So is Evan Jesus the father of Lucifer? Y or N?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Belief is pertinent to the adoption--but not to the Father of the Spirit. The scriptures are plain--God the Father is the father of all, as to the spirit.

God/Jesus created us all.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
Belief is pertinent to the adoption--but not to the Father of the Spirit. The scriptures are plain--God the Father is the father of all, as to the spirit.

Originally Posted by Billyray

God/Jesus created us all.

The scriptures beg to differ, on account of the spirit:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The scriptures beg to differ, on account of the spirit:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

yes, all this section is dealing with the Christian church.
the church is the only one with the faith, the calling, the baptism, etc....so we are the only ones who can call god our "Father"


for the unbelievers can not call God their father as jesus has so clearly pointed out, they are of their father the devil.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post---The scriptures beg to differ, on account of the spirit:

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

yes, all this section is dealing with the Christian church.

God is the Father of all, and above all--regardless of any church.

the church is the only one with the faith, the calling, the baptism, etc....so we are the only ones who can call god our "Father"

for the unbelievers can not call God their father as jesus has so clearly pointed out, they are of their father the devil.

Again--that is only pertinent to those who have reached the age whereby they can exercise faith in Christ, or deny Him. The spirit of man is there before that time.

That is what you and Billyray are going to have to face--if you are going to make a viable argument.

The spirit is present before the adoption. God is the Father of all spirits--regardless of the adoption, just as our earthly parents are our parents regardless of the adoption.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

God is the Father of all, and above all--regardless of any church.




Again--that is only pertinent to those who have reached the age whereby they can exercise faith in Christ, or deny Him. The spirit of man is there before that time.

That is what you and Billyray are going to have to face--if you are going to make a viable argument.

The spirit is present before the adoption. God is the Father of all spirits--regardless of the adoption, just as our earthly parents are our parents regardless of the adoption.

He is the father of all creation then right.. Fish, birds, sheep, and loins.. God created all of them as well.. Are such also His children? That is what I hear from you.. God is the father of mules.. You will have to see the difference in saying God is the father of all creation and that He is the Father of all people He has adopted as His own children.. After all The Holy Spirit in John 1:12 makes it clear that we become His children and that through faith in Jesus.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by James Banta

He is the father of all ......

God is the creator of all....but he is not the father of all....

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The scriptures beg to differ, on account of the spirit:

The scriptures teach that Jesus created everything. Right?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God is the creator of all....but he is not the father of all....

Right! So all of creation is His offspring.. Only those who have faith in Jesus are His children.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

all things are his creation

But only they who worship him in truth are his children and He their Father.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The scriptures teach that Jesus created everything. Right?

No. The4 scriptures state that He made all things that were made:


John 1:3---King James Version (KJV)


3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Christ did not make His God and Father--nor did Christ Father our spirits. That was ***igned to God the Father--and is the reason we refer to God the Father as the Father.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by James Banta

He is the father of all creation then right.. Fish, birds, sheep, and loins.. God created all of them as well..

That is usually ***igned to Jesus Christ. God the Father is designated as the Father of spirits, concerning "us":

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Are such also His children?

There is nothing within the Biblical record that states anything but our spirits are Fathered by God the Father--and we His offspring.

Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

That is what I hear from you.. God is the father of mules.. You will have to see the difference in saying God is the father of all creation and that He is the Father of all people He has adopted as His own children..

I have never made the claim that God fathered mules--but the scriptures do state that God the Father did indeed Father spirits:


Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

I see nothing in there that would include anything but the spirits of His offspring.

After all The Holy Spirit in John 1:12 makes it clear that we become His children and that through faith in Jesus.. IHS jim

But you are referring to the adoption here--which takes place years after our birth--and after we already have a spirit in our bodies.

That is likened to stating that the adoption means that the fathers of our flesh is made void by we becoming children of God through the adoption. James--our earthly fathers fathered our flesh regardless of any adoption or not--that is a separate event--our flesh was fathered before any adoption took place---just as our spirits were Fathered before our adoption--and were present years before our adoption. Spirits are present for those who never will receive the adoption. Spirits are present in babies that die before the adoption.

That is the fact that all need to address--diverting to the adoption cannot explain that, and remains your onus to deal with.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

God is the Father of all, and above all--regardless of any church.




.

John 8:44
"You belong to your father, the devil, ..."

The thing Jesus is teaching here is the correct understanding of the term "Father"
The term is to be taken to mean in the context of a loving relationship....and the people Jesus was talking to here clearly had no loving relationship with God, thus God was NOT their father at all......

Jesus was teaching that there are many people that do not have God as their Father.

[alanmolstad]

So to review:

Jesus is the creator of all things.
rocks.....suns....moons....trees....people....and angels, even the fallen angels.

He is the "Creator" of all things.

But God is not the "Father" of all things.
The term "father" is only true with the things made that god has a loving relationship with.

rocks do not love God, thus God is not the "Father" of the rocks.

People that worship a false religion do not love the true God of the Bible, therefore God is not their "Father"


Satan and his angels fell away and do not love God, therefore God is not their "Father"

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So to review:

Jesus is the creator of all things.
rocks.....suns....moons....trees....people....and angels, even the fallen angels.

I don't agree with that part of your statement. I believe that people are people, they are not things. Jesus was involved in the creation of things, but His Father did the creating of the spirits of mankind. That explanation makes the best sense to me, when all scripture on the subject is considered.

But God is not the "Father" of all things.

I agree with that part. God the Father is not the father of rocks, trees, planets, stars, etc. Because those are things.

The term "father" is only true with the things made that god has a loving relationship with...rocks do not love God, thus God is not the "Father" of the rocks.

I think I can agree with that as well, since I believe that God loves all His children, not just the obedient or saved ones.

People that worship a false religion do not love the true God of the Bible, therefore God is not their "Father"

The story of the Prodigal Son says you are mistaken about that. Even when the one son was rebelling against his father and against common sense and decency, the father never stopped being the man's father, and that son never stopped being a son to him.

Satan and his angels fell away and do not love God, therefore God is not their "Father"

To the extent that "father" is meant metaphorically, I agree, since satan and his followers disowned God in a sense, so your qualified use of "Father" in quotes is a nice way of showing that. But God never stopped being the father of those spirits. They no longer are heirs, or potential heirs, to God's kingdom, but that only means that they are disinherited children. It doesn't mean that they are suddenly non-children.

By the way, it's weird to be posting in a thread that I created 3 years ago.

[alanmolstad]

people are things...

There are only to sets in my post, "God: (who is not created) ...and "things" (that are created)

[alanmolstad]

and when I say that people that do not have faith can not claim God as their "Father" it is based on the words of Jesus at John 8:44

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

and when I say that people that do not have faith can not claim God as their "Father" it is based on the words of Jesus at John 8:44

"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

That is a great point.. The Holy Spirit through the Apostle John makes the fact that we can become His children by receiving Jesus very clear.. And if we can become His children we are being told we weren't His children to start with (John 1:12). And what is Jesus saying as he says we must be born again Spiritually from above? Isn't that saying we need to become His children? And the prophets saying that God created our spirit within us. Doesn't that tell us we were never begotten by his in some spirit world before our lives here? So aren't we a creation like all His other creations until we receive Him and become His children? You point is well taken we are children of wrath, children of the devil until be BECOME children of God.. IHS jim

[alanmolstad]

I think the reason the term comes up and is questioned is that according to Mormon teachings, they tend to use the term "father" when talking about the Lord, in the context of their concept that the Lord runs around heaven with a male genitalia that bangs females with to make the spirits and people we see in the bible and in our world.

That is why the Mormons are so upset to have someone point out that when speaking of God, we use the term "father" in the context of a loving relationship only ....we do not mean its because God made use of genitalia, for we believe God is pure spirit and thus has no form or body, or flesh.


This weird idea that God has male genitalia (and makes frequent use of it) is also kinda why a lot of Christians dont get much mileage when they point out the sexual fixation the early Mormon leadership like Joe Smith had.

Normally when a person is shown the truth that the leader of their religion was a really only in it for the young skirts he was chasing they would be expected to reject that leader as being false.
But Mormons dont seem to mind that Christians point out all the sex-related facts about their leaders because, well...lets face it, the god they worship is worse!

The god they worship has set the morality bar so low, that all the things we try to point out that show Smith was just in it for the sex dont really mean all that much to Mormons....
After all, their god is also in it for the sex too....

[alanmolstad]

God is NOT the Father is Satan...nor of the fallen spirits.

God is also not the Father of any who do not believe in His son.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by Fig-bearing Thistle

That makes God the Father the father of Satan.

Mormonism teaches that "heavenly father" sexually procreated Satan with one of his heavenly wives. That makes him the literal father of Satan.

Isn't God the Father also the father of Jesus?

Not by sexual procreation. The Word of God is the Second Person of the Trinity, and in time was born of Mary as the Son of God conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost (contrary to that jack***, Brigham Young).

[MacG]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Not by sexual procreation. The Word of God is the Second Person of the Trinity, and in time was born of Mary as the Son of God conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost (contrary to that jack***, Brigham Young).

...but do so in gentleness and respect...comes to mind

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

I never saw an answer from you guys on that question. Here are some T/F statements to help you get to where your Christology ends up:

1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F

2. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of Lucifer. T/F

3. The Bible mentions "the father of spirits." (Heb. 12:9) This refers to Jesus, since to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of all spirits. T/F

4. Lucifer is a very evil spirit. T/F

5. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus (the father of spirits) is the father of Lucifer (a very evil spirit). T/F

A good question, deserves a good answer, or something.
First, since we believe in the Trinity, and Satan isn't part of the Trinity, the answer is simple. Santan is a creation of Father, Son, thus not a brother of Jesus. Second only man was created in the image of God, thus Satan has no resemblance to God or to man. Satan like all other angels are God's creation spirit.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

A good question, deserves a good answer, or something.
First, since we believe in the Trinity, and Satan isn't part of the Trinity, the answer is simple. Santan is a creation of Father, Son, thus not a brother of Jesus.

Thanks for sort of responding to those True-false questions. How about you answer each one in order? And then I have a response to your statement

"Second only man was created in the image of God, thus Satan has no resemblance to God or to man. Satan like all other angels are God's creation spirit."

But I will wait for your answers, and then cover this afterward. Thanks.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

A good question, deserves a good answer, or something.
First, since we believe in the Trinity, and Satan isn't part of the Trinity, the answer is simple. Santan is a creation of Father, Son, thus not a brother of Jesus. Second only man was created in the image of God, thus Satan has no resemblance to God or to man. Satan like all other angels are God's creation spirit.

Ah, what?
I am not an evangelical, I is baptist, but I'll try and answer U.
1-T
2-T
3-T
4-T
5-T
Now how you define Spirits, spirit, or evil spirit/spirits, we may differ.
Here is Heb 12:9 the word spirits as it relates to is man's souls.
Our earthly fathers gave us life through the flesh, our Heavenly Father gave us an eternal soul. ie our spirit.

[alanmolstad]

1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F ....TRUE





2. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of Lucifer. T/F.....TRUE

3. The Bible mentions "the father of spirits." (Heb. 12:9) This refers to Jesus, since to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of all spirits. T/F.....TRUE





4. Lucifer is a very evil spirit. T/F....SORTA TRUE...The weird truth of the matter is that you can't actually find strong support for holding the view that Satan is an Angel or Archangel or some type of Spirit.
.Satan may be a fallen Angel to be sure.
And as a creature he was created by God.


5. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus (the father of spirits) is the father of Lucifer (a very evil spirit). T/F....FALSE .Jesus is not "father" but he is "Creator" as you point out in the questions .

The term "Father" as used in the bible is talking about a relationship that God has with believers.
This is why the Jesus teaches that if you are not a believer then the Lord is not your "father"....in fact Jesus tells us that Satan himself is also called a "Father" too!

This shows us clearly that the term "Father" or "Father of spirits" is talking about a relationship that God has with believers, and is not to be confused with God being the "Creator" of the universe.