was lucifer created evil?

[akaSeerone]

You never applied appropriately to any part of this thread.

You have been shown that everything that God created was perfect and that the angels and mankind were created with free will and that evil was a by product of creation but you just close your eyes to the truth and go on and on with your games.

You have no argument and have been proven wrong, so admit your mistake and learn from your error or move along and quit deflecting this thread.

Andy

[stemelbow]

Here, Andy, I'm willing to hold your hand through this process, okay?

Before creating Lucifer ex nihilo, did God know each and every act Lucifer would do?

Could God have created Lucifer to not do evil, or could God have decided to just not create Lucifer knowing he was just going to be evil anyway?

I'll continue in this way, hoping you still answer the above questions....Let's see you address the argument this time okay? God created Lucifer out of nothing...He knew before creating Lucifer out of nothing all things Lucifer would do. All things Lucifer would do, are because God conceived of those things. You see if God created absolutely, as your belief system would have it, then all creations He conceived of are absolutely a result of His conception. THere really is no way around this. I welcome your efforts to refute my argument. But, it seems, you and JD have failed to actually address my argument and instead have gone on with cop outs while leaving the argument untouched.

love,
stem

[akaSeerone]

What part of free will do you not get?

You have no argument...only your trying to judge God and blaming Him for what His creation does and that makes you (mod edit - an unbeliever).

This is a forum to expose the lie of mormonism....mod edit Your premise is false and has been proven wrong over and over.

WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO JUDGE GOD?

Learn to read God's one and only Word He has given us...The Bible while you have breath. As it stands, you are mormon and that makes you a non Christian without life. mod edit - No personal attacks
Repent or you will not get the reward you have been deceived to think you will get.

Andy

(Mod edit - "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you."
Luke 6:27-29

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

What part of free will do you not get?

I get it. Incidentally I also authored a thread here which presents another untouched argument in regards to the problems of free will in consideration of your belief system. If you wish you can bring up your concerns over there.

You have no argument...only your trying to judge God and blaming Him for what His creation does and that makes you a heretic.

I did post an argument...you did not, at least not yet.

This is a forum to expose the lie of mormonism....you do not make the rules here, the Christian, Jill did that, so you can continue to ask all you want....Your premise is false and has been proven wrong over and over.

No body has proven any part of my argument wrong...and you ran from answering a few questions I offered to help you engage the argument. Why is that?

WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE TO JUDGE GOD?

I don't judge God. I judge your pathetic ideas of Him.

Learn to read God's one and only Word He has given us...The Bible while you have breath. As it stands, you are mormon and that makes you a non Christian without life. A hopeless wreck.

Great...so you have decided to get to the name calling--hopeless wreck. Adorable stuff, Andy.

Repent or you will not get the reward you have been deceived to think you will get.

Precious stuff.

love,
stem

[akaSeerone]

Hey....you are the one pretending to be Christian...so yes, you are a hopelessly lost.

Andy

[Bat-Man]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

Hey....you are the one pretending to be Christian...so yes, you are a hopelessly lost.

Andy

Andy,
You're a corrupt and apostate Christian who believes you are a true Christian.

Try to not judge others based on what you REALLY are.

Okay ?

[akaSeerone]

Why do you lie like that BM?

You are neither Christian or mormon and should not even be posting here.

Besides that you have no idea what you are talking about.

And that is fact BM.

Andy

[stemelbow]

Oh, ANdy, you are a joy to have around (Russell complained in the other thread about not being liked by others, so I consoled him. I"ll do the same here since you guys seem to feel you don't get enough of it from us.) I think your attempt to bully ol' Batman right on outta here ranks up there in the top ten of posts that help out the LDS side more than hinders it.

love,
stem

[akaSeerone]

Thanks for showing everyone just how out of touch with reality one must get to try and hopelessly defend the anti-Christian lds mormon cult.

Nothing you said in your post was true.

All you did is make things up to try to make us Christians look bad, but it just shows how desperate you guys are getting and it will back fire on you.

The writing is on the wall....thanks to the internet, mormonism is on it's way out.

What you need to do is repent and ask God to forgive you and accept Jesus...THE Jesus of the Bible other wise you will remain lost.

Andy

[akaSeerone]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

I am a solid Christian in right standing with God through Jesus, the Christ.

I judge others by what the Bible say, so what you said is a lie and it will come back to haunt you.

Andy

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

Thanks for showing everyone just how out of touch with reality one must get to try and hopelessly defend the anti-Christian lds mormon cult.

Nothing you said in your post was true.

Let's see I said, "Oh, ANdy, you are a joy to have around..." But that is not true, in Andy's subjective opinion it seems.

Just for fun I also said,

"(Russell complained in the other thread about not being liked by others, so I consoled him. I"ll do the same here since you guys seem to feel you don't get enough of it from us.) I think your attempt to bully ol' Batman right on outta here ranks up there in the top ten of posts that help out the LDS side more than hinders it."

All you did is make things up to try to make us Christians look bad, but it just shows how desperate you guys are getting and it will back fire on you.

I had no intention of making anyone look bad...you're seeing that probably because of the things you are saying.

The writing is on the wall....thanks to the internet, mormonism is on it's way out.

Whooofff...what a prediction. When shall we expect this exit of mormonism deal?

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

You have no idea what you are talking about.

I am a solid Christian in right standing with God through Jesus, the Christ.

I judge others by what the Bible say, so what you said is a lie and it will come back to haunt you.

Andy

That's merely grandstanding and deflection. Good show, Andy...again you're only helping my case here.

love,
stem

[akaSeerone]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

That's merely grandstanding and deflection. Good show, Andy...again you're only helping my case here.

love,
stem

How is telling the truth "grandstanding?"

Andy

[Father_JD]

You sadly demonstrate that you don't know what you're talking about:

IF God is OMNISCIENT (which IS what the Bible teaches, stemmy), he most certainly knew that Beethoven would write his fifth symphony, and had to have known every note of it.

Whether created ex nihilo or by some cosmic sex between your Mormo-god and one of his celestial sweeties, doesn't affect the outcome.

It's IRRELEVANT.

God created Beethoven (indirectly) who in turn wrote his Fifth Symphony.

Beethoven's music is SECONDARY CREATION.

Got it? Finally?????

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I replied appropriately to your deflection of appealing to secondary causes, JD. I explained how your appeal to secondary causes does not address the thrust of my argument. To which you replied....

love,
stem

You've done no such thing, stem...only in your own mind...

[nrajeff]

Did God create Beethoven's symphonies? If Beethoven was an Evangelical, his answer would probably be "yes" since Evans typically give ALL--100%--of the credit for any good thing they do, to God and to no one else. As for other Christians, such as the LDS, I think that many if not most of them would allow for the possibility that God inspired many composers like He inspired prophets and other saints. So in the case of composers like Beethoven or Handel, an LDS person probably would have no problem saying that the inspiration for the symphonies maybe came from God. If the Evans are right, and God is the "first cause" of all that is good in this universe, when who is the first cause of all that is BAD? Who dreamed up the universe in the first place? You will never let Stem walk you toward the conclusion of where your theology logically leads, because the ramifications destroy your beliefs about God.

[akaSeerone]

lds are not Christians so you got that wrong again.

God gave Beethoven a brain....Beethoven created his own symphonies.

And Smith created an anti-Christ sham of a "religion."

Andy

[akaSeerone]

You are getting into trouble because you are ignoring what the Bible says when it refutes your false doctrine.

1.) God gave the Angels and man free will.

2.) Along with God giving Angels and man free will, God will not go back on His Word. When God declares something or creates something it is yes and Amen.

Andy

[stemelbow]

Okay I'll hold your hand through this too, Andy, just so you understand it. Your ***umption of what is truth pounded as fact, without reason or logic to back up your claims is merely grandstanding--akin to the gorilla who pounds his chest in the forest because he thinks he's the toughest.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Yes, your deflection has already been stated, JD. Its not so much that God knew the fifth symphony (BTW thanks for finally answering the question) but that the origin of the symphony is not attributed to Beethoven, according toyour belief system, but to God's conception. Remember, according to your belief system God created out of nothing. Likewise Lucifer's evil deeds did not originate anywhere but in God's conception, according to your belief system...secondary creation notwithstanding as an attempted cop out.

I know you don't get it finally, but I'll repeat it just in case something clicks. You seem to think your belief system and my belief system agree on this point. Not so, JD, for me there was plenty in existence when God initiated the creation. For you, only God existed, thus all things that came to be originated in His own conception--including Lucifer's evil and Beethoven's fifth symphony.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Andy, you are in clear disagreement with your master, JD. He says God did create Beethoven's fifth Symphony. You guys ought to get together on this.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Andy, you are in clear disagreement with your master, JD. He says God did create Beethoven's fifth Symphony. You guys ought to get together on this.

love,
stem

I said nothing of the sort. I said that God created Beethoven who in turn wrote his Fifth Symphony...

SECONDARY CREATION which you run from, stemmy.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

Did God create Beethoven's symphonies? If Beethoven was an Evangelical, his answer would probably be "yes" since Evans typically give ALL--100%--of the credit for any good thing they do, to God and to no one else. As for other Christians, such as the LDS, I think that many if not most of them would allow for the possibility that God inspired many composers like He inspired prophets and other saints. So in the case of composers like Beethoven or Handel, an LDS person probably would have no problem saying that the inspiration for the symphonies maybe came from God. If the Evans are right, and God is the "first cause" of all that is good in this universe, when who is the first cause of all that is BAD? Who dreamed up the universe in the first place? You will never let Stem walk you toward the conclusion of where your theology logically leads, because the ramifications destroy your beliefs about God.

No. Beethoven wrote his symphonies. This is called SECONDARY CREATION:

God created Beethoven who in turn created his symphonies. Why is this so hard for Mormons to understand?? Of course the "inspiration" came from God.

Your apparent DENIAL of God's OMNISCIENCE creates greater problems for you than your philosophical question regarding the nature of evil, jeff.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Yes, your deflection has already been stated, JD. Its not so much that God knew the fifth symphony (BTW thanks for finally answering the question) but that the origin of the symphony is not attributed to Beethoven, according toyour belief system, but to God's conception. Remember, according to your belief system God created out of nothing. Likewise Lucifer's evil deeds did not originate anywhere but in God's conception, according to your belief system...secondary creation notwithstanding as an attempted cop out.

I know you don't get it finally, but I'll repeat it just in case something clicks. You seem to think your belief system and my belief system agree on this point. Not so, JD, for me there was plenty in existence when God initiated the creation. For you, only God existed, thus all things that came to be originated in His own conception--including Lucifer's evil and Beethoven's fifth symphony.

love,
stem

No, the origin of Beethoven's symphonies LIE WITH BEETHOVEN. You keep failing to distinguish between omniscience and creation.

God did NOT "conceive" of evil, neither did He create it. He forsaw it and uses it FOR HIS OWN PURPOSES.

Now, is the Mormo-god omnicient or NOT???

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

No, the origin of Beethoven's symphonies LIE WITH BEETHOVEN. You keep failing to distinguish between omniscience and creation.

Let's see if your ***ertion holds up under scrutiny, JD. According to your belief system, did God know every detail of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony before Beethoven himself was created out of nothing? If so, then the actual Symphony was already known and in existence in God's conception previous to Beethoven himself. It would then, be impossible to conclude, logically anyway, that the origin of it is found within Beethoven, for God already conceived of it before Beethoven ever existed.

God did NOT "conceive" of evil, neither did He create it. He forsaw it and uses it FOR HIS OWN PURPOSES.

Now, is the Mormo-god omnicient or NOT???

Now what kind of game of deflection are you playing now? The same question I've already answered on numerous oc***ions? My goodness, JD, your desperation is telling.

So, before Lucifer or any other being could do anything evil, even before any of them/we were created, God already conceived of evil designs, the very evil designs Lucifer would do, provided Lucifer would ever be created. You seriously are running away from logic in order to avoid this conclusion, JD? Fine by me.

love,
stem