was lucifer created evil?

[Father_JD]

You're deflecting yet again:

Since you affirm that even the Mormo-god is OMNISCIENT, then even he had KNOWLEDGE of Lucifer's FUTURE rebellion, no?

Then one can apply your own accusation against your own deity:

He CONCEIVED of Lucifer's rebellion.

Do you NOW see that whether "ex nihilo" or procreating with celestial sweeties, you've got the SAME DILEMMA??

[akaSeerone]

I would like to know why they are allowed to stay here when they post such blatant lies.

He cannot defend mormonism....it is impossible to Biblically defend mormonism, so they stoop to lying and playing stooooooopid games and hope no one will notice.

I guess they forgot that God is watching.

Andy

[Sentinus]

What I think seems to be missing in all this is how central "Satan" is to the LDS plan of Salvation. One need only consider Satan's response to God in the garden as dramatized by the endowment ceremony. OR consider that without Satan Adam would never have fallen so "man may be". God in LDS theology placed two conflicting symbolic trees in the garden, the tree of knowledge and the tree of eternal life. They were already eternal beings (No need for the tree of life), and as many LDS have taught Adam and Eve were innocent like children not even knowing they were naked. Had they not partaken of the tree of knowledge they would have never been able to follow all of Gods commandments given to them upon being placed in said garden. They were commanded to multiply and replenish the Earth, to do this man HAD to fall. Adam fell that man may be remember. So in the end without Satan no fall, and without the fall no us and no need for a savior, and literally billions of unborn spirits are stuck waiting to gain physical bodies. EVIL as man calls it is central to the LDS gospel, and God within the LDS theology can NEVER conquer it. As I have been told by more than a few posters here: EVIL is an eternal thing that always existed and coexisted eternal with God. God cannot eliminate it He can only hope to thwart it by thinking two steps ahead. Yet, EVIL will always exist and has always existed outside of God's control. While Christian theology may indeed open doors that seem illogical or fallacious when taken to a worldly logical conclusion. Clearly Mormonism opens up doors that when taken to it's own logical worldly conclusions are just as illogical or even ridiculous as LDS seem to believe "Mainstream" thought on this is.

Mormonism in its attempt to answer this difficult question muddies up the waters of understanding further and in empowering man limits God. By solving one problem you create many, many, more at least in my opinion.

Kindest regards,
Sentinus

[akaSeerone]

Are you replying to me?

I was mentioning to JD that I wondered how the mormons here get away with lying the way they do, so where you came up with all you wrote is beyond me.

However a couple of things jump out at me in what you said....

Had they not partaken of the tree of knowledge they would have never been able to follow all of Gods commandments given to them upon being placed in said garden.

A simple reading of the beginning of Genesis proves that wrong, so I really do not know where you are coming from and just what you are trying to say. Adam named the animals and God walked and talked with Adam in the Garden....the one thing that is not recorded is if they had children in the Garden or just how long they were there before Adam fell, but there is absolutely nothing in Genesis to lead us to believe that Adam had to fall to be able to "keep" God's "commandments."

They were commanded to multiply and replenish the Earth, to do this man HAD to fall.

How do mormons come up with that lie?

There is nothing in the Bible to support that.

Yet, EVIL will always exist and has always existed outside of God's control.

Evil has not always existed and don't kid yourself...God has everything under control, no matter how hard Satan tries to upset the apple cart.

Ezekiel 28

11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was not created evil.

I do not see how mormonism solves any problems and their false doctrines sure do muddy up the waters.

Andy

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by akaSeerone

Are you replying to me?

I was mentioning to JD that I wondered how the mormons here get away with lying the way they do, so where you came up with all you wrote is beyond me.

However a couple of things jump out at me in what you said....


A simple reading of the beginning of Genesis proves that wrong, so I really do not know where you are coming from and just what you are trying to say. Adam named the animals and God walked and talked with Adam in the Garden....the one thing that is not recorded is if they had children in the Garden or just how long they were there before Adam fell, but there is absolutely nothing in Genesis to lead us to believe that Adam had to fall to be able to "keep" God's "commandments."

How do mormons come up with that lie?

There is nothing in the Bible to support that.

Evil has not always existed and don't kid yourself...God has everything under control, no matter how hard Satan tries to upset the apple cart.

Ezekiel 28

11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was not created evil.

I do not see how mormonism solves any problems and their false doctrines sure do muddy up the waters.

Andy

I wasn't responding to anyone in particular. I was simply jumping back in after reading the many posts since my last about 3 pages ago. I just completed my finals and now have a little free time again. (4.0 this semester never thought I would say that again LOL) Anyway hope this clarifies a little.

Originally Posted by Aka

I do not see how mormonism solves any problems

Firstly if you see no problem there of course isn't one.

Mormonism does solve some very specific problems that arise out of the theology that was preached during the 1830's and the at***ude of Americans at the time. One of which is the whole original sin thing (Thats a biggie). However, like I said in solving one problem new ones emerge, and in many instances more problems than existed before reinterpreting. LDS trade one problem for 3 or 4 in many areas of divergence with mainstream Christianity (at least this is my opinion on things.)

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

S,

Clearly Mormonism opens up doors that when taken to it's own logical worldly conclusions are just as illogical or even ridiculous as LDS seem to believe "Mainstream" thought on this is.

Mormonism in its attempt to answer this difficult question muddies up the waters of understanding further and in empowering man limits God.

ya think? Wow...I am of the opposite opinion of course. Mormonism clears up the misunderstandings that have been accepted for thousands of years. Let's consider your point further:

What I think seems to be missing in all this is how central "Satan" is to the LDS plan of Salvation.

True dat--God used Satan so the fall, which was essential, took place. But let's not get lost in the missing implication of mainstreamism either. If God did not think the fall central to His plan, then why would God, according to mainstreamism, have Satan in the garden to tempt and ultimately cause the downfall of mankind? Either way, the conclusion is the same, if you ask me. In fact, I don't see any other conclusion to make.

OR consider that without Satan Adam would never have fallen so "man may be". God in LDS theology placed two conflicting symbolic trees in the garden, the tree of knowledge and the tree of eternal life.

Good point. God, through symbolism, outlined the means to salvation even in the Garden--greatness be to Him.

They were already eternal beings (No need for the tree of life), and as many LDS have taught Adam and Eve were innocent like children not even knowing they were naked. Had they not partaken of the tree of knowledge they would have never been able to follow all of Gods commandments given to them upon being placed in said garden. They were commanded to multiply and replenish the Earth, to do this man HAD to fall. Adam fell that man may be remember. So in the end without Satan no fall, and without the fall no us and no need for a savior, and literally billions of unborn spirits are stuck waiting to gain physical bodies. EVIL as man calls it is central to the LDS gospel, and God within the LDS theology can NEVER conquer it.

I'm not sure how you conclude how LDS belief is even more ridiculous or illogical based on the above. It seems to me just the opposite. Is it worse that God provide a plan, using a rebellious one, to bring about the progress of His creations, than creating out of nothing an evil one to cause the destruction of many to most of His yet to be created out of nothing creations? Its amazing to me that anyone would conclude that mainstreamism is better in anyway. the only possible conclusion it seems to me is that mainstreamism is evil. LDS belief does not force upon God the conception of evil, nor does the Garden scenario make God out to be bad at all. Remember satan, and his designs already were, long before God formed spirits from intelligences.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

You're deflecting yet again:

Since you affirm that even the Mormo-god is OMNISCIENT, then even he had KNOWLEDGE of Lucifer's FUTURE rebellion, no?

Then one can apply your own accusation against your own deity:

He CONCEIVED of Lucifer's rebellion.

Do you NOW see that whether "ex nihilo" or procreating with celestial sweeties, you've got the SAME DILEMMA??

Wow...you have completely avoided my explanation, JD. Ex nihilo is a part of this because in LDS belief, evil designs and particularly Lucifer's evil designs existed long before God formed Lucifer, you and me into spirits. Its just lightyears away from the explanation of mainstreamism. If ya don't get the implications for each then its on you, JD. I've explained this time and again. Lucifer's rebellion, according to LDS, though previously known by God, did not originate in God's mind. But the opposite is true for the mainstream concept. Big difference.

love,
stem

[nrajeff]

Originally Posted by Father_JD

No. Beethoven wrote his symphonies.

----Evans have told me that humans do not create ANYTHING---only God, and God alone, can create, because the word create connotes making something from nothing, and only God can do that. Are you saying those Evans are wrong?

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

----Evans have told me that humans do not create ANYTHING---only God, and God alone, can create, because the word create connotes making something from nothing, and only God can do that. Are you saying those Evans are wrong?

Yes, those Evans are wrong. ALL people are involved in SECONDARY CREATION of some kind or another. "Create" does NOT necessarily connote "something from nothing".

Give me those "Evans" numbers, jeff. I'll set them straight!!

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Wow...you have completely avoided my explanation, JD. Ex nihilo is a part of this because in LDS belief, evil designs and particularly Lucifer's evil designs existed long before God formed Lucifer, you and me into spirits. Its just lightyears away from the explanation of mainstreamism. If ya don't get the implications for each then its on you, JD. I've explained this time and again. Lucifer's rebellion, according to LDS, though previously known by God, did not originate in God's mind. But the opposite is true for the mainstream concept. Big difference.

love,
stem

Uh, it's YOU who hasn't refuted MY point:

IF the Mormo-deity is OMNISCIENT, he too FORESAW LUCIFER'S REBELLION.

Therefore, you must apply the SAME standard to your own concept of deity:

The Mormo-god CONCEIVED of Lucifer's evil, etc.

Our contention is the same: Lucifer's rebellion, though previously known by God, did NOT originate in God's mind.

As I said, the issue of ex nihilo, pre-existing matter is IRRELVANT since you posit the Mormo-deity as OMNISCIENT and KNEW BEFORE HAND.

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

My point exactly, JD. There's no need to cite scripture when your belief system, particularly on this point, is so anti-biblical. ya got a problem with that? Then address the argument. I know your reason to continually avoid the topic, but its worth seeing the amount of posts you add here in hopes to add credibility to your avoidance. Its adorable if nothing more.

love,
stem

Where's YOUR citation of scripture demonstrating your wild accusations, stem? It's because you DON'T HAVE A BIBLICAL CASE FOR YOUR NONSENSICAL MORMON BELIEFS>.

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

S,



ya think? Wow...I am of the opposite opinion of course. Mormonism clears up the misunderstandings that have been accepted for thousands of years. Let's consider your point further:



True dat--God used Satan so the fall, which was essential, took place. But let's not get lost in the missing implication of mainstreamism either. If God did not think the fall central to His plan, then why would God, according to mainstreamism, have Satan in the garden to tempt and ultimately cause the downfall of mankind? Either way, the conclusion is the same, if you ask me. In fact, I don't see any other conclusion to make.



Good point. God, through symbolism, outlined the means to salvation even in the Garden--greatness be to Him.



I'm not sure how you conclude how LDS belief is even more ridiculous or illogical based on the above. It seems to me just the opposite. Is it worse that God provide a plan, using a rebellious one, to bring about the progress of His creations, than creating out of nothing an evil one to cause the destruction of many to most of His yet to be created out of nothing creations? Its amazing to me that anyone would conclude that mainstreamism is better in anyway. the only possible conclusion it seems to me is that mainstreamism is evil. LDS belief does not force upon God the conception of evil, nor does the Garden scenario make God out to be bad at all. Remember satan, and his designs already were, long before God formed spirits from intelligences.

love,
stem

Originally Posted by Stem

ya think? Wow...I am of the opposite opinion of course. Mormonism clears up the misunderstandings that have been accepted for thousands of years. Let's consider your point further:

And of course i agree it does clear up some things, but makes other things less clear, at least IMO.

Originally Posted by Stem

True dat--God used Satan so the fall, which was essential, took place. But let's not get lost in the missing implication of mainstreamism either. If God did not think the fall central to His plan, then why would God, according to mainstreamism, have Satan in the garden to tempt and ultimately cause the downfall of mankind? Either way, the conclusion is the same, if you ask me. In fact, I don't see any other conclusion to make.

And this is my point exactly BOTH systems of finite understanding have logical faults. Your God can't control Satan, but can only use the acts Satan does to bring to p*** some form of what we call good. Yet, Mormonisms God can NEVER destroy or ultimately defeat evil. Your need to take God of the hook IMO neuters Him.

Originally Posted by Stem

Good point. God, through symbolism, outlined the means to salvation even in the Garden--greatness be to Him.

I see it differently. The LDS God knowingly placed temptation in the Garden so that free will could be had. In this very act He acts as Satan would, by tempting, why else would the fruit have been so enticing. Next time you go through the endowment session pay very close attention to the dialogue between Satan and God..

Originally Posted by Stem

I'm not sure how you conclude how LDS belief is even more ridiculous or illogical based on the above. It seems to me just the opposite.

I would expect no less.

Originally Posted by Stem

Is it worse that God provide a plan, using a rebellious one, to bring about the progress of His creations, than creating out of nothing an evil one to cause the destruction of many to most of His yet to be created out of nothing creations?

Isn't it worst to have belief in a God that isn't all powerful? I see no problem with God creating that which we call in our finite view as Evil. His way is not our way. And I have no need to transfer my finite view of "right and wrong" "Good and evil" onto an all powerful creator. I need only place my faith as the created in this all knowing, all loving God to make much better decisions than I in my finite state could ever comprehend.

Originally Posted by Stem

Its amazing to me that anyone would conclude that mainstreamism is better in anyway.

Which is why you choose to reject it. That is a logical response. However just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it false.

Originally Posted by Stem

the only possible conclusion it seems to me is that mainstreamism is evil.

Hmmmmm. This conclusion is disheartening, and in no way a new response when Mainstreamism is filtered through the LDS microscope. Your church has attacked Christianity since it's inception and continues to do so everyday. I sure hope you aren't one in the camp that believes that people like Russ should simply shut up and move on.

Originally Posted by Stem

LDS belief does not force upon God the conception of evil, nor does the Garden scenario make God out to be bad at all.

But it does open up other doors of doctrinal issue that cannot be rectified once you take the control away from Him. Additionally that which we as finite beings determine is evil isn't necessarily bad at all. Let me give you an example. My Cousin was born with progeria, a disease that causes children to age 8-10 time faster than other children. (Imagine a child that ages like a Dog.) Now someone could ask "Why God Why did this happen?", and as a father I could see myself even possibly cursing God. Yet if you step outside of the emotion you can see how the creation of this person is Ultimately good. Because of this birth Thousands of people have come together in love and community to support their neighbors. Thousands have seen a PERFECT example of how to embrace life anew with inspirational zeal. Thousands have been affected by the outpouring of love and support, and in the end no one could view the creation of this child as evil when the whole is considered. You I feel are not looking at the picture BIG enough from the Mainstream perspective. You are stuck as my ****ogy goes in the cursing God stage. We as individuals stand but on the shore of the Ocean we call God. Just because it looks like the water ends a few hundred miles out and that the Earth seems to stop on the horizon doesn't mean that monster lay in wait to destroy. Nor does the fact that we have possibly ventured only a few feet out mean that the Ocean itself is only inches deep.

Originally Posted by Stem

Remember satan, and his designs already were, long before God formed spirits from intelligences.

If you say so. I believe in a God that created all and in a God that before Him nothing existed, and ultimately in a God that is in control of EVERYTHING. With your hardline stance on this issue I have to wonder what your take is on the book of ***..

All the best ,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

I already said why...its because your beliefs are so anti-biblical in this regard.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

And of course i agree it does clear up some things, but makes other things less clear, at least IMO.

Fine enough. I just don't get how you reached that conclusion. We'll explore.

And this is my point exactly BOTH systems of finite understanding have logical faults. Your God can't control Satan, but can only use the acts Satan does to bring to p*** some form of what we call good. Yet, Mormonisms God can NEVER destroy or ultimately defeat evil. Your need to take God of the hook IMO neuters Him.

huh? 'Tis a straw man to suggest to LDS God cannot control Satan. Of course He can. Wait till the thousand year reign of Christ and you'll see that. To LDS God does destroy and defeat evil...that's the whole point. Are you then suggesting that to mainstreamism God will cause evil to completely stop even in Hell? That's not the general conclusion of mainstreamism from what I've seen. If hell persists in mainstreamism, then according to your logic God can't destroy or ultimately defeat evil either.

I see it differently. The LDS God knowingly placed temptation in the Garden so that free will could be had. In this very act He acts as Satan would, by tempting, why else would the fruit have been so enticing. Next time you go through the endowment session pay very close attention to the dialogue between Satan and God..

In so thinking, it seems, you are attempting to suggest, very p***ively, that to LDS God caused the fall. If the fall was a good thing, as LDS believe, then His causing such is not a bad thing at all. Its actually a benefit for His creations.

I

sn't it worst to have belief in a God that isn't all powerful?

If we're strictly speaking philosophically, then I question whether mainstreamism's God is even close to all powerful. What's so all-powerful about a creator who creates out of nothing creatures who ultimately suffer eternally? Or who initiates the conception of evil? Remember without creating, according to the logical conclusion of mainstreamism, evil never would be if God did not originally conceive of all the evil designs that ever would be.

I see no problem with God creating that which we call in our finite view as Evil. His way is not our way. And I have no need to transfer my finite view of "right and wrong" "Good and evil" onto an all powerful creator. I need only place my faith as the created in this all knowing, all loving God to make much better decisions than I in my finite state could ever comprehend.

Such is your right. 'preciate the honesty

Which is why you choose to reject it. That is a logical response. However just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it false.

Fair enough. I would not suggest as much. Truthfully though, it does, in my mind, cause skepticism as to the truthfulness of mainstreamism.

Hmmmmm. This conclusion is disheartening, and in no way a new response when Mainstreamism is filtered through the LDS microscope. Your church has attacked Christianity since it's inception and continues to do so everyday. I sure hope you aren't one in the camp that believes that people like Russ should simply shut up and move on.

I see no reason for anyone to just shut up and move on. I state the opposite of Russell quite often around here. Keep piping up, Russ.

But it does open up other doors of doctrinal issue that cannot be rectified once you take the control away from Him. Additionally that which we as finite beings determine is evil isn't necessarily bad at all. Let me give you an example. My Cousin was born with progeria, a disease that causes children to age 8-10 time faster than other children. (Imagine a child that ages like a Dog.) Now someone could ask "Why God Why did this happen?", and as a father I could see myself even possibly cursing God. Yet if you step outside of the emotion you can see how the creation of this person is Ultimately good. Because of this birth Thousands of people have come together in love and community to support their neighbors. Thousands have seen a PERFECT example of how to embrace life anew with inspirational zeal. Thousands have been affected by the outpouring of love and support, and in the end no one could view the creation of this child as evil when the whole is considered. You I feel are not looking at the picture BIG enough from the Mainstream perspective. You are stuck as my ****ogy goes in the cursing God stage. We as individuals stand but on the shore of the Ocean we call God. Just because it looks like the water ends a few hundred miles out and that the Earth seems to stop on the horizon doesn't mean that monster lay in wait to destroy. Nor does the fact that we have possibly ventured only a few feet out mean that the Ocean itself is only inches deep.

But, even for LDS we can see the blessing of such a seeming curse. So I don't curse God at all for the particular situations of some people. Your reasoning holds true only if mainstreamism was the only option in regards to God...but its not.

If you say so. I believe in a God that created all and in a God that before Him nothing existed, and ultimately in a God that is in control of EVERYTHING. With your hardline stance on this issue I have to wonder what your take is on the book of ***..

All the best ,
Sentinus

All that you just attributed to God I believe the same--aside from the conclusion that before Him nothing existed. Remember I accept the Bible as the Word of God...true that may mean something other to me than it does to most mainstreamers, but that does not mean I do not see resolution to ***'s difficulty. God intends to test us all, and ***'s book proves that LDS tenet as much as any.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

I get your rather illogical argument, JD. Its just that such side-steps my many points. Why you keep doing that, I don't know. I don't care, frankly. I'm just hoping you catch on to the ugliness of your religious beliefs someday.

Your strawman is that God conceived of evil before Lucifer ever was, according to LDS belief. Such is not the case. You say, "The Mormo-god CONCEIVED of Lucifer's evil, etc." Such a conclusion presents us with a logical fallacy. You did not take the relevant steps to arrive at that conclusion. You are merely ***uming since God knew about it, that must mean He's the one who thought of it. Nope. Lucifer merely mimicked the evil that had already been through eternity.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

Fine enough. I just don't get how you reached that conclusion. We'll explore.



huh? 'Tis a straw man to suggest to LDS God cannot control Satan. Of course He can. Wait till the thousand year reign of Christ and you'll see that. To LDS God does destroy and defeat evil...that's the whole point. Are you then suggesting that to mainstreamism God will cause evil to completely stop even in Hell? That's not the general conclusion of mainstreamism from what I've seen. If hell persists in mainstreamism, then according to your logic God can't destroy or ultimately defeat evil either.



In so thinking, it seems, you are attempting to suggest, very p***ively, that to LDS God caused the fall. If the fall was a good thing, as LDS believe, then His causing such is not a bad thing at all. Its actually a benefit for His creations.

I

If we're strictly speaking philosophically, then I question whether mainstreamism's God is even close to all powerful. What's so all-powerful about a creator who creates out of nothing creatures who ultimately suffer eternally? Or who initiates the conception of evil? Remember without creating, according to the logical conclusion of mainstreamism, evil never would be if God did not originally conceive of all the evil designs that ever would be.



Such is your right. 'preciate the honesty



Fair enough. I would not suggest as much. Truthfully though, it does, in my mind, cause skepticism as to the truthfulness of mainstreamism.



I see no reason for anyone to just shut up and move on. I state the opposite of Russell quite often around here. Keep piping up, Russ.



But, even for LDS we can see the blessing of such a seeming curse. So I don't curse God at all for the particular situations of some people. Your reasoning holds true only if mainstreamism was the only option in regards to God...but its not.



All that you just attributed to God I believe the same--aside from the conclusion that before Him nothing existed. Remember I accept the Bible as the Word of God...true that may mean something other to me than it does to most mainstreamers, but that does not mean I do not see resolution to ***'s difficulty. God intends to test us all, and ***'s book proves that LDS tenet as much as any.

love,
stem

http://www.tangle.com/view_video?vie...eeklytopvideos


In this video I can see how God could use what we would determine as Evil to again reach out to all. The God I worship controls everything. He creates Tornadoes, He allows murder to occur, He uses death to bring life, In ALL things He is reaching out to us. I understand the LDS perspective as I once embraced it, BUT to me the idea that Satan controls the evil and God then bends that evil to meet His will doesn't bring me peace, or solace. What brings me personally peace is to look at the Tornado and seek Gods hand in the storm. What brings me peace is to consider that in the murder of one innocent God has a plan to reunite, and make whole that which is torn. It is Gods way to use death to redeem and to save. I see your concerns, and they are valid, you just aren't looking at the picture BIG enough from a "Mainstream" Perspective and therefore what you logically conclude, Rightfully so with your limited perspective of Mainstream doctrine & understanding (Not a cut BTW) is simply wrong. Where you make the mistake is in calling it evil, and IMO many "Mainstreamers" are equally guilty in their antagonistic approach to LDS doctrine. IMHO it's time for us all to take a new step, away from the Dogma our denominations have created over the years, and move towards a new path.

I am not ignoring your response to me, it just seems that we keep going round and round. My goal was not to change your mind, but to at least attempt to show you how your logical exegesis misses the mark in the BIG picture from the Mainstream perspective (A claim no doubt that you as LDS can clearly relate to especially here in a forum designed to place LDS beliefs under critique.)

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

http://www.tangle.com/view_video?vie...eeklytopvideos


In this video I can see how God could use what we would determine as Evil to again reach out to all. The God I worship controls everything. He creates Tornadoes, He allows murder to occur, He uses death to bring life, In ALL things He is reaching out to us. I understand the LDS perspective as I once embraced it, BUT to me the idea that Satan controls the evil and God then bends that evil to meet His will doesn't bring me peace, or solace. What brings me personally peace is to look at the Tornado and seek Gods hand in the storm. What brings me peace is to consider that in the murder of one innocent God has a plan to reunite, and make whole that which is torn. It is Gods way to use death to redeem and to save. I see your concerns, and they are valid, you just aren't looking at the picture BIG enough from a "Mainstream" Perspective and therefore what you logically conclude, Rightfully so with your limited perspective of Mainstream doctrine & understanding (Not a cut BTW) is simply wrong. Where you make the mistake is in calling it evil, and IMO many "Mainstreamers" are equally guilty in their antagonistic approach to LDS doctrine. IMHO it's time for us all to take a new step, away from the Dogma our denominations have created over the years, and move towards a new path.

I'm just presenting some arguments. If they are wrong because I haven't looked at the picture Big enough then by all means start explaining. Otherwise such a response just seems deflective. There's plenty of room to step away from our perspective dogmas and move towards a new path, as you say, but its still possible to present arguments for better understanding. Ya got something then share it. If ya don't share it, then I'm left with the arguments I"ve presented and have yet to be refuted.

I don't get what exactly you're explaining by God creating Tornadoes and uses them for good, as if that somehow differs from LDS belief. my original point here is that mainstream belief seems to require that God created Lucifer for the purpose of being evil. I mean surely if He created ex nihilo He could have created him in a way that would not have led to him being the very evil one. This again has nothing to do with Tornadoes. It has to do with where evil originated.

I am not ignoring your response to me, it just seems that we keep going round and round. My goal was not to change your mind, but to at least attempt to show you how your logical exegesis misses the mark in the BIG picture from the Mainstream perspective (A claim no doubt that you as LDS can clearly relate to especially here in a forum designed to place LDS beliefs under critique.)

Kind regards,
Sentinus

If it misses the mark then please explain. I'm still waiting on that.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I'm just presenting some arguments. If they are wrong because I haven't looked at the picture Big enough then by all means start explaining. Otherwise such a response just seems deflective. There's plenty of room to step away from our perspective dogmas and move towards a new path, as you say, but its still possible to present arguments for better understanding. Ya got something then share it. If ya don't share it, then I'm left with the arguments I"ve presented and have yet to be refuted.

I don't get what exactly you're explaining by God creating Tornadoes and uses them for good, as if that somehow differs from LDS belief. my original point here is that mainstream belief seems to require that God created Lucifer for the purpose of being evil. I mean surely if He created ex nihilo He could have created him in a way that would not have led to him being the very evil one. This again has nothing to do with Tornadoes. It has to do with where evil originated.



If it misses the mark then please explain. I'm still waiting on that.

love,
stem

Lets revisit the OP to refresh the goal of this thread.

Originally Posted by Stem

Was Lucifer created by God, out of nothing, to do good or evil?

Doing the will of God is "good" even if doing so is determined to be "evil" by others. Consider Nephi's murder with the sword of Laban to obtain scripture. Murder and theft were considered "good".

Originally Posted by Stem

Was Lucifer immediately after creation good? If so when, specifically, did he become evil?

If God intended to create an Angel responsible for carrying out tasks that we deem "Evil" as finite beings, then yes God's "evil" creation was indeed "Good".
Your hang up is your insistence that "Good" and "Evil" are in conflict. Doing what we call "Evil" is "Good" if God commands it..

Combine my response above with this info in the link below.
http://whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation07.html

Originally Posted by Stem

The other part of this is, why are we all created, according to the mainstream Christian religion, at birth?

Christians don't believe this See Jeremiah 1:1-5

Originally Posted by Stem

That is both our spirits and our physical bodies, but Lucifer was created only as spirit?

Me thinks you have a few concepts mixed. LDS believe Satan is a Spirit only and brother of Us and Jesus. Mainstream Christians believe that Lucifer is a created Angel. IMO Angels have a body,Lucifer being an Angel would have one as well.

Originally Posted by Stem

Why did God decide to create those who would only be spirits and those who would have physical bodies and spirit bodies?

IF This dichotomy exists, only God can answer why. Why not ask..

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[Father_JD]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

I already said why...its because your beliefs are so anti-biblical in this regard.

love,
stem

You haven't demonstrated as such, stemster.

[Father_JD]

I get your rather illogical argument, JD. Its just that such side-steps my many points. Why you keep doing that, I don't know. I don't care, frankly. I'm just hoping you catch on to the ugliness of your religious beliefs someday.

LOL. You'd better be rea-a-a-aly careful, stem, calling God's BIBLICAL TRUTH as "ugly" and prefering MAN-MADE DOCTRINES OF JOSEPH SMITH!!

Your strawman is that God conceived of evil before Lucifer ever was, according to LDS belief. Such is not the case. You say, "The Mormo-god CONCEIVED of Lucifer's evil, etc." Such a conclusion presents us with a logical fallacy. You did not take the relevant steps to arrive at that conclusion. You are merely ***uming since God knew about it, that must mean He's the one who thought of it. Nope. Lucifer merely mimicked the evil that had already been through eternity.

No, no, no. You didn't get it, stem. YOU'RE the one who is arguing for a god who CONCEIVED, ORIGINATED LUCIFER'S FUTURE REBELLION AND EVIL IN HIS OWN MIND.

I'm merely pointing out the absurdity of your position is accusing the Biblical God of being the AUTHOR OF EVIL and that your own accusation is EQUALLY VALID IN BEING APPLIED TO THE MORMO-GOD WHO IS SUPPOSEDLY OMNISCIENT.

That's WHY "ex nihilo" vs. "pre-existing spirits" IS IRRELEVANT, stem. The Mormo-god FORESAW THE FUTURE EVIL AND REBELLION OF LUCIFER, so using your own "logic" the Mormo-god HAD TO HAVE CONCEIVED LUCIFER'S EVIL, etc.

This you have NOT refuted.

[stemelbow]

I guess you just want to continue to repeat without dealing with what I've said. Okay...

I get your rather illogical argument, JD. Its just that such side-steps my many points. Why you keep doing that, I don't know. I don't care, frankly. I'm just hoping you catch on to the ugliness of your religious beliefs someday.

Your strawman is that God conceived of evil before Lucifer ever was, according to LDS belief. Such is not the case. You say, "The Mormo-god CONCEIVED of Lucifer's evil, etc." Such a conclusion presents us with a logical fallacy. You did not take the relevant steps to arrive at that conclusion. You are merely ***uming since God knew about it, that must mean He's the one who thought of it. Nope. Lucifer merely mimicked the evil that had already been through eternity.

love,
stem

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

Lets revisit the OP to refresh the goal of this thread.

Doing the will of God is "good" even if doing so is determined to be "evil" by others. Consider Nephi's murder with the sword of Laban to obtain scripture. Murder and theft were considered "good".

The explanation was so a nation would not dwindle in unbelief. The explanation I see from your side is nilch in comparison.

If God intended to create an Angel responsible for carrying out tasks that we deem "Evil" as finite beings, then yes God's "evil" creation was indeed "Good".
Your hang up is your insistence that "Good" and "Evil" are in conflict. Doing what we call "Evil" is "Good" if God commands it..

I understand that would be the necessary explanation--kinda like the sword of Laban explanation. The problem is, of course, then if all that God does is good, then there is no evil, if you take your beliefs to their logical conclusion. If the explanations I've offered remain unrefuted, as they have as far as I can tell, then God knowing Lucifer's outcome and yet still creating him out of nothing means Lucifer's supposed evil is really good for mainstreamers, since all of Lucifer's deeds originated in God's conception. Sadly, what this does to your beliefs is, even someone's rape is good in God's eyes. Tragic...

Combine my response above with this info in the link below.
http://whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation07.html

Thanks for the link, I"m not sure how it helps.

Christians don't believe this See Jeremiah 1:1-5

I agree mainstreamism does not line up well with the Bible in many instances this is one. This was ultimately settled in the 6th century, or about then, as far as I recall. Some bishop finally considered all ideas of pre-existence--the spirit existing pre-mortality--heresy. Its stuck ever since for mainstreamism. Sure Origen reasoned pre-mortal existence and others jumped on board, but after he died everyone started to consider him a heretic and argued his points. The philosophical wrangling persisted through the life of Augustine with no definite conclusion. Some argued that spirits were all created before the earth's creation, this was nixed as heresy...some argued traducianism...others argued that the spirit was formed after the body by God putting His breath into the body. I'd like to understand this better because its been a little while since I've looked into it, but if you're interested I'd get "When Souls had Wings" by Terryl Givens. Here's a summarized version: http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferen...Had_Wings.html

Me thinks you have a few concepts mixed. LDS believe Satan is a Spirit only and brother of Us and Jesus. Mainstream Christians believe that Lucifer is a created Angel. IMO Angels have a body,Lucifer being an Angel would have one as well.

Perhaps in your opinion ANgels have bodies. But according to mainstreamism that is not hte case.

IF This dichotomy exists, only God can answer why. Why not ask..

Kind regards,
Sentinus

That's fine. some things are attributed to God's mysterious knowledge for most religionists. I accept that.

love,
stem

[Sentinus]

Originally Posted by stemelbow

The explanation was so a nation would not dwindle in unbelief. The explanation I see from your side is nilch in comparison.



I understand that would be the necessary explanation--kinda like the sword of Laban explanation. The problem is, of course, then if all that God does is good, then there is no evil, if you take your beliefs to their logical conclusion. If the explanations I've offered remain unrefuted, as they have as far as I can tell, then God knowing Lucifer's outcome and yet still creating him out of nothing means Lucifer's supposed evil is really good for mainstreamers, since all of Lucifer's deeds originated in God's conception. Sadly, what this does to your beliefs is, even someone's rape is good in God's eyes. Tragic...



Thanks for the link, I"m not sure how it helps.



I agree mainstreamism does not line up well with the Bible in many instances this is one. This was ultimately settled in the 6th century, or about then, as far as I recall. Some bishop finally considered all ideas of pre-existence--the spirit existing pre-mortality--heresy. Its stuck ever since for mainstreamism. Sure Origen reasoned pre-mortal existence and others jumped on board, but after he died everyone started to consider him a heretic and argued his points. The philosophical wrangling persisted through the life of Augustine with no definite conclusion. Some argued that spirits were all created before the earth's creation, this was nixed as heresy...some argued traducianism...others argued that the spirit was formed after the body by God putting His breath into the body. I'd like to understand this better because its been a little while since I've looked into it, but if you're interested I'd get "When Souls had Wings" by Terryl Givens. Here's a summarized version: http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferen...Had_Wings.html



Perhaps in your opinion ANgels have bodies. But according to mainstreamism that is not hte case.



That's fine. some things are attributed to God's mysterious knowledge for most religionists. I accept that.

love,
stem

Originally Posted by Stem

The explanation was so a nation would not dwindle in unbelief. The explanation I see from your side is nilch in comparison.

However you gotta spin it to justify murder and theft is fine by me. God commanded it and it was deemed good, my point is only strengthened by your response.

Originally Posted by Stem

if all that God does is good, then there is no evil,

Finally, I think you get it.

Originally Posted by Stem

if you take your beliefs to their logical conclusion.

Why are you so bent on making God logical to your finite and very limited view?

Originally Posted by Stem

If the explanations I've offered remain unrefuted, as they have as far as I can tell,

Sadly, you seem unable to simply except the answers you have been given.

Originally Posted by Stem

Lucifer's supposed evil is really good for mainstreamers, since all of Lucifer's deeds originated in God's conception.

From our limited and finite position of course it doesn't appear to be what we call "good", but that doesn't mean our perception is correct.

Originally Posted by Stem

what this does to your beliefs is, even someone's rape is good in God's eyes. Tragic...

Whats tragic is your inability to understand that Gods ways are not our own. The God of the Bible orders, war, plagues, famine, genocide, abduction, slaughtering of infants and children, and you bawk at a mere rape. Hmmmm

Originally Posted by Stem

Thanks for the link, I"m not sure how it helps.

Hopefully it adds to your understanding of the intended concepts found in the Bible instead of those that many LDS and Mainstreamers have developed to make sense of something they simply don't want to accept. Ultimately that God is responsible for everything- that which we call "Good" and that which we call "Evil". And just because we designate them as such doesn't make it so. What happens here is just what is, why not trust that God knows best and accept that your finite mind cannot fully comprehend an infinite en***y.

Originally Posted by Stem

I agree mainstreamism does not line up well with the Bible in many instances this is one.

I am "Mainstream" and I do not stand alone.. Sorry your limited exposure to Mainstream Christians skews your understanding of things greatly..

Originally Posted by Stem

This was ultimately settled in the 6th century, or about then, as far as I recall.

No it wasn't. What happened is that men with good intentions attempted best they could to address and understand things in their day. Mainstreamers are not required to accept the findings of ECF's as anything but opinion. We are encouraged to turn to the Scriptures and seek God for ourselves. Period end of story..

Originally Posted by Stem

Some bishop finally considered all ideas of pre-existence--the spirit existing pre-mortality--heresy.

Some Bishop with no real authority to do anything but speculate for himself. I think you remember things a little out of context, if you wouldn't mind I would like more context and actual quotes if you want to pursue this line of reasoning further.

Originally Posted by Stem

Its stuck ever since for mainstreamism.

Obviously not..

Originally Posted by Stem

Sure Origen reasoned pre-mortal existence and others jumped on board, but after he died everyone started to consider him a heretic and argued his points.

See my above request for more detailed info if you want to pursue this line of reasoning.

Originally Posted by Stem

The philosophical wrangling persisted through the life of Augustine with no definite conclusion. Some argued that spirits were all created before the earth's creation, this was nixed as heresy...some argued traducianism...others argued that the spirit was formed after the body by God putting His breath into the body. I'd like to understand this better because its been a little while since I've looked into it, but if you're interested I'd get "When Souls had Wings" by Terryl Givens. Here's a summarized version: http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferen...Had_Wings.html

Thanks for the link..

Originally Posted by Stem

Perhaps in your opinion ANgels have bodies. But according to mainstreamism that is not hte case.

Hmmm Fallen angels came to Earth and procreated with humans, yet they are spirits? So perhaps when they fall they gain physical bodies?



Adam is Micheal in LDS theology so He (Micheal) has a physical body?

Speaking of this how were Peter, James and John able to physically interact with Adam outside the garden when they weren't even born yet? It requires touching to receive and learn signs, tokens, and penalties (Adam received Penalties I am sure) Did Peter, James, and John have Pre existent bodies? Anyway..

And of course not all "Mainstreamers" agree with each other. The status of whether or not angels have bodies is a non essential, and ultimately something that the Bible does not clarify..

Originally Posted by Stem

That's fine. some things are attributed to God's mysterious knowledge for most religionists. I accept that.

This includes LDS religionists as well. Why else would LDS leaders continually instruct members to build those proverbial shelves?

Kind regards,
Sentinus

[stemelbow]

Originally Posted by Sentinus

However you gotta spin it to justify murder and theft is fine by me. God commanded it and it was deemed good, my point is only strengthened by your response.

Coming from a totally different paradigm we can still comprehend the effects of each other's belief system. For instance, to you God created all things out of nothing, for me it just ain't that way...so for me its not so easy to suggest God commanded and it was deemed good. There has to be a reason for it to be good.

Finally, I think you get it.

If there is no evil whatsoever, then why are any consigned to endless misery? You've added such a twist with this there really is no evil, that you've argued out of reality if you ask me.

Why are you so bent on making God logical to your finite and very limited view?

I'm not. I'm bent of showing how the logic of your belief system is bad, because I think good is good and needs to be understood.

Sadly, you seem unable to simply except the answers you have been given.

I simply do except the attempted answers given because, frankly, they are not dealing with my argument or, as you have done, taken evil out of existence completely which just seems unreal.

From our limited and finite position of course it doesn't appear to be what we call "good", but that doesn't mean our perception is correct.

So, when you say "our" you mean your's and mine, right? It seems you are agreeing that your belief system at least appear evil, but it doesn't matter because we just can't grasp a good enough perspective to say otherwise? I gotta say, such is nothing more than wishful thinking it seems to me.

Whats tragic is your inability to understand that Gods ways are not our own. The God of the Bible orders, war, plagues, famine, genocide, abduction, slaughtering of infants and children, and you bawk at a mere rape. Hmmmm

I understand that God's ways are not our own. But that in itself does not imply rape or murder is really good and not bad all by themselves. I do not just buy into the OT claim that God ordered everything. It seems just as likely that people claimed God ordered it all. Granted there are exceptions, but those exceptions do not equate to evil because God gave a rational reason for them.

Hopefully it adds to your understanding of the intended concepts found in the Bible instead of those that many LDS and Mainstreamers have developed to make sense of something they simply don't want to accept. Ultimately that God is responsible for everything- that which we call "Good" and that which we call "Evil". And just because we designate them as such doesn't make it so. What happens here is just what is, why not trust that God knows best and accept that your finite mind cannot fully comprehend an infinite en***y.

Well I don't accept creation ex nihilo so I don't have to accept the idea that we just can't know what is good and what is evil. And frankly, I can't imagine anyone reasonably doing so.

I am "Mainstream" and I do not stand alone.. Sorry your limited exposure to Mainstream Christians skews your understanding of things greatly..

I've been all ears, but that hardly means your ideas of there not really being evil are generally accepted among mainstream folk. In fact, I'd wager most mainstream folk would consider such an idea heresy.

No it wasn't. What happened is that men with good intentions attempted best they could to address and understand things in their day. Mainstreamers are not required to accept the findings of ECF's as anything but opinion. We are encouraged to turn to the Scriptures and seek God for ourselves. Period end of story..

Some Bishop with no real authority to do anything but speculate for himself. I think you remember things a little out of context, if you wouldn't mind I would like more context and actual quotes if you want to pursue this line of reasoning further.

Obviously not..

See my above request for more detailed info if you want to pursue this line of reasoning.

Thanks for the link..

I would recommend the book itself. The problem with your idea of bishops settling matters is not authoritative, then ought to extend to the Trinity explanation...among other things. I mean these are establish tenets of mainstreamism. To go outside the Trinity explanation is bad and results in not being mainstream.

Hmmm Fallen angels came to Earth and procreated with humans, yet they are spirits? So perhaps when they fall they gain physical bodies?

Adam is Micheal in LDS theology so He (Micheal) has a physical body?

Speaking of this how were Peter, James and John able to physically interact with Adam outside the garden when they weren't even born yet? It requires touching to receive and learn signs, tokens, and penalties (Adam received Penalties I am sure) Did Peter, James, and John have Pre existent bodies? Anyway..

And of course not all "Mainstreamers" agree with each other. The status of whether or not angels have bodies is a non essential, and ultimately something that the Bible does not clarify..

Okay, but from my perspective such an idea is on the outside looking in to mainstreamism. Find me a credible, modern day mainstream Christian who accepts pre-mortal existence of all beings.

This includes LDS religionists as well. Why else would LDS leaders continually instruct members to build those proverbial shelves?

Kind regards,
Sentinus

Of course...I intended that as an implication.

love,
stem

[Father_JD]

You demonstrate that you don't have a clue WHAT God meant by calling Himself, "The Alpha and the Omega...the First and the Last...the Beginning and the End", stemmy.