was lucifer created evil?

[stemelbow]

As far as I understand, Jeff, secondary causes would be causes not directly caused by the one uncaused cause, but only indirectly caused by such an one through those creations he initially caused to exist. Thus, Satan's temptation of Eve is only a secondary cause of God's creation. In JD parlance God indirectly caused the secondary cause. Somehow, JD, thinks this qualifying term gets him out of actually dealing with the arguments presented. Yet, in no way does the concept even address my argument, to his frustration.

love,
stem

[nrajeff]

Thanks for clarifying the concept, Stem. So FJD's theology is still in the same dilemma as in my parable of the designer- creator- programmer- ***embler of the robot that, once, ***embled and activated, is guaranteed to start doing evil. How can such a designer- creator- programmer- ***embler NOT be 100% responsible for the evil that ensues? It's not as if he didn't know what would happen when the robot was unleashed on the universe. It's not as if he wasn't able to program it differently. It's not as if someone was forcing him to build the robot. And it's not as if he couldn't have turned it OFF the millisecond before it started following its programming.

Like we said: We are just forcing these people to follow their own beliefs to the logical, inescapable, unpleasant conclusion.

[Father_JD]

jeff...we've been through this I don't know how many times.

Think...SECONDARY CAUSES.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

JD,

Let's see. I ask:



Your answer: Secondary causes? Yes or no questions are now answered by the phrase secondary causes? Its an adorable qualifier you think gets you out of this mess, for sure, JD, but it really is not answering the questions.

Do you not see how, according to your belief system, God had to have been the very one who conceived of Lucifer's evil deeds long before Lucifer did them? This would have to be considering the logical conclusions of your belief system, JD.

love,
stem

Your full of non-sequiturs, stem. Just because God created Lucifer does NOT NECESSARILY FOLLOW THAT GOD HIMSELF CONCEIVED OF LUCIFER'S REBELLION, ETC.

So can the mormo-deity ROY control Satan...or not? Or do you have a totally wuss-god you worship??

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Your full of non-sequiturs, stem. Just because God created Lucifer does NOT NECESSARILY FOLLOW THAT GOD HIMSELF CONCEIVED OF LUCIFER'S REBELLION, ETC.

I hear your cop out and wonder why you still refuse to engage, JD. You say, "just because God created Lucifer..." which is missing the point. God, according to your beliefs system didn't just create Lucifer but created him out of complete nothingness. And before creating him out of complete nothingness God knew all things Lucifer would do, right? (let's see you answer some direct questions this time) Thus, Lucifer wasn't EVEN when God knew what Lucifer was going to do. Following the logical conclusion of your belief system, then, God was the One who originally conceived of Lucifer's evil deeds, correct? If not, please explain. Let's not just p*** it off with a wave of your hand again, avoiding the questions and topics.

So can the mormo-deity ROY control Satan...or not? Or do you have a totally wuss-god you worship??

We can wait till Jesus returns and puts him to shame. Obviously, you don't know much about LDS teaching if you aren't aware of God being able to control satan. Sorry, JD, you need to re-check your bragged about LDS membership, since you don't know much about LDS belief.

love,
stem

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

jeff...we've been through this I don't know how many times.

----Yes, wanna know why? Because you refuse to confront the ramifications of your theology. We take you, step by step, down the path of your beliefs, but when we get to a certain point--the point where it's about to get ugly for your beliefs--you say "All right, hold it right there! Don't take another step!" It's time to take some more steps, FJD. After all, sooner or later, one of your fellow Episcopalians could be enough of a thinker to see the lack of clothing on the Emperor, and ask you these same questions. If you give them the same evasions you give us, they aren't gonna be any more satisfied than we are.

Think...SECONDARY CAUSES.

---Yeah, been there. Stem is exactly right: The "secondary causes" escape clause don't work for you, because when ALL of your beliefs are taken into account, they leave God excuse-less. That's why your systematic theology is broken: If just one of the critical parts in it is a defective part, the whole system shuts down. Lemme explain it again:

Your supers***ion about God being absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign, combined with your supers***ion that all His creating was done ex nihilo, equals the dilemma you have placed Him in. You have made Him the cause of all secondary causes, both all the good and all the bad ones. That's because you believe that there is nothing He doesn't know, nothing He can't do, and no one who can boss Him around or otherwise make Him change His mind. He calls ALL the shots. As Stem said, you believe that He knew, even before Satan did (even before Satan existed), what Satan would think. So Satan's thoughts were God's thoughts FIRST. And if God didn't LIKE what Satan would eventually think, God was free to never create Satan, and He was free to create a Satan that would have DIFFERENT thoughts. If your God is unable to alter the future that He hasn't even created yet but KNOWS He will create, how omnipotent IS He, really?


Ever see the movie "The ****erfly Effect"? It shows how a human going back in time to try to fix bad events--to prevent them from ever happening--only creates other bad events. Why? Because your average human doesn't KNOW what the side-effects of his actions will result in. So any meddling is likely to be at least as disastrous as doing nothing. But God, so you believe, DOES know literally EVERY side-effect of every possible thing He might conceivably do. That, combined with the other supers***ions you have about Him, leaves Him stuck with 100% of the responsibility for any evil thing that any of His creations does.

You can't run--or hide (thanks to us)--from the ramifications of your beliefs about God, FJD.

[Father_JD]

Yes, wanna know why? Because you refuse to confront the ramifications of your theology. We take you, step by step, down the path of your beliefs, but when we get to a certain point--the point where it's about to get ugly for your beliefs--you say "All right, hold it right there! Don't take another step!" It's time to take some more steps, FJD. After all, sooner or later, one of your fellow Episcopalians could be enough of a thinker to see the lack of clothing on the Emperor, and ask you these same questions. If you give them the same evasions you give us, they aren't gonna be any more satisfied than we are.

What you still don't understand, jeff, is that your premises are in error, therefore the "ramifications" you think support your theology are INVALID.

---Yeah, been there. Stem is exactly right: The "secondary causes" escape clause don't work for you, because when ALL of your beliefs are taken into account, they leave God excuse-less. That's why your systematic theology is broken: If just one of the critical parts in it is a defective part, the whole system shuts down. Lemme explain it again:

You have to REFUTE "secondary causes" with valid reasoning instead of saying, "it doesn't work".

Your supers***ion about God being absolutely omniscient and omnipotent and sovereign,

"Supers***ion", jeff??? That IS what the Bible teaches about God: Omniscient, omnipotent, and sovereign.

(Now then...your blind belief in the BOM and the BOA is nothing but supers***ion because there's NOTHING to support either documents as real works of antiquity, let alone, "scripture")

Your problem is not understanding just what the three "omnis" MEAN or represent...hence you erect nothing but straw men such as:

"If God is OMNIPOTENT, then can He create a rock which is too heavy for himself to lift"???

The answer is NO. So the question is: Is God omnipotent in an ABSOLUTE way? And according to Mormon thinking, this is what you believe about the Biblical doctrines.

...combined with your supers***ion that all His creating was done ex nihilo, equals the dilemma you have placed Him in. You have made Him the cause of all secondary causes, both all the good and all the bad ones. That's because you believe that there is nothing He doesn't know, nothing He can't do, and no one who can boss Him around or otherwise make Him change His mind.

Of course there's NOTHING that He doesn't know, but not necessarily "nothing He can't do", because GOD CAN NOT LIE for example. Here's your "absolutist" qualfiers which are making you horribly CONFUSED, jeff.

He calls ALL the shots. As Stem said, you believe that He knew, even before Satan did (even before Satan existed), what Satan would think. So Satan's thoughts were God's thoughts FIRST.

No, they were Satan's thoughts and HIS ALONE, jeff. Just because God can "declare the end from the beginning", being omnscient does NOT mean that He is the author of evil. This is where you ERR in your thinking.

And if God didn't LIKE what Satan would eventually think, God was free to never create Satan, and He was free to create a Satan that would have DIFFERENT thoughts. If your God is unable to alter the future that He hasn't even created yet but KNOWS He will create, how omnipotent IS He, really?

You don't understand, jeff. God IS THE AUTHOR OF THE FUTURE. So it's not a case of God "unable to alter the future".

Your problem has ALWAYS been SECOND GUESSING GOD...ALWAYS speculating as to this or that. REFUSING to believe what He Himself declares about Himself.

Ever see the movie "The ****erfly Effect"? It shows how a human going back in time to try to fix bad events--to prevent them from ever happening--only creates other bad events. Why? Because your average human doesn't KNOW what the side-effects of his actions will result in. So any meddling is likely to be at least as disastrous as doing nothing. But God, so you believe, DOES know literally EVERY side-effect of every possible thing He might conceivably do. That, combined with the other supers***ions you have about Him, leaves Him stuck with 100% of the responsibility for any evil thing that any of His creations does.

One could make (at the most) a case for God being INDIRECTLY responsible, yes. But where does this leave the Mormon deity, jeff??

Impotent?
Not knowing?

Don't you see you're creating more problems for yourself...a theology which is at its heart UNBIBLICAL???

You can't run--or hide (thanks to us)--from the ramifications of your beliefs about God, FJD.

And what about the ramifications regarding your beliefs about God:

Impotent?
Not knowing?
Merely a demi-god like the Greeks and Romans believed in?
A God who's still "progressing"?
An imperfect deity?

You'd better think this through, jeff.

[Father_JD]

My questions were rhetorical, stem. Look up the word, "rhetorical", ok? Then maybe you'll understand such p***ages as from *** when God asks him, "Where were YOU when I created...etc"???

God did NOT conceive Lucifer's evil deeds. He FORSAW THEM. He's NOT the originator of them.

This you refuse to understand.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I don't think God has to be logical according to man's ideas of logical necessarily. Any mainstreamer could think God to be the least logical character ever, as far as I'm concerned.

love,
stem

Uh...God is the AUTHOR of Logic, stem. In fact, I'd go as far to say that it's a very attribute of His.

[stemelbow]

God did NOT conceive Lucifer's evil deeds. He FORSAW THEM. He's NOT the originator of them.

This you refuse to understand.

Then edumicate me. My goodness. It couldn't be that hard coudl it? So you say even though God knew all of Lucifer's deeds before Lucifer existed God did not originally conceive of those deeds, right? Then who did? Who originally conceived of Lucifer's deeds? Of course Lucifer couldn't have been the conceiver of them because God already knew them before Lucifer ever was, right?

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Coming from someone who is so illogical, JD, that doesn't mean much

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Coming from someone who is so illogical, JD, that doesn't mean much

love,
stem

LOL.

Says the one who can believe in two mutually-exclusive truth claims at the same time!!!!

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Then edumicate me. My goodness. It couldn't be that hard coudl it? So you say even though God knew all of Lucifer's deeds before Lucifer existed God did not originally conceive of those deeds, right? Then who did? Who originally conceived of Lucifer's deeds? Of course Lucifer couldn't have been the conceiver of them because God already knew them before Lucifer ever was, right?

love,
stem

Lucifer conceived His own ideas and committed his own deeds.

Now, if you half-understand that scripture declares that God is NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL,

Then you should understand that God is NOT THE AUTHOR of either Lucifer's rebellion or anyone elses.

You're confused like many people who think because God knows every outcome, that makes people merely "puppets".

Bad logic...of course what else could one expect from someone "Mormon"??

[nrajeff]

God is NOT THE AUTHOR of either Lucifer's rebellion or anyone elses.
You're confused like many people who think because God knows every outcome, that makes people merely "puppets".

---Um, you said that

God IS THE AUTHOR OF THE FUTURE.

--If God authored it, then He OWNS it, FJD. Your illogic has become glaringly apparent now. Imagine telling the author of ANYTHING "You are not responsible for how the thing you authored turned out." If God authored the evil things that Satan (or any of us) would do in the future, then who is DIRECTLY responsible for that future, FJD?

Q.E.D. Game, set and match.

[Russianwolfe]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Um, you said that



--If God authored it, then He OWNS it, FJD. Your illogic has become glaringly apparent now. Imagine telling the author of ANYTHING "You are not responsible for how the thing you authored turned out." If God authored the evil things that Satan (or any of us) would do in the future, then who is DIRECTLY responsible for that future, FJD?

Q.E.D. Game, set and match.

And verified by this member of the Committee on Logical Debate.

Congratulations, NRAJeff.

Marvin

[stemelbow]

No better reply possible, Jeff. Thanks. JD's been stuck at this point before, and he never fails to run at the very point his illogic is exposed. Ain't that right JD? it seems you still think God creating evil indirectly and the concept of secondary causes makes everything just go away. You actually still think your theology is found in the Bible?

His lack of logical thinking runs that deep.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

LOL.

Says the one who can believe in two mutually-exclusive truth claims at the same time!!!!

The very one who believes two mutually-exclusive truth claims at the same time, just said "LOL". Its good to hear you concede the point that you have to be illogical to accept the mainstream concept of truth. Thanks again, JD.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

The very one who believes two mutually-exclusive truth claims at the same time, just said "LOL". Its good to hear you concede the point that you have to be illogical to accept the mainstream concept of truth. Thanks again, JD.

love,
stem

Hardly, stem. It's ILLOGICAL to believe the BOA is "scripture" when the m****cript has been OBJECTIVELY DETERMINED TO BE A PAGAN DOCUMENT AND NOT WRITTEN BY THE PATRIARCH ABRAHAM.

Your fee-e-e-e-e-e-elings trump logic, stem. That's the very sad truth of the matter.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

---Um, you said that



--If God authored it, then He OWNS it, FJD. Your illogic has become glaringly apparent now. Imagine telling the author of ANYTHING "You are not responsible for how the thing you authored turned out." If God authored the evil things that Satan (or any of us) would do in the future, then who is DIRECTLY responsible for that future, FJD?

Q.E.D. Game, set and match.

Don't dance your little victory dance yet, jeff. God is indeed the AUTHOR of the future whether that be by direct, sovereign actions...OR of HIS PERMISSIVE WILL...meaning He sovereignly ALLOWS actions, events unfold according to His OWN PURPOSES.

Got it...finally??

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

No better reply possible, Jeff. Thanks. JD's been stuck at this point before, and he never fails to run at the very point his illogic is exposed. Ain't that right JD? it seems you still think God creating evil indirectly and the concept of secondary causes makes everything just go away. You actually still think your theology is found in the Bible?

His lack of logical thinking runs that deep.

love,
stem

Several questions need to be addressed, stem:

1. Is GOD omniscient?

Yes or No.

2. Does God "declare the end from the beginning"?

Yes or No.

3. Is God sovereign?

Yes or No.

4. Does the bible say that God is the AUTHOR OF EVIL?

Yes or No.

Therein lies the answers and not your lame-o Mormon SPECULATION.

[stemelbow]

Just like, JD. Run away from arguments presented in hopes no one notices his sleight of hand trickery. answering these questions doesn't get you out of the hole you're in due to your fallacious theological beliefs, JD. It becomes obvious when you deflect and avoid the arguments that you know you have nothing in response aside from these silly games you love. Have fun...

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

Don't dance your little victory dance yet, jeff. God is indeed the AUTHOR of the future whether that be by direct, sovereign actions...OR of HIS PERMISSIVE WILL...meaning He sovereignly ALLOWS actions, events unfold according to His OWN PURPOSES.

Got it...finally??

Sadly, JD, something you keep avoiding, not only does he allow those actions, but if he never conceived of the evil actions long before anything else was other than Him, then none of those actions would be done now. You see, they all are traced back to his conception. He, according to your bankrupt belief system if thought through to its logical conclusion, is the very one who started all of this, and some he punishes and others he doesn't. This helps explain the problem initially uncovered and completely neglected by your camp to this point, according to the logical conclusions of your belief system, even if God said Lucifer was good after initially creating him, He also knew exactly what, when, how and why Lucifer would no longer be good. Essentially He created Lucifer out of nothing with the mechanisms to become evil. He put every piece of him together, while knowing which pieces would cause the timely rebellion. On top of that, each of Lucifer's actions can be traced, logically, back to your god's conceptions. Seeing as God knew the future, He thought of Lucifer's bad deeds long before Lucifer did, and if God did not think of Lucifer bad deeds long before Lucifer did, then Those bad deeds would never have happened. There really is no other conclusion to draw, unless of course, like you, we run from logic and plain jump to another set of conclusions, like you, hoping to defiantly run from what our brains are capable of explaining. Run JD run.

You understand logic, don't you, JD? If not, read up a bit on the concept.

love,
stem

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Sadly, JD, something you keep avoiding, not only does he allow those actions, but if he never conceived of the evil actions long before anything else was other than Him, then none of those actions would be done now. You see, they all are traced back to his conception. He, according to your bankrupt belief system if thought through to its logical conclusion, is the very one who started all of this, and some he punishes and others he doesn't. This helps explain the problem initially uncovered and completely neglected by your camp to this point, according to the logical conclusions of your belief system, even if God said Lucifer was good after initially creating him, He also knew exactly what, when, how and why Lucifer would no longer be good. Essentially He created Lucifer out of nothing with the mechanisms to become evil. He put every piece of him together, while knowing which pieces would cause the timely rebellion. On top of that, each of Lucifer's actions can be traced, logically, back to your god's conceptions. Seeing as God knew the future, He thought of Lucifer's bad deeds long before Lucifer did, and if God did not think of Lucifer bad deeds long before Lucifer did, then Those bad deeds would never have happened. There really is no other conclusion to draw, unless of course, like you, we run from logic and plain jump to another set of conclusions, like you, hoping to defiantly run from what our brains are capable of explaining. Run JD run.

You understand logic, don't you, JD? If not, read up a bit on the concept.

love,
stem

Spoken like a true atheists stem!

You want to call yourself Christian and yet you have the gall to judge God and blame Him because someone he spoke into existence and was given free will became evil! Shame on you mormon!!!

The only thing that can be traced back to God is that He gave "Lucifer" free will.

Lucifer chose to sin...it was not programed into him.

Ezekiel 28:13-15: “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold; the workmanship of they tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou are the anointed cherub that covereth and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee”.

Your post is full of nothing but human reasoning...learn to read what the Bible says about given situations and quit with the humanistic hogwash...Jesus dealt with that when He said to Peter.....

Matthew 16

21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

23Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Until you are saved and have the infilling of the Holy Spirit you will never understand the things of God and are only spinning your wheels to your hurt.

It was Lucifer's choice to become evil and God had a way to turn that to His advantage.

God did not choose for Lucifer to become evil, that was Lucifer's choice, so quit blaming God.

Pity the blind mormon!

Andy

[Father_JD]

Yours is nothing but a sop****ric attempt at "philosophizing", second-guessing God, stem.

Your arguments are NOT founded in scripture, but in Mormon SPECULATION.

The same arguments you're supposedly attacking Christianity with are likewise VALID for Mormon presuppositions.

You supposedly believe that the Mormon god is OMNISCIENT, so why don't you apply your own line of reasoning as to WHY the mormo-god saw Lucifer's actions in advance and let them happen???

Contrary to your beliefs, whether Lucifer were created ex nihilo, or "begotten" as some kind of spirit baby is IRRELEVANT to the issue.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Just like, JD. Run away from arguments presented in hopes no one notices his sleight of hand trickery. answering these questions doesn't get you out of the hole you're in due to your fallacious theological beliefs, JD. It becomes obvious when you deflect and avoid the arguments that you know you have nothing in response aside from these silly games you love. Have fun...

love,
stem

Uh...it's apparent to everyone here that you REFUSE to engage these questions because they are BIBLICAL and can't conform to Mormon SPECULATION, stemmy.