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Thread: So is Evan Jesus the father of Lucifer? Y or N?

  1. #1
    nrajeff
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    Default So is Evan Jesus the father of Lucifer? Y or N?

    I never saw an answer from you guys on that question. Here are some T/F statements to help you get to where your Christology ends up:

    1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F

    2. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of Lucifer. T/F

    3. The Bible mentions "the father of spirits." (Heb. 12:9) This refers to Jesus, since to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of all spirits. T/F

    4. Lucifer is a very evil spirit. T/F

    5. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus (the father of spirits) is the father of Lucifer (a very evil spirit). T/F

  2. #2
    Father_JD
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    I never saw an answer from you guys on that question.
    Nonsense, jeff. You must not have looked very hard.


    Here are some T/F statements to help you get to where your Christology ends up:

    1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F
    True, jeff. That IS what Col. 1 teaches.


    2. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of Lucifer. T/F
    True. And not His "spirit brother".


    3. The Bible mentions "the father of spirits." (Heb. 12:9) This refers to Jesus, since to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of all spirits. T/F
    False. The context from Heb. 12 clearly shows God the Father being referred to as "the father of spirits". Why? Because God is TRIUNE.

    4. Lucifer is a very evil spirit. T/F
    False. Lucifer was created as a very GOOD spirit. He rebelled and became "Satan", a very evil spirit. Remember your own doctrine of "Free Agency", jeff? Do you think only LDS believe in some form of this?


    5. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus (the father of spirits) is the father of Lucifer (a very evil spirit). T/F

    False. God the Father is referred to as the "father of spirits". You must consider that "father" of "spirits" does NOT signify some fleshy deity having cosmic sex with one of his hottie goddess wives, procreating spirit "babies", whether angelic or human.

  3. #3
    nrajeff
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    Thanks for taking the bai...er, I mean, answering the questions, FJD. But a couple of your answers seem troubling.

    False. The context from Heb. 12 clearly shows God the Father being referred to as "the father of spirits". Why? Because God is TRIUNE.
    ---But you already stated that Jesus is the creator of all spirits. How can the Person of Son be the person who created all spirits, yet the Person of the FATHER be the person who is the father of spirits?

    False. Lucifer was created as a very GOOD spirit.
    ---I never asked about what Lucifer USED to be. I asked about what he IS. Didn't you watch the Clinton impeachment hearings? Now answer the question that I asked, not the one you wanted me to ask because it lets you weasel.

    He rebelled and became "Satan", a very evil spirit. Remember your own doctrine of "Free Agency", jeff? Do you think only LDS believe in some form of this?
    ---No, I don't think we are the only ones who believe in a form of it; we are just the only ones with the CORRECT form of it.

    False. God the Father is referred to as the "father of spirits". You must consider that "father" of "spirits" does NOT signify some fleshy deity having cosmic sex with one of his hottie goddess wives, procreating spirit "babies", whether angelic or human.
    ---I can consider that. Did YOU consider it during those decades you were LDS? But I don't think you have explained how the Person of the Son can be the creator of all spirits, yet the Person of the Father is the father of spirits. How does that make any sense? Except to a Modalist, I mean. Are you a Modalist? Is that how it makes sense to you?

  4. #4
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    But I don't think you have explained how the Person of the Son can be the creator of all spirits, yet the Person of the Father is the father of spirits. How does that make any sense? Except to a Modalist, I mean. Are you a Modalist? Is that how it makes sense to you?
    Because Christians and LDS use the term "Father" differently. LDS believe that each and every spirit is the product of the sexual union between God the Father and one of his wives. Thus each person is the LITERAL spiritual son of God according to LDS. Christians do NOT believe that we are the literal sons of God but become sons of God by adoption at the time that we are born again. That means that there are some who are not sons of God, this runs contrary to the LDS point of view which teach that ALL of us are sons of God.

  5. #5
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    False. The context from Heb. 12 clearly shows God the Father being referred to as "the father of spirits". Why? Because God is TRIUNE.
    That makes God the Father the father of Satan. Isn't God the Father also the father of Jesus?

  6. #6
    Father_JD
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    Thanks for taking the bai...er, I mean, answering the questions, FJD. But a couple of your answers seem troubling.
    Only troubling to one who can't think outside of the Mormon "box", i.e. "Father" must mean one who procreated children, not understanding Biblical usage is DIFFERENT.


    Quote:
    False. The context from Heb. 12 clearly shows God the Father being referred to as "the father of spirits". Why? Because God is TRIUNE.

    ---But you already stated that Jesus is the creator of all spirits. How can the Person of Son be the person who created all spirits, yet the Person of the FATHER be the person who is the father of spirits?
    And I've already told you: God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is ONE GOD. What does the Bible say, jeff? In some mysterious way, ALL THREE persons were involved in creation. I'm merely pointing out to you that the context of Heb. 12 is clearly referring to God the Father.


    Quote:
    False. Lucifer was created as a very GOOD spirit.

    ---I never asked about what Lucifer USED to be. I asked about what he IS. Didn't you watch the Clinton impeachment hearings? Now answer the question that I asked, not the one you wanted me to ask because it lets you weasel.

    You wrote, "Lucifer" and I answered accordingly, jeff. Lucifer REBELLED, and became SATAN who IS evil. So why is this such a stumbling block for you seeing you supposedly believe in "Free Agency"???


    Quote:
    He rebelled and became "Satan", a very evil spirit. Remember your own doctrine of "Free Agency", jeff? Do you think only LDS believe in some form of this?

    ---No, I don't think we are the only ones who believe in a form of it; we are just the only ones with the CORRECT form of it.
    LOL. Your "correct" form is UNBiblical, jeff.


    Quote:
    False. God the Father is referred to as the "father of spirits". You must consider that "father" of "spirits" does NOT signify some fleshy deity having cosmic sex with one of his hottie goddess wives, procreating spirit "babies", whether angelic or human.

    ---I can consider that. Did YOU consider it during those decades you were LDS? But I don't think you have explained how the Person of the Son can be the creator of all spirits, yet the Person of the Father is the father of spirits. How does that make any sense? Except to a Modalist, I mean. Are you a Modalist? Is that how it makes sense to you?

    Because God is TRIUNE, jeff. And I'm really glad you brought this up because it highlights their ONENESS IN BEING which transcends the Mormon "One in purpose only" doctrine.


    Scripture declares ALL three persons co-created everything:

    Gen 1:1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Understood generally to be referring to God the Father and yet...)


    Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Understood to mean the Holy Spirit.

    Col 1:16 For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


    Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

    Col 1:19 ¶ For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;


    So here we have scripture that declare:

    God the Father CREATED.
    God the Holy Spirit CREATED.
    God the Son CREATED.

    Your difficulty in understanding that "Father" could be applied to the Son as well is because you can't look at it from a TRIUNE perspective, Mormonism having separated Father, Son, and Holy Spirit into THREE SEPARATE GODS.

    Here the Son is called, "Father", jeff...so what about that also? Is it possible the Biblical usage of "father" transcends the mundane, literal understanding of Mormons??


    Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

  7. #7
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    That makes God the Father the father of Satan. Isn't God the Father also the father of Jesus?
    How are you defining "Father"?

  8. #8
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    That makes God the Father the father of Satan. Isn't God the Father also the father of Jesus?
    Your difficulty in understanding biblical usage is because of your indoctrination that "Father" MUST mean one who "procreates" children. Hence Mormon CONFUSION, Fig.

    Jesus is GOD INCARNATE and is ETERNAL DEITY. When the Bible speaks of Jesus as the "Son", it connotes distinction from the Father, and yet the "Son" is fully divine; scripture declares Jesus as "monogenais", which means "uniquely begotten".

    Lucifer is a CREATED BEING, a FALLEN angel. Biblical usage is different here, meaning "Father of Spirits" in a creator sense.

    The FACT that Jesus is UNCREATE, and angels, humans are CREATE necessitates a different usage for "Father" depending on CONTEXT.

  9. #9
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post
    How are you defining "Father"?
    Mormons understand "Father" in only one literal way, Billyray:

    A male person who procreates children with women. Hence their extreme difficulty in understanding Biblical usage of the term.

  10. #10
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Your difficulty in understanding biblical usage is because of your indoctrination that "Father" MUST mean one who "procreates" children. Hence Mormon CONFUSION, Fig.

    Jesus is GOD INCARNATE and is ETERNAL DEITY. When the Bible speaks of Jesus as the "Son", it connotes distinction from the Father, and yet the "Son" is fully divine; scripture declares Jesus as "monogenais", which means "uniquely begotten".

    Lucifer is a CREATED BEING, a FALLEN angel. Biblical usage is different here, meaning "Father of Spirits" in a creator sense.

    The FACT that Jesus is UNCREATE, and angels, humans are CREATE necessitates a different usage for "Father" depending on CONTEXT.
    Nevertheless, you do believe that God the Father is both father (in a creator sense) to satan and created his spirit, yes?

  11. #11
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Nevertheless, you do believe that God the Father is both father (in a creator sense) to satan and created his spirit, yes?
    No, I believe that God the Father created Lucifer, via Jesus the Son (cf Col. 1) and created him as a beautiful angelic being who later rebelled, THEN becoming "Satan".

    Got it?

  12. #12
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Mormons understand "Father" in only one literal way, Billyray:

    A male person who procreates children with women. Hence their extreme difficulty in understanding Biblical usage of the term.
    Right, maybe Fig could provide evidence for this definition and his comment about Jesus as noted below.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Isn't God the Father also the father of Jesus?
    And what about the following reference

    John 8:44 "Ye are of your father the devil. . ."

  13. #13
    Father_JD
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    Mormons, who normally take everything literal are suprisingly "figurative" when it comes to Jesus telling the Pharasees that they were of their FATHER, THE DEVIL!!!

    What they can't understand is the term "Father" in regards to God is ALWAYS FIGURATIVE...but NO, JS told them their fleshy deity had sex with his goddess wives and therefore procreated Jesus, Lucifer and us as iddy-biddy spirit chillin'.

  14. #14
    nrajeff
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    But the fact that LDS take "Ye are of your father the devil" to be a metaphor, proves that we don't take every reference to the word father literally.

  15. #15
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    But the fact that LDS take "Ye are of your father the devil" to be a metaphor, proves that we don't take every reference to the word father literally.

    Whatever you take literally OR metaphorically is not conditioned by the Biblical context (as it is with Christians), jeff, it's completely and solely conditioned by what JS and the Mormon Church TOLD YOU TO BELIEVE.

  16. #16
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    Whatever you take literally OR metaphorically is not conditioned by the Biblical context (as it is with Christians), jeff, it's completely and solely conditioned by what JS and the Mormon Church TOLD YOU TO BELIEVE

    ------But YOU told Fig "Your difficulty in understanding biblical usage is because of your indoctrination that "Father" MUST mean one who "procreates" children."

    As we just proved, you made a false statement. Is your telling falsehoods about us completely and solely conditioned by what the Episcopal Church TOLD YOU TO BELIEVE?

  17. #17
    Sentinus
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
    I never saw an answer from you guys on that question. Here are some T/F statements to help you get to where your Christology ends up:

    1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F

    2. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of Lucifer. T/F

    3. The Bible mentions "the father of spirits." (Heb. 12:9) This refers to Jesus, since to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of all spirits. T/F

    4. Lucifer is a very evil spirit. T/F

    5. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus (the father of spirits) is the father of Lucifer (a very evil spirit). T/F
    My answer to the above in all cases is "Not exactly". Each of the above question is far to simplistic for a true or false response, and could literally take multiple threads on each topic to cover them all.

    To ask a question to steer this question into a more LDS focused discussion.

    In your opinion is "God the father" the father of Lucifer as far as LDS doctrine is concerned?

    If so- how exactly is He the father as pertaining to LDS doctrine?

    If not- why did God create something evil as pertaining to LDS doctrine?


    I will leave you with this-

    NRA,

    Is it possible that there are some things about God that the LDS church simply doesn't know or answer?

    If so is it not just as possible that, that which we as man define as right and wrong is neither in the sight of God, and therefore makes logical exegesis like your OP and my response questions irrelevant in coming to know God as He/She really is?

    Kind regards,
    Sentinus

  18. #18
    Fig-bearing Thistle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_JD View Post
    No, I believe that God the Father created Lucifer, via Jesus the Son (cf Col. 1) and created him as a beautiful angelic being who later rebelled, THEN becoming "Satan".

    Got it?
    Still that makes God (via the Son) the creator-father of the first rebel, right?

    Is it un-biblical to be a father to something because you created it?

  19. #19
    Billyray
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Still that makes God (via the Son) the creator-father of the first rebel, right?

    Is it un-biblical to be a father to something because you created it?
    Maybe I am missing something but what is your point of trying to subs***ute father for creator?

  20. #20
    nrajeff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentinus View Post
    My answer to the above in all cases is "Not exactly". Each of the above question is far to simplistic for a true or false response, and could literally take multiple threads on each topic to cover them all.
    ---Well, it was not my expectation or intention that responses would require that much time and verbiage. So I am not sure what to say at this point.

    To ask a question to steer this question into a more LDS focused discussion.

    In your opinion is "God the father" the father of Lucifer as far as LDS doctrine is concerned?
    ---Of course.

    If so- how exactly is He the father as pertaining to LDS doctrine?
    ---LDS believe the Bible where it refers to the Person of the Father as the father of spirits. There is not much doctrine in the way of "how that works" details.

    I will leave you with this-
    NRA,
    Is it possible that there are some things about God that the LDS church simply doesn't know or answer?
    --Of course, and what I just said in answer to the previous question is evidence of that.

    If so is it not just as possible that, that which we as man define as right and wrong is neither in the sight of God, and therefore makes logical exegesis like your OP and my response questions irrelevant in coming to know God as He/She really is?
    --It is possible. It just seems logical to me that God wants OUR ideas about what is right and wrong, to be similar to His own. Otherwise, our whole existence becomes something of a joke. I mean, if our belief that it's wrong to rape and pillage is actually not something that God also thinks is wrong, then the whole 10 Commandments thing is a farce. As well as the Bea***udes. One of the reasons I believe it's wrong to hurt others is because I think Jesus feels the same way. If I am mistaken there, and Jesus actually approves of and WANTS us to hurt our fellowman, then life is meaningless and we might as well rape, pillage, and be merry for tomorrow we might die and find out that Jesus will high-five us for doing it.

  21. #21
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post

    ------But YOU told Fig "Your difficulty in understanding biblical usage is because of your indoctrination that "Father" MUST mean one who "procreates" children."

    As we just proved, you made a false statement. Is your telling falsehoods about us completely and solely conditioned by what the Episcopal Church TOLD YOU TO BELIEVE?

    Yes, ONLY MORMONS understand "Father" as one who MUST procreate children, jeff. Why? 'Cause that's what the LDS Church tells you HOW to understand those verses.

    You have no argument, jeff. Sorry.

  22. #22
    Father_JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle View Post
    Still that makes God (via the Son) the creator-father of the first rebel, right?

    Absolutely. NOTHING or NO ONE has EVER existed PRIOR to God. Why do you think He calls Himself, "THE FIRST AND THE LAST, THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE ALPHA AND OMEGA"????????

    Completely lost on Mormons.

    Is it un-biblical to be a father to something because you created it?

    Not at all. That's the PRIMARY MEANING of "Father" when applied to God.

  23. #23
    alanmolstad
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    The term "father" really only applies to a father/son relationship.

    No such relationship exists between Jesus and Satan...

    So while God is the creator of all things, and as Satan is a thing, so he is created by God....

    But God cant be really said to the the "father" of Satan as they dont have they type of relationship.

  24. #24
    Sir
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The term "father" really only applies to a father/son relationship.

    No such relationship exists between Jesus and Satan...

    So while God is the creator of all things, and as Satan is a thing, so he is created by God....

    But God cant be really said to the the "father" of Satan as they dont have they type of relationship.
    Wooohoooo!!!!!

    I always said Alan has ignored everyone on the board so now he posts to threads 3 years old and to posters no longer around.

    Looks like he is going for EXACTLY 3 years now!!!! Way to go! Maybe alan is simply looking for posts exactly 3 years old and then responding to them. LOLOLOL

  25. #25
    alanmolstad
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    I believe in the Garden where we have some quotes of Satan speaking , we find that Satan never called the Lord "Father".

    I get the feeling that Satan does not think of God as his father...

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