So is Evan Jesus the father of Lucifer? Y or N?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

[COLOR="Purple"]I never saw an answer from you guys on that question. Here are some T/F statements to help you get to where your Christology ends up:

1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F

That may be an evangelical position--but not a Biblical one:


Hebrews 12:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

[alanmolstad]

So as I was saying.....

We can believe that God is the creator of all people and things, this is true.

and God created the mighty angel that fell from heaven and became Satan.

But we cant really say the the Lord is satan's "father" as the term "father" is a special term of relationship...and that relationship does not exist with them two.

Our Lord is Satan's "God"
Our Lord is Satan's "Creator"

But unless we have a very clear verse where God calls Satan "My son".....or a very clear verse where Satan calls the Lord, "My father"...we just better not jump ahead and claim that is the way the two address each other.



We do see Satan call the Lord "God"......and I think thats about all we will find in the Bible on this subject that can be pointed to as supportable.




Now as for the idea that God is the "faher" of all spirits?....Thats where we have to always keep in mind that this idea of "all' is very, very selective in the Bible....
An example would be in reading how Eve is said to be the mother of all living.......
This is clearly an error as Adam was alive at the time, and Eve was not his mother....
And what of birds, cows, and fish?...they too were part of the "living" at the time and so is Eve truly the mother of all life or all living?.......

The answer is that the Bible is very selective in how it may use the term "all" a times.

In this way i can say that my Lord is the father of all men, but at the same time understand that by my use of the term "all" I mean all the saved Christians, and not of the Lost who are of their "father" the Devil.

In a debate with Jesus the Jewish leaders were saying that god was "their father" and it was Jesus who pointed out that this simply was not true at all.

So this means that according to Jesus, the Lord God is NOT the father of all men, even if He is the creator of all men.....
So it is in the same way clear that God is NOT the father of all the spiritual beings that he alone created....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
[color="Purple"]I never saw an answer from you guys on that question. Here are some T/F statements to help you get to where your Christology ends up:

1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F

dberrie----That may be an evangelical position--but not a Biblical one:


Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So as I was saying.....

We can believe that God is the creator of all people and things, this is true.

and God created the mighty angel that fell from heaven and became Satan.

But we cant really say the the Lord is satan's "father" as the term "father" is a special term of relationship...and that relationship does not exist with them two.

I was wondering--what part of "Father" of spirits are we not understanding?

God the Father is the Father of all spirits--if He is not--then could you reveal to us what other God is the Father of those spirits? And that is a paternal connection.

And those spirits are the offspring of God:


Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)


29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Alan--offspring are always of the same species as their Father.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by nrajeff View Post
[color="Purple"]I never saw an answer from you guys on that question. Here are some T/F statements to help you get to where your Christology ends up:

1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F

dberrie----That may be an evangelical position--but not a Biblical one:


Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad ---So as I was saying.....

We can believe that God is the creator of all people and things, this is true.

and God created the mighty angel that fell from heaven and became Satan.

But we cant really say the the Lord is satan's "father" as the term "father" is a special term of relationship...and that relationship does not exist with them two.

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I was wondering--what part of "Father" of spirits are we not understanding?

God the Father is the Father of all spirits--if He is not--then could you reveal to us what other God is the Father of those spirits? And that is a paternal connection.

And those spirits are the offspring of God:


Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)


29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Alan--offspring are always of the same species as their Father.

Bump for Alan

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Alan--offspring are always of the same species as their Father.

Jesus told the people against him that they were like their Father the Devil....

Thus ends the argument.

The word "Father" connotates a relationship....as does the word Son.

As this is not present with the Devil and the Lord, we can thereby say and be 100% connect that the Lord is NOT the father of Satan, nor his demons.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---I was wondering--what part of "Father" of spirits are we not understanding?

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

God the Father is the Father of all spirits--if He is not--then could you reveal to us what other God is the Father of those spirits? And that is a paternal connection.

And those spirits are the offspring of God:


Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)


29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Alan--offspring are always of the same species as their Father.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Jesus told the people against him that they were like their Father the Devil....

Thus ends the argument.

No! That was a reference to the flesh--not the spirit.Satan is not the Father of the first spirit, as the scriptures show.

The word "Father" connotates a relationship....as does the word Son.

As this is not present with the Devil and the Lord,

Yes it is--unless you can show what other God Fathered satan or any other spirit. God the Father is the Father of all spirits. There are no scriptures that state any other God Fathered spirits.

[alanmolstad]

So to review...

The term "Father" talks about relationship, and thus God is not the "Father" of satan and the fallen angels.

Just as God is not the father of men who do not believe.

Now this is not to say that God is not the "Creator" of Satan and the fallen angels, for God is the ONLY creator.

But Jesus teaches us that only they who believe have God as their "Father"
just as Jesus says that they who do not believe have Satan as their "Father"

This is also true of the word "Son"
The word son is a term that talks about a "relationship" and can be used in the Bible of people that are not actually related by blood .

So "father" and "Son" talk about a relationship, that satan does not have with God.

But "creator" and "creature" is how the Lord and Satan are related.

[alanmolstad]

any questions?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So to review...

The term "Father" talks about relationship, and thus God is not the "Father" of satan and the fallen angels.

Yes He is--and until you can show a God that did Father any spirits other than God the Father, the scripture stands as is:

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Where does it state only some spirits?

Just as God is not the father of men who do not believe.

All men had a spirit before they believed. And if a baby died in infancy--that spirit returned to God, who gave it. That was before they believed.

Alan--you are confusing the adoption with the origin of the spirit. We are adopted through faith in Christ--that has nothing to do with Fathering of the Spirit--anymore than it has anything to do with fathering of the flesh. The flesh is also present before the adoption--and that is fathered also by a particular father.

Now this is not to say that God is not the "Creator" of Satan and the fallen angels, for God is the ONLY creator.

And this is how that Biblical record states that creation occurs:

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

If God the Father is the only creator--then He Fathered all spirits.

That's a paternal connection--Father. All spirits are Fathered by God the Father--and we are His offspring:

Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Paul's audience included unbelievers.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Yes He is--and until you can show a God that did Father any spirits.

God is the creator of all things,

But God is only "Father" to believers.

This is the teaching of Jesus at JOHN 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil,..."



So as you can see, Satan is called the "Father" of some creatures.

[alanmolstad]

Now the reason when we say that some people have God as their "Father" and other people have Satan as their "Father" is that this term is not being used to talk about a blood connection in the Bible.

We know this is true because at many other places in the Bible we see a "Father/Son" terms used for two people that are not connected by blood.

[alanmolstad]

So to review again:

The term "FATHER" is used in the bible to help us understand the relationship between two people and does not mean that they must have a blood in common.

Many times in the bible the word "son" for example is used of men who were not related at all to the other person.
But they shared a special relationship and so the use of the term "Son and "Father" is correct.


This means that God is not the Father of Satan, even if God is the creator of Satan.

[alanmolstad]

as for the phrase "All spirits"?....that is easly understood when we compare scripture with scripture and read that Eve is said to be the mother of "All living"

Does all mean all there?....NO!

Adam was alive and Eve was not his mother.

And lets not forget that there were birds that were alive, and trees, and fish, etc...LOL

So when we read the phrase "Eve is the mother of all life" or "Mother of all living" we have to edit down the term "All" to mean a very limited amount of the living or life.

We do this even if on the page it simply reads "All life"

So the rule we have to keep in mind in the Bible is that "All" does not mean "everyone"

The context shows us this is the only way to understand the words...


So when the Bible says "father of all spirits" we can understand this to mean all believers.

God is not the Father of they who do not believe as I have shown above.
therefore God is not the father of Satan and the fallen angels

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

as for the phrase "All spirits"?....that is easly understood when we compare scripture with scripture and read that Eve is said to be the mother of "All living"

Does all mean all there?....NO!

Adam was alive and Eve was not his mother.

You will have to argue that one out with the Bible.

But God the Father is the Father of all spirits. If He is not--please identify who you believe is. The scriptures identify God the Father as the Father of all:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God is the creator of all things,

But God is only "Father" to believers.

Again--the spirit was in man before he even reaches the age to which a belief is possible.

This is the teaching of Jesus at JOHN 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil,..."
So as you can see, Satan is called the "Father" of some creatures.

But not of their spirits. God the Father is identified as the Father of all spirits--and we His offspring.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So to review again:

The term "FATHER" is used in the bible to help us understand the relationship between two people and does not mean that they must have a blood in common.

All men have blood in common. All spirits have a common Father. Please identify a scripture that states spirits have different Fathers.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--the spirit was in man before he even reaches the age to which a belief is possible.



.

Again, I can only tell you what the Bible teaches.
And in the words of Christ we do see taught that some people have God as their father, and some people have Satan as their father.


I also know that once you have God as your father, NOTHING can take you from his hand.....



The verses that teach this are :
John 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire..."

and

John 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[a]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand."



So what this is teaching is that Some people have God as their Father, and some people have satan as their father.
But once God is your Father satan can not take you away and make himself your new father.


There are NO LOST children in God's family.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

All men have blood in common. All spirits have a common Father. Please identify a scripture that states spirits have different Fathers.

again, I can only tell you what the bible says, and it says that some people have God as their father, and some people have Satan as their father.


This is what it says clearly in black and white so we cant misunderstand it.


Now if you believe that people are Spirits, then this is teaching that some Spirits have God as their father and some Spirits have Satan as their father....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--the spirit was in man before he even reaches the age to which a belief is possible.



But not of their spirits. God the Father is identified as the Father of all spirits--and we His offspring.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;


in the final words of the verse you see the identy of the "all" listed....."you"

So from the start of this section of the Bible we are dealing with a listing of why God is Our father and not the father of the unbelievers.
We have the faith, we have the baptism, we have the hope, ,,,,we in the christian church are the ONLY ONES that have such things in this list.

And they are the reasons I can Call god my "Father" and the unbelievers can not.
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

The above context is clearly dealing only with the Christian church.

The church is the "All" that is being talked about .

The whole context of this section is aimed at the teachings of the Christian church.
consider the one baptism, the faith, the one hope, the "calling"

Clearly this whole section of Scripture is dealing with the faith and that fact that god is "our father"


but as we know the unbeliever does not have God as their father, then we have to ask _ "who is the Father of the lost and the fallen angels?"......answer: SATAN!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post---God is the creator of all things,

But God is only "Father" to believers.

dberrie---Again--the spirit was in man before he even reaches the age to which a belief is possible.

Alanmolstad--This is the teaching of Jesus at JOHN 8:44 "You belong to your father, the devil,..."
So as you can see, Satan is called the "Father" of some creatures.

dberrie---But not of their spirits. God the Father is identified as the
Father of all spirits--and we His offspring.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Again, I can only tell you what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches no other thing than God the Father being the Father of all spirits--including Christ's spirit.

And in the words of Christ we do see taught that some people have God as their father, and some people have Satan as their father.

But not the Father of their spirits. If God is the creator of all things, as you state--then you are going to have to find some other explanation to your scripture--it cannot mean Fathering spirits--nor creating them in any way. Your attempt here will fail you.

also know that once you have God as your father, NOTHING can take you from his hand.....

How are you relating this to God the Father being the Father of all spirits--and we His offspring? This is pertaining to the adoption--and happens after our belief, and after our spirit has inhabited our bodies. That all come after the spirit--not before it.

The evidence of that is all babies that die, their spirits return to the Father, and that before they have any belief.

Obviously--the spirit is there before belief. And the scriptures explain that God the Father is the Father of all spirits--belief or not.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Bible teaches no other thing than God the Father being the Father of all spirits--including Christ's spirit.

Yes it does, I just showed you the verse,,,,

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

. If God is the creator of all things, as you state--

Yes, God is the creater of all things.

God is the creator of satan just like god is the creator of the sun and the moon and all the stars.

But God is only the father of they who worship him in truth and have a father/son relationship with him.


This is why Jesus said that unbelievers have satan as their father.

[alanmolstad]

So to review>

The term "Father" in the Bible is not talking about sex, or a blood relationship.

The term "Father" simply means that you have a special loveing relationship that is across blood lines at times.

This is why in the bible we see people called someone"Father" or someone's "son" that are not related by blood family.

The term simply is talking about the emotional bonds between people that is shared.

This is why God can be the creator of Satan, and yet not his Father.


This is why God can be the creator of an unbeliever and not his father too...

[alanmolstad]

In many ways, the term "father' is like how the term "First born" is undersood.


many people just look at the term "Firstborn" and come away thinking that its simply always talking about the "First person Born"

But thats wrong.

The way the Bible makes use of the term we find that it has really nothing to do with the birthing order at all!

This is why the Bible will call someone by the term "Firstborn" that was actually Born later in order.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie---But not of their spirits. God the Father is identified as the
Father of all spirits--and we His offspring.

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post---Again, I can only tell you what the Bible teaches.

dberrie---The Bible teaches no other thing than God the Father being the Father of all spirits--including Christ's spirit.

6 One God and Father of all

Alanmolstad----And in the words of Christ we do see taught that some people have God as their father, and some people have Satan as their father.

dberrie---But not the Father of their spirits. If God is the creator of all things, as you state--then you are going to have to find some other explanation to your scripture--it cannot mean Fathering spirits--nor creating them in any way. Your attempt here will fail you.

Alanmolstad---also know that once you have God as your father, NOTHING can take you from his hand.....

dberrie---How are you relating this to God the Father being the Father of all spirits--and we His offspring? This is pertaining to the adoption--and happens after our belief, and after our spirit has inhabited our bodies. That all come after the spirit--not before it.

The evidence of that is all babies that die, their spirits return to the Father, and that before they have any belief.

Obviously--the spirit is there before belief. And the scriptures explain that God the Father is the Father of all spirits--belief or not.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Yes it does, I just showed you the verse,,,,

The verse you quoted was to men who had reached their full age--and was a pronouncement on those who chose evil over good.

The spirit was already long since in them. It came before those whom the pronouncement was made upon chose to do evil--and became satan's.

Your claim that belief is the dividing point of whether the spirit is of satan or God the Father is belied by the fact that all babies have a spirit that if they die--those spirits return to God--before belief.

Belief is pertinent to the adoption--but not to the Father of the Spirit. The scriptures are plain--God the Father is the father of all, as to the spirit.

Your argument is further complicated by the fact you claim that God is the Creator of all. Satan has created none--nor Fathered any spirit.

But the scriptures have spirits as the offspring of God:

Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.