So is Evan Jesus the father of Lucifer? Y or N?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---I was wondering--what part of "Father" of spirits are we not understanding?

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

God the Father is the Father of all spirits--if He is not--then could you reveal to us what other God is the Father of those spirits? And that is a paternal connection.

And those spirits are the offspring of God:


Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)


29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Alan--offspring are always of the same species as their Father.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Jesus told the people against him that they were like their Father the Devil....

Thus ends the argument.

No! That was a reference to the flesh--not the spirit.Satan is not the Father of the first spirit, as the scriptures show.

The word "Father" connotates a relationship....as does the word Son.

As this is not present with the Devil and the Lord,

Yes it is--unless you can show what other God Fathered satan or any other spirit. God the Father is the Father of all spirits. There are no scriptures that state any other God Fathered spirits.

[alanmolstad]

So to review...

The term "Father" talks about relationship, and thus God is not the "Father" of satan and the fallen angels.

Just as God is not the father of men who do not believe.

Now this is not to say that God is not the "Creator" of Satan and the fallen angels, for God is the ONLY creator.

But Jesus teaches us that only they who believe have God as their "Father"
just as Jesus says that they who do not believe have Satan as their "Father"

This is also true of the word "Son"
The word son is a term that talks about a "relationship" and can be used in the Bible of people that are not actually related by blood .

So "father" and "Son" talk about a relationship, that satan does not have with God.

But "creator" and "creature" is how the Lord and Satan are related.

[alanmolstad]

any questions?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So to review...

The term "Father" talks about relationship, and thus God is not the "Father" of satan and the fallen angels.

Yes He is--and until you can show a God that did Father any spirits other than God the Father, the scripture stands as is:

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Where does it state only some spirits?

Just as God is not the father of men who do not believe.

All men had a spirit before they believed. And if a baby died in infancy--that spirit returned to God, who gave it. That was before they believed.

Alan--you are confusing the adoption with the origin of the spirit. We are adopted through faith in Christ--that has nothing to do with Fathering of the Spirit--anymore than it has anything to do with fathering of the flesh. The flesh is also present before the adoption--and that is fathered also by a particular father.

Now this is not to say that God is not the "Creator" of Satan and the fallen angels, for God is the ONLY creator.

And this is how that Biblical record states that creation occurs:

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

If God the Father is the only creator--then He Fathered all spirits.

That's a paternal connection--Father. All spirits are Fathered by God the Father--and we are His offspring:

Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Paul's audience included unbelievers.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Yes He is--and until you can show a God that did Father any spirits.

God is the creator of all things,

But God is only "Father" to believers.

This is the teaching of Jesus at JOHN 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil,..."



So as you can see, Satan is called the "Father" of some creatures.

[alanmolstad]

Now the reason when we say that some people have God as their "Father" and other people have Satan as their "Father" is that this term is not being used to talk about a blood connection in the Bible.

We know this is true because at many other places in the Bible we see a "Father/Son" terms used for two people that are not connected by blood.

[alanmolstad]

So to review again:

The term "FATHER" is used in the bible to help us understand the relationship between two people and does not mean that they must have a blood in common.

Many times in the bible the word "son" for example is used of men who were not related at all to the other person.
But they shared a special relationship and so the use of the term "Son and "Father" is correct.


This means that God is not the Father of Satan, even if God is the creator of Satan.

[alanmolstad]

as for the phrase "All spirits"?....that is easly understood when we compare scripture with scripture and read that Eve is said to be the mother of "All living"

Does all mean all there?....NO!

Adam was alive and Eve was not his mother.

And lets not forget that there were birds that were alive, and trees, and fish, etc...LOL

So when we read the phrase "Eve is the mother of all life" or "Mother of all living" we have to edit down the term "All" to mean a very limited amount of the living or life.

We do this even if on the page it simply reads "All life"

So the rule we have to keep in mind in the Bible is that "All" does not mean "everyone"

The context shows us this is the only way to understand the words...


So when the Bible says "father of all spirits" we can understand this to mean all believers.

God is not the Father of they who do not believe as I have shown above.
therefore God is not the father of Satan and the fallen angels

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

as for the phrase "All spirits"?....that is easly understood when we compare scripture with scripture and read that Eve is said to be the mother of "All living"

Does all mean all there?....NO!

Adam was alive and Eve was not his mother.

You will have to argue that one out with the Bible.

But God the Father is the Father of all spirits. If He is not--please identify who you believe is. The scriptures identify God the Father as the Father of all:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So to review again:

The term "FATHER" is used in the bible to help us understand the relationship between two people and does not mean that they must have a blood in common.

All men have blood in common. All spirits have a common Father. Please identify a scripture that states spirits have different Fathers.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

All men have blood in common. All spirits have a common Father. Please identify a scripture that states spirits have different Fathers.

again, I can only tell you what the bible says, and it says that some people have God as their father, and some people have Satan as their father.


This is what it says clearly in black and white so we cant misunderstand it.


Now if you believe that people are Spirits, then this is teaching that some Spirits have God as their father and some Spirits have Satan as their father....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God is the creator of all things,

But God is only "Father" to believers.

Again--the spirit was in man before he even reaches the age to which a belief is possible.

This is the teaching of Jesus at JOHN 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil,..."
So as you can see, Satan is called the "Father" of some creatures.

But not of their spirits. God the Father is identified as the Father of all spirits--and we His offspring.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--the spirit was in man before he even reaches the age to which a belief is possible.



.

Again, I can only tell you what the Bible teaches.
And in the words of Christ we do see taught that some people have God as their father, and some people have Satan as their father.


I also know that once you have God as your father, NOTHING can take you from his hand.....



The verses that teach this are :
John 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire..."

and

John 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand."



So what this is teaching is that Some people have God as their Father, and some people have satan as their father.
But once God is your Father satan can not take you away and make himself your new father.


There are NO LOST children in God's family.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post---God is the creator of all things,

But God is only "Father" to believers.

dberrie---Again--the spirit was in man before he even reaches the age to which a belief is possible.

Alanmolstad--This is the teaching of Jesus at JOHN 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil,..."
So as you can see, Satan is called the "Father" of some creatures.

dberrie---But not of their spirits. God the Father is identified as the
Father of all spirits--and we His offspring.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Again, I can only tell you what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches no other thing than God the Father being the Father of all spirits--including Christ's spirit.

And in the words of Christ we do see taught that some people have God as their father, and some people have Satan as their father.

But not the Father of their spirits. If God is the creator of all things, as you state--then you are going to have to find some other explanation to your scripture--it cannot mean Fathering spirits--nor creating them in any way. Your attempt here will fail you.

also know that once you have God as your father, NOTHING can take you from his hand.....

How are you relating this to God the Father being the Father of all spirits--and we His offspring? This is pertaining to the adoption--and happens after our belief, and after our spirit has inhabited our bodies. That all come after the spirit--not before it.

The evidence of that is all babies that die, their spirits return to the Father, and that before they have any belief.

Obviously--the spirit is there before belief. And the scriptures explain that God the Father is the Father of all spirits--belief or not.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Bible teaches no other thing than God the Father being the Father of all spirits--including Christ's spirit.

Yes it does, I just showed you the verse,,,,

[dberrie2000]

dberrie---But not of their spirits. God the Father is identified as the
Father of all spirits--and we His offspring.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post---Again, I can only tell you what the Bible teaches.

dberrie---The Bible teaches no other thing than God the Father being the Father of all spirits--including Christ's spirit.

6 One God and Father of all

Alanmolstad----And in the words of Christ we do see taught that some people have God as their father, and some people have Satan as their father.

dberrie---But not the Father of their spirits. If God is the creator of all things, as you state--then you are going to have to find some other explanation to your scripture--it cannot mean Fathering spirits--nor creating them in any way. Your attempt here will fail you.

Alanmolstad---also know that once you have God as your father, NOTHING can take you from his hand.....

dberrie---How are you relating this to God the Father being the Father of all spirits--and we His offspring? This is pertaining to the adoption--and happens after our belief, and after our spirit has inhabited our bodies. That all come after the spirit--not before it.

The evidence of that is all babies that die, their spirits return to the Father, and that before they have any belief.

Obviously--the spirit is there before belief. And the scriptures explain that God the Father is the Father of all spirits--belief or not.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Yes it does, I just showed you the verse,,,,

The verse you quoted was to men who had reached their full age--and was a pronouncement on those who chose evil over good.

The spirit was already long since in them. It came before those whom the pronouncement was made upon chose to do evil--and became satan's.

Your claim that belief is the dividing point of whether the spirit is of satan or God the Father is belied by the fact that all babies have a spirit that if they die--those spirits return to God--before belief.

Belief is pertinent to the adoption--but not to the Father of the Spirit. The scriptures are plain--God the Father is the father of all, as to the spirit.

Your argument is further complicated by the fact you claim that God is the Creator of all. Satan has created none--nor Fathered any spirit.

But the scriptures have spirits as the offspring of God:

Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Belief is pertinent to the adoption--but not to the Father of the Spirit. The scriptures are plain--God the Father is the father of all, as to the spirit.

God/Jesus created us all.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Belief is pertinent to the adoption--but not to the Father of the Spirit. The scriptures are plain--God the Father is the father of all, as to the spirit.

Originally Posted by Billyray

God/Jesus created us all.

The scriptures beg to differ, on account of the spirit:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The scriptures beg to differ, on account of the spirit:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

yes, all this section is dealing with the Christian church.
the church is the only one with the faith, the calling, the baptism, etc....so we are the only ones who can call god our "Father"


for the unbelievers can not call God their father as jesus has so clearly pointed out, they are of their father the devil.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---The scriptures beg to differ, on account of the spirit:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

yes, all this section is dealing with the Christian church.

God is the Father of all, and above all--regardless of any church.

the church is the only one with the faith, the calling, the baptism, etc....so we are the only ones who can call god our "Father"

for the unbelievers can not call God their father as jesus has so clearly pointed out, they are of their father the devil.

Again--that is only pertinent to those who have reached the age whereby they can exercise faith in Christ, or deny Him. The spirit of man is there before that time.

That is what you and Billyray are going to have to face--if you are going to make a viable argument.

The spirit is present before the adoption. God is the Father of all spirits--regardless of the adoption, just as our earthly parents are our parents regardless of the adoption.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

God is the Father of all, and above all--regardless of any church.




Again--that is only pertinent to those who have reached the age whereby they can exercise faith in Christ, or deny Him. The spirit of man is there before that time.

That is what you and Billyray are going to have to face--if you are going to make a viable argument.

The spirit is present before the adoption. God is the Father of all spirits--regardless of the adoption, just as our earthly parents are our parents regardless of the adoption.

He is the father of all creation then right.. Fish, birds, sheep, and loins.. God created all of them as well.. Are such also His children? That is what I hear from you.. God is the father of mules.. You will have to see the difference in saying God is the father of all creation and that He is the Father of all people He has adopted as His own children.. After all The Holy Spirit in John 1:12 makes it clear that we become His children and that through faith in Jesus.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

He is the father of all ......

God is the creator of all....but he is not the father of all....

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God is the creator of all....but he is not the father of all....

Right! So all of creation is His offspring.. Only those who have faith in Jesus are His children.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

all things are his creation

But only they who worship him in truth are his children and He their Father.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by James Banta

He is the father of all creation then right.. Fish, birds, sheep, and loins.. God created all of them as well..

That is usually ***igned to Jesus Christ. God the Father is designated as the Father of spirits, concerning "us":

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Are such also His children?

There is nothing within the Biblical record that states anything but our spirits are Fathered by God the Father--and we His offspring.

Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

That is what I hear from you.. God is the father of mules.. You will have to see the difference in saying God is the father of all creation and that He is the Father of all people He has adopted as His own children..

I have never made the claim that God fathered mules--but the scriptures do state that God the Father did indeed Father spirits:


Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

I see nothing in there that would include anything but the spirits of His offspring.

After all The Holy Spirit in John 1:12 makes it clear that we become His children and that through faith in Jesus.. IHS jim

But you are referring to the adoption here--which takes place years after our birth--and after we already have a spirit in our bodies.

That is likened to stating that the adoption means that the fathers of our flesh is made void by we becoming children of God through the adoption. James--our earthly fathers fathered our flesh regardless of any adoption or not--that is a separate event--our flesh was fathered before any adoption took place---just as our spirits were Fathered before our adoption--and were present years before our adoption. Spirits are present for those who never will receive the adoption. Spirits are present in babies that die before the adoption.

That is the fact that all need to address--diverting to the adoption cannot explain that, and remains your onus to deal with.