Trinity,

Religion do not pop up from nothing, into the time and space.
You are right. Jesus was the founder of Christianity. He told Peter that He would build His church and "the gates of hell would not prevail against it." My problem with the "inclusion" of all of these 'rising savior' myths is that it denies the supernatural intervention of God the father, Jesus Christ after He ascended, and the Holy Spirit in the origin and building of this "body of Christ" as it was called. To say, or imply strongly, as you are continuing to do, that the origins of the church are in paganism because of 'similarities' between the two puts the church in a 'contrived', 'man-made' category, and denies that it was God's plan from the beginning. That's a serious a serious charge and it makes one wonder (if one were to believe such a thing) if Jesus is coming back for His 'bride'--the church, as scripture promise. That is the 'eschatological' significance (which you speak of in the next reply) of this line of thought. Either it was founded on Jesus Christ and built by the leading of the Holy Spirit through the Apostles or it has no basis in God's plans for mankind. I would choose the former without blinking an eye.


We agree. We agree. However, the eschatology, symbols, and the images of Judaism was influenced by other religions and cultures (i.e. ***yria, Babylon, Persia, Greek and Roman). Keep also in mind, before there were writings, there were oral traditions. Those traditions have met together and often. Throughout the caravans in the desert and by the migration of the nomads.
I never mentioned the Mithraism, only the Zoroastrianism and in one occasion an example of similarities, from Egypt (Horus). Anyway, as mentioned above, the Mithraism derived from the Zoroastrianism. They exist because of the actions and beliefs from the past. All religions have siblings.

Catholicism---> Protestantiism---> Biblical fundamentalists---> Mormons---> ???
I would disagree with the last part. I said earlier that Protestanism wasn't born out of Catholicism. Protestantism had it's roots in 1st century Christianity. That's why I say that it actually preceded the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Are you showing a chronology of derivatives? You've really broadened your argument to the point where any religious group that has some semblance of Christianity in it is said to have been "spawned" by Christianity. You know there are some that claim to be Christian yet their doctrinal teachings are completely the opposite of Historic Christianity.

This is where you mentioned Mithraism:

That was not the opinion of Fathers of the Church as Tertullian, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr. Even for enemies of Christianity as Celsus.

"The devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstances of the Divine Sacraments...Thus he celebrates the oblation of bread, and brings in the symbol of the resurrection. Let us therefore acknowledge the craftiness of the devil, who copies certain things of those that be Divine."
Tertullian, late 2nd century CE, commenting on the many similarities between Mithraism and Christianity.
Here is a quote from Justyn Martyr, Apology I, 2nd Century--(from The Kingdom of the Occult-Walter Martin, Jill Rische Martin, Kurt Van Gorden, p. 107):

"For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called gospel, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn." (emphasis mine).

What a travesty! And this clearly shows that it was an imitation of a Christian practice that was established by Christ's example. It has no meaning otherwise. This was a men only religion that had a great appeal to the Roman army.


Here some informations about the life of Horus (Egypt).

Conception by a virgin.
Only begotten son of the God Osiris.
Mother = Meri or Miriam (a.k.a. Mary).
Father= Seb (Jo-Seph)
Of royal descent.
Birth location - in a cave.
Annunciation - by an angel.
Birth heralded by: The star Sirius, the morning star.
Birth date: Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice (typically DEC-21).
Birth announcement: By angels.
Birth witnesses: Shepherds.
Later witnesses to birth: Three solar deities.
Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered.
Baptism location: In the river Erid****.
Age at baptism: 30
Baptized by: Anup the Baptiser.
Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded.
Temptation:Taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain by his arch-rival Sut. Sut (a.k.a. Set) was a precursor for the Hebrew Satan.
Result of temptation: Horus resists temptation.
Activities:Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He "stilled the sea by his power."
Raising of the dead: Horus raised Osirus, his dead father, from the grave.
Transfigured: On a mountain.
Method of death: By crucifixion.
Fate after death: Descended into Hell; resurrected after three days.
Resurrection announced by: Women.
Future: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.
And many more.
I'll answer what I can tonight. I researched this once but I don't have it at hand right now.

Osiris is the Son of Geb and Nut (earth & sky). He was torn into pieces and scattered around by his brother Set. He married his sister, Isis, (goddess of ferility, magic, and motherhood) and she gathered up the pieces and gave them to Egyptian embalmers and then he is resurrected. Osiris is a good daimon (demon), a created being who became a god. He was not born of a virgin and was one of many gods. We're talking polytheism big-time in Egyptian mythology. He was not God incarnate. He did not sacrifice for the sins of the world. He also later became a god of the underworld. His resurrection then, was spiritual--not physical. Hence, no salvation by grace through him. These are the parents of Horus. A demon who was elevated to godhood and a Goddess.

I wouldn't make too much of the winter solstice angle. Scripture doesn't state clearly that Jesus was born in the winter. There are several scholars who have suggested a spring birth. I surely don't have enough evidence one way or the other. An interesting note though: If He was born in the spring that would surely throw off the astrological charts based on His birth., i.e.; the beginning of the "piscean age".

  • Are you equating the 3 "solar deities' with the wisemen?


Where is the evidence for a crucifixion? I'm not even sure that "crucifixion " was commonly practiced by the Egyptians. Could you cite a source on that?

I still don't see what this has to do with 'new age' except that the last time I encountered this "presumption" was on a 'new age ' forum on a different website.

Thanks for your patience waiting for replies back from me.

Dave