So is Evan Jesus the father of Lucifer? Y or N?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Ah, what?
I am not an evangelical, I is baptist, but I'll try and answer U.

Thanks for making the distinction, but to me, Baptists are part of Evangelicalism, at least according to definitions I have seen. Do your beliefs really differ from those of Evangelicals? If so, can you list those differences?

And thanks for answering the questions.

1-T
2-T
3-T
4-T
5-T

Now how you define Spirits, spirit, or evil spirit/spirits, we may differ.

Yes, perhaps, and that is actually where I was heading with my questions since God's essence/substance and how it forms people's theology and beliefs about our relationship to God are what I'd like to keep discussing.

Here is Heb 12:9 the word spirits as it relates to is man's souls.
Our earthly fathers gave us life through the flesh, our Heavenly Father gave us an eternal soul. ie our spirit.

So doesn't Satan have an eternal soul? Isn't he, by definition, a spirit? And isn't God in essence a spirit too?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So doesn't Satan have an eternal soul?

I dont know....I do not remember a verse that would support the idea, do you?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

And isn't God in essence a spirit too?

I believe the Bible teaches that God is Spirit...
Im not sure it says God is "a" spirit????

I think by "spirit" we should understand it in this context as meaning God is "non-physical"

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Thanks for making the distinction, but to me, Baptists are part of Evangelicalism, at least according to definitions I have seen. Do your beliefs really differ from those of Evangelicals? If so, can you list those differences?

And thanks for answering the questions.

1-T
2-T
3-T
4-T
5-T

Yes, perhaps, and that is actually where I was heading with my questions since God's essence/substance and how it forms people's theology and beliefs about our relationship to God are what I'd like to keep discussing.
RealFakeHair..
What we have here is failure to communicate. We Christians don't believe or could even imagine The God of the Holy Bible having a *****, fleshly or spiritually as do the LDSinc.


So doesn't Satan have an eternal soul? Isn't he, by definition, a spirit? And isn't God in essence a spirit too?

RealFakeHair
The LDSinc. may believe your heavenly father had sex with you heavenly mother or something? It is so confusing how you can keep up with your god using his spirit ***** or his fleshly *****. Perhaps you can help me out here, did your heavenly father use his spirit ***** to create his Son Satan or did he use his fleshly *****? My guess is the spirit one.
You may think I am making fun of your faith, but I am not I am just trying to understand Joseph Smith jr. thinking here.
No, Satan does not have a soul, he is an angel and not and never was human.

[nrajeffreturns]

Thanks Alan for answering.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

4. Lucifer is a very evil spirit. T/F....SORTA TRUE...The weird truth of the matter is that you can't actually find strong support for holding the view that Satan is an Angel or Archangel or some type of Spirit.
.Satan may be a fallen Angel to be sure. And as a creature he was created by God.

So it may or may NOT be true that Satan is a spirit? He's not a corporeal being, correct? If he can possess people's (or animals') bodies, wouldn't he have to be a spirit? Or are you saying that evil spirits do exist, but there's not enough evidence that Satan himself is one? He's some other kind of being--not corporeal like us mortals, but not spirit either? "None of the above" ?

5. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus (the father of spirits) is the father of Lucifer (a very evil spirit). T/F....FALSE .Jesus is not "father" but he is "Creator" as you point out in the questions .

Yes, I was wondering whether there could be a difference. If the Bible says that Jesus is the father of spirits--and if Satan is a spirit--then how can Jesus NOT be the father of Satan? Are you saying that Jesus is ONLY the father of SOME spirits (the good ones) and that NO ONE is the father of the evil spirits?

The term "Father" as used in the bible is talking about a relationship that God has with believers.
This is why the Jesus teaches that if you are not a believer then the Lord is not your "father"....in fact Jesus tells us that Satan himself is also called a "Father" too!
This shows us clearly that the term "Father" or "Father of spirits" is talking about a relationship that God has with believers, and is not to be confused with God being the "Creator" of the universe.

That is possible, but it's also possible that the term "Father" can be used in the Bible with multiple meanings, and not always the metaphorical "believer relationship" meaning in every case.

Take for example Luke 3:38:
who was the son of Enos, who was the son of Seth, who was the son of Adam, who was the son of God.
Was "the son of God" used there to mean that Adam was a believer?

I also noted that your answer to question 5 was different from RealFakeHair's answer, but we can look into that in a later post.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I dont know....I do not remember a verse that would support the idea, do you?

He is a sentient being, correct? He isn't going to die, correct? So apparently he's going to live on into eternity, and he has a soul, so....eternal soul, it would seem.

Definition of SOUL
1 : the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life
2
a : the spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe
b capitalized Christian Science : god 1b
3
: a person's total self
4
a : an active or essential part
b : a moving spirit : leader
5
a : the moral and emotional nature of human beings
b : the quality that arouses emotion and sentiment
c : spiritual or moral force : fervor

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/soul

Doesn't the definition include Satan as having a soul?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I believe the Bible teaches that God is Spirit...
Im not sure it says God is "a" spirit????

It depends on which Bible you read. Some include the "a" and the more literal ones leave it out.

I think by "spirit" we should understand it in this context as meaning God is "non-physical"

That seems reasonable. And doesn't it allow for Satan to be a spirit in essence, too, since Satan is non-physical?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Thanks Alan for answering.



So it may or may NOT be true that Satan is a spirit?

The Bible is very clear when it says that "God is Spirit"

But I cant think of a verse off hand that really nails down the nature of Satan....
There are verses that talk about Satan 'transforming himself into a "Angel of Light"...but this seems to only ppoint out that Satan is not really an "Angel" of light....so what is he then?...could we say he was an "Angel of darkness"?....perhaps.

But that too is just a guess.

I have read a bunch of GOOGLE search results about Satan, and Im not yet sure we can clearly point to any answer as being what the Bible says he was or is....

I would be open to seeing what verses you have on the topic...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Thanks Alan for answering.



So it may or may NOT be true that Satan is a spirit?

He's not a corporeal being, correct?

If he can possess people's (or animals') bodies, wouldn't he have to be a spirit?

Or are you saying that evil spirits do exist, but there's not enough evidence that Satan himself is one?

He's some other kind of being--not corporeal like us mortals, but not spirit either?

"None of the above" ?

In order to answer such questions we would need to really nail down things with a clear verse dealing with this matter.
I dont know of any such verse...
I would be very open to looking at any verse you have on the topic....

The study of Satan is a side-issue, and so there is room for people to search for answers and disagree...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Yes, I was wondering whether there could be a difference. If the Bible says that Jesus is the father of spirits--and if Satan is a spirit--then how can Jesus NOT be the father of Satan? Are you saying that Jesus is ONLY the father of SOME spirits (the good ones) and that NO ONE is the father of the evil spirits? .

The Bible is very clear in teaching that God is not the father of all men...

Jesus points out this clearly...as well as teaches that even Satan is called 'father' to the unbelievers.

So if Satan is the "father" of the unbelievers, then there is some room here to also hold that Satan might also be the "Father" of all the fallen angels and fallen spirits too....

The case can be made to support this idea....

[RealFakeHair]

[QUOTE=nrajeffreturns;141290]Thanks for making the distinction, but to me, Baptists are part of Evangelicalism, at least according to definitions I have seen. Do your beliefs really differ from those of Evangelicals? If so, can you list those differences?

You can be a baptist and evangelical, or not. I don't want to get to deep into the water at this time, maybe later.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I also noted that your answer to question 5 was different from RealFakeHair's answer, but we can look into that in a later post.

"different" ?...yes, my wording my well be very "different' than others here on the forum.

I try to be different anyway....I try to write in an interesting style that is my own, and different.

But we should not mix up an answer that makes use of 'different" wording and "different" logic with being an answer that is 'opposite' and opposed to their answers.

Im not sure my answer is in 'disagreement " or not.....
Better ask them that question...LOL

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

He is a sentient being, correct? He isn't going to die, correct? So apparently he's going to live on into eternity, and he has a soul, so....eternal soul, it would seem.

Is there any verse in the whole Bible that teaches that Satan has a soul?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

. And doesn't it allow for Satan to be a spirit in essence, too, since Satan is non-physical?

as long as you always make sure you understand that such an answer is "just a guess" you will be ok..

The problem comes when we try to build a whole foundation of thinking on top of what started out as just our own personal guess.....

[alanmolstad]

I did a bit of searching, and as far as i can see, Satan does not have a soul...

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I did a bit of searching, and as far as i can see, Satan does not have a soul...

The answer does seem to depend on one's definition of the word. Under the " the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life" and "total self" definitions, Satan seems to have a soul, but under the "United body and spirit" definition, he doesn't.

But is Satan a SPIRIT?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The answer does seem to depend on .....

it really ONLY depends on just one thing......finding Textual support in the bible


Unless we got a verse that teaches something, we can not just use a dictionary to prove something is true.

Thus , if we just stick to the bible we have to come to the conclusion that while humans have a "soul" there is nothing, not even a hint , not even one single verse in the bible that teaches that Satan has a "soul".


So we can not teach that Satan, or any angels for that matter do have a soul....
Nor can we then turn around and build other ideas on top of what we know is a wild guess .

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

But is Satan a SPIRIT?

Once again, we would need to have the idea supported in the bible with a clear verse ....Know of any?


Back when I was in Bible School I had a teacher that pointed out the difference between "Fallen Angels", and "Evil Spirits"

The idea my teacher had was that these were two totally different creatures.
I personally am not all that convinced this was true, but I have not really done much study on the question.

[alanmolstad]

So to review:

God is the creator of all creation...
But God is not the Father of creatures that he does not have a relationship with.

This is supported in the Bible in several places where Jesus points out that some men have the Lord as their father, and other men have Satan as their "father"
Now because we know that Satan is not the "creator" of anything, this points us to the idea that there is a big difference between being a "creator" and being a "father".


Creator = means you made something.
Father = means you have a type of loving father/son relationship with someone.

And now we add to this the understanding that at times the Bible will use the word "all" to be talking about only a very limited sub-set of a greater whole, ("Eve is the mother of all life") .
Thus you can now see that when the bible says that God is the "father of all spirits" it is really only addressing the spirits that God has this type loving relationship with.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

The answer does seem to depend on one's definition of the word. Under the " the immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life" and "total self" definitions, Satan seems to have a soul, but under the "United body and spirit" definition, he doesn't.

But is Satan a SPIRIT?

Why do you even ask such a question? Satan is a fallen angel. Unlike Joey Smith and Emanuel Swedenborg's false teachings that angels are men, or preincarnate men, angels are a separate creation. They are not in the human category. Get that out of your brain and a whole bunch of stuff will become clear to you. Here is a study on angels: http://bible.org/article/angels-god%...tering-spirits Notice, they are not human spirits, but a special created order of spirits - created not sexually begotten by Mr. and Mrs. Mormon God! And they were created by Jesus Christ. Now for once, why don't you study something from the bible?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Why do you even ask such a question?

Um, maybe because asking questions tends to be a good way of getting....ANSWERS?

Satan is a fallen angel.

That doesn't prove that he's not ALSO a spirit. Your fallacy is the old false dichotomy one, where you think that Satan must be EITHER an angel, OR a spirit, when in the real world, it's possible he could be BOTH. It's as if you're saying "Bill Clinton can't be a human being, because he's a Democrat."

Try some logic for a change--millions have done so, and lived to tell the tale!

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That is usually ***igned to Jesus Christ. God the Father is designated as the Father of spirits, concerning "us":

Ephesians 4:4-6---King James Version (KJV)


4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.



There is nothing within the Biblical record that states anything but our spirits are Fathered by God the Father--and we His offspring.

Acts 17:29----King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.



I have never made the claim that God fathered mules--but the scriptures do state that God the Father did indeed Father spirits:


Hebrews 12:9---King James Version (KJV)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

I see nothing in there that would include anything but the spirits of His offspring.



But you are referring to the adoption here--which takes place years after our birth--and after we already have a spirit in our bodies.

That is likened to stating that the adoption means that the fathers of our flesh is made void by we becoming children of God through the adoption. James--our earthly fathers fathered our flesh regardless of any adoption or not--that is a separate event--our flesh was fathered before any adoption took place---just as our spirits were Fathered before our adoption--and were present years before our adoption. Spirits are present for those who never will receive the adoption. Spirits are present in babies that die before the adoption.

That is the fact that all need to address--diverting to the adoption cannot explain that, and remains your onus to deal with.

All life sprang from God. Therefore all life is His offspring. You are correct in coming up with the idea that we are adopted His children.. Because both statements are true the ONLY logical answer is that by creation we are the offspring of God and by adoption we can be made His children. Remember Jesus called the religious men of His day sons of the devil.. Why? Because they hasn't been born of the Spirit. God also told us through the prophet that God formed our Spirits within us. We had to have a body first and within that flesh God created our spirits. Also it is good to know that Jesus created all things visible and invisible. Our spirits do conform to the definition of all that Jesus created. Is there any other way to understand the p***age?

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

The LDS doctrine of a mutual creative act between the Father and one of His wives just doesn't conform to the Bible as to who created what.. IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

That doesn't prove that he's not ALSO a spirit. Your fallacy is the old false dichotomy one, where you think that Satan must be EITHER an angel, OR a spirit, when in the real world, it's possible he could be BOTH

Humans and angels are not the same. But I know that you believe that they are your spirit brothers who were begotten and born to heavenly mother. This is another difference between mormonism and Christianity.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Humans and angels are not the same.

I didn't realize that was the issue under discussion. I thought it was whether angels who don't have bodies are spirits. Specifically, the fallen angel Satan. Why can't he be a spirit?

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

I didn't realize that was the issue under discussion.

But this is a major difference between Christian and Mormon beliefs. Mormons believe that angels are our spirit brothers (begotten and born to heavenly mother) in various stages of their eternal progression.