my friend does God have to be logical according to mans simple standards?

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

Yup, it was very good logic, reasoned out by an obviously intelligent man. He should definitely keep it as it may win him alot of arguments, but it will lead no one including himself or you to a closer relationship with God

---If we, via good reasoning, can sift through religious doctrines, and be able to discard the incorrect ones, I'd say that is a good thing, a step in the direction toward being closer to God.

And why my friend does God have to be logical according to mans simple standards?

--Great question that I have answered before:

1. The good ideas about logic that we have, probably CAME from God. So our logic is probably similar to God's logic--part of our being made in His image, perhaps.

2. If God's logic were alien to ours, and God therefore thinks and acts illogically by our standards, then our existence here would become somewhat of a joke: Are the things we are doing pleasing God, or angering Him? Because by OUR logic, our obedience should please Him. But if His logic is not like ours, then it would mean that our obeying Him actually angers Him, therefore we should not obey Him. See how that argument makes no sense? God is the epitome of logic, just like He is the epitome (the acme, actually) of love, kindness, wisdom, and all the other GOOD virtues. What Satan does is illogical.

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---If we, via good reasoning, can sift through religious doctrines, and be able to discard the incorrect ones, I'd say that is a good thing, a step in the direction toward being closer to God.


--Great question that I have answered before:

1. The good ideas about logic that we have, probably CAME from God. So our logic is probably similar to God's logic--part of our being made in His image, perhaps.

2. If God's logic were alien to ours, and God therefore thinks and acts illogically by our standards, then our existence here would become somewhat of a joke: We would never know whether the things we were doing were pleasing God, or angering Him, because by OUR logic, our obedience should please Him. But if His logic is not like ours, then it would meant that our obeying Him actually angers Him, therefore we should not obey Him. See how that argument makes no sense? God is the epitome of logic, just like He is the epitome (the acme, actually) of love, kindness, wisdom, and all the other GOOD virtues. What Satan does is illogical.

Originally Posted by NRA

1. The good ideas about logic that we have, probably CAME from God. So our logic is probably similar to God's logic--part of our being made in His image, perhaps.

That of course would be a very human response.. What we logically think is right/good based on logic established by man MUST be the same logic God uses, hence, why we logically concluded what we did.

Originally Posted by NRA

2. If God's logic were alien to ours, and God therefore thinks and acts illogically by our standards, then our existence here would become somewhat of a joke:

Not necessarily thats only how you as a finite man see it..

Originally Posted by NRA

We would never know whether the things we were doing were pleasing God, or angering Him, because by OUR logic, our obedience should please Him.

Exactly, what makes you think that God wants our obedience? We as men see obedience as something that is pleasing to us so therefore we extend that desire to God.

Originally Posted by NRA

But if His logic is not like ours, then it would meant that our obeying Him actually angers Him, therefore we should not obey Him.

That would seem logical if God indeed "wants" something..

Originally Posted by NRA

See how that argument makes no sense?

I can see how either argument makes no sense, or absolute sense. Since we are both finite men making finite arguments of course we can understand finite logic. We just need to accept one thing as an absolute regarding God and then let our minds run wild with what we call logic.

Originally Posted by NRA

]God is the epitome of logic, just like He is the epitome (the acme, actually) of love, kindness, wisdom, and all the other GOOD virtues

That ***umes much, firstly that what we consider to be "good" God also considers as such.

Originally Posted by NRA

What Satan does is illogical. [/COLOR]

Or it is very logical depending on how you look at it..

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

Yup, it was very good logic, reasoned out by an obviously intelligent man. He should definitely keep it as it may win him alot of arguments, but it will lead no one including himself or you to a closer relationship with God, Nor, will it ever increase your understanding of Him.

I disagree completely. I'm not that intelligent....but I disagree more so with your reasoning that it will not bring me to a closer relationship with God, nor will it every increase my understanding of HIm. To know God is a great purpose of our existence, or to learn to know Him. Even if mainstreamers are right about their ideas of God, which seems impossible to me, it is beneficial to realize the logic conclusions of the beliefs mainstreamers hold demonstrate God is either deceptive or illogical. Either way, its that part about getting to know Him that's important.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I disagree completely. I'm not that intelligent....but I disagree more so with your reasoning that it will not bring me to a closer relationship with God, nor will it every increase my understanding of HIm. To know God is a great purpose of our existence, or to learn to know Him. Even if mainstreamers are right about their ideas of God, which seems impossible to me, it is beneficial to realize the logic conclusions of the beliefs mainstreamers hold demonstrate God is either deceptive or illogical. Either way, its that part about getting to know Him that's important.

love,
stem

In my opinion we will never come close to understanding God as "He" truly is until we remove our preconstructed blinders and logical conclusions at the door.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

In my opinion we will never come close to understanding God as "He" truly is until we remove our preconstructed blinders and logical conclusions at the door.

Okee...dokeee. What blinders are you referring to? I can ***ume what logical conclusions you are alluding to, right?

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Okee...dokeee. What blinders are you referring to? I can ***ume what logical conclusions you are alluding to, right?

love,
stem

Originally Posted by Stem

What blinders are you referring to?

The blinders of absolutism, denominationalism, logic and personal interpretation.

Originally Posted by Stem

I can ***ume what logical conclusions you are alluding to, right?

No not at all. I wasn't alluding to anything, simply offering my opinion on what causes all of us to stumble in understanding God.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

So do some people understand God more than others?

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

So do some people understand God more than others?

love,
stem

They may think so. I do think that in this instance personal effort does equal personal reward. I think the reason so many people seek to follow denominations and religious leaders is because they are to lazy to do the work themselves. It should be IMO the goal of every religious leader to no longer be needed, and those that seek to know God should seek to know him intimately and personally in their own and very individual way through prayer, fasting, and study. Sadly too few in all denominations are to legalistic and simple in their thinking. They go to church on Sunday and think the walk is done.

Regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

Thanks.

My question is, and I'll revise it for you...do you think some people understand God more than others?

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Thanks.

My question is, and I'll revise it for you...do you think some people understand God more than others?

love,
stem

Originally Posted by Stem

do you think some people understand God more than others?

On a whole sure. But that's including people who do not seek a relationship with him into the equation.

I think it is more of a sliding rule. President Monson for example would be someone you may consider has a better knowledge of God than you do. I would disagree, as it is clear to me that you have made these issues a matter of deep personal study and thought. I would consider you to be his equal. (Unless of course I have you pegged all wrong) However, I would agree very quickly that someone of the Evangelical persuasion who spends no time pondering such things when compared to Monson knows less. I don't think its a denomination or set of beliefs that equals knowledge, as much as it is personal time, study and prayer.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

Thanks, S. I like your thoughts here and agree in part--as if I've thought these things through or have dealt as intimately with God as Monson. No big deal there since neither of us are privy to understanding Monson's dealings with God. I get your point, though, in that its all very possible.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Thanks, S. I like your thoughts here and agree in part--as if I've thought these things through or have dealt as intimately with God as Monson. No big deal there since neither of us are privy to understanding Monson's dealings with God. I get your point, though, in that its all very possible.

love,
stem

Be careful whom you put up on a pedestal. They are bound to fall off.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

Liking your thoughts does not equate to putting you on a pedestal in my mind. I see no reason to cause you a major fall personally.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Liking your thoughts does not equate to putting you on a pedestal in my mind. I see no reason to cause you a major fall personally.

love,
stem

I was not ***uming a place for myself on a pedestal, but was making an observation that you may be putting Pres. Monson on one. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

I know I was just messing around with your comments.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I know I was just messing around with your comments.

love,
stem

Fair enough

Hope it was fun..

Kind regards,
Sentinus