So is Evan Jesus the father of Lucifer? Y or N?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But this is a major difference between Christian and Mormon beliefs. Mormons believe that angels are our spirit brothers (begotten and born to heavenly mother) in various stages of their eternal progression.

Doesn't the Bible teach that Lucifer is a son of....someone? And even you guys believe that Lucifer was an angel. So the only GERMANE point to discuss here, now, is who is right on the question of:

"Is the devil a spirit? Or isn't he?"

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Doesn't the Bible teach that Lucifer is a son of....someone? And even you guys believe that Lucifer was an angel. So the only GERMANE point to discuss here, now, is who is right on the question of:

"Is the devil a spirit? Or isn't he?"

The Bible doesn't teach that Lucifer was the spirit child of God and one of his wives i.e. that he was begotten and born to heavenly parents and your brother and Jesus' brother. This is a significant difference between what Mormonism teaches and Christianity teaches.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

"Is the devil a spirit? Or isn't he?"

I would have to see a bible verse that teaches it....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Doesn't the Bible teach that Lucifer is a son of....someone?

Son of the morning you mean?....the reference to the appearance of Venus in the sky?

[alanmolstad]

My own view is that while the idea that Satan is an angel is very poplar, there is not a lot of information in the bible about the topic.
The best verse that comes to mind is "'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."


and...

"Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back."

Now we know Michael could be called an archangel, so this wording might also suggest that Satan is also an archangel, but there is room to disagree on that too.



We don't have any real support in the bible at all for Satan having a soul or a spirit...


I also dont believe that the term 'spirit" needs to be an alive creature.

Consider:...the spirit of love....the spirit of giving...the spirit of friendship.
All these are real spirits in that they are not physical, but they also are not alive.

There is also the spirit of evil, the spirit of greed, the spirit of drunkenness...
These also are real spirits, but they are not creatures, they are not alive.

[alanmolstad]

But getting back to the point...

As I have talked about before here, the bible teaches that while the Lord is the creator of Satan, the Lord is not his "Father".

The term "Father" is talking about the loving close relationship that the Lord has with his children.
This also is why Jesus teaches that some men have Satan as their "father"


The verse saying that the Lord is the "father of all spirits" is talking about only the spirits that are in a loving relationship with the Lord....He is their father.

The spirits that are at odds with the lord do not have the lord as their "father"....

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The Bible doesn't teach that Lucifer was the spirit child of God ..

Let's try to arrive at an answer to this question: Is Lucifer a SPIRIT?

One way we could try to find the answer is to look at definition of the word spirit and see if Lucifer fits that definition.
From merriam-webster, the definitions that have a decent chance of being relevant:

Definition of SPIRIT
1: an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms (IMO, Lucifer doesn't fit this one)
2 : a supernatural being or essence: as
a capitalized : holy spirit (IMO, Lucifer doe fit this one)
b : soul 2a (IMO, Lucifer might fit this one)
c : an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : ghost 2 (IMO, Lucifer might fit this one)
d : a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being (IMO, Lucifer might fit this one)

4: the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person (IMO, Lucifer probably does fit this one)

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

My own view is that while the idea that Satan is an angel is very poplar, there is not a lot of information in the bible about the topic.
The best verse that comes to mind is "'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

I agree. Thanks for that. I think it's useful info.

and...

"Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back." ...so this wording might also suggest that Satan is also an archangel, but there is room to disagree on that too.

We don't have any real support in the bible at all for Satan having a soul or a spirit...

If Lucifer is not a spirit being, then what IS his essence/ousios, ontologically?

I also dont believe that the term 'spirit" needs to be an alive creature.
Consider:...the spirit of love....the spirit of giving...the spirit of friendship.
All these are real spirits in that they are not physical, but they also are not alive. There is also the spirit of evil, the spirit of greed, the spirit of drunkenness...

You are right, because the word "spirit" in English can have multiple meanings, including literal and metaphorical, as you noted. Just like with many other words in the Bible, such as the ones that make God look like a chicken if they were taken literally.

These also are real spirits, but they are not creatures, they are not alive.

But we are talking about Lucifer, who IS alive, and is a sentient, thinking, feeling, scheming, intelligent PERSON. If he has no corporeal body, then almost by definition, he is a spirit, just like the ones called Legion that invented "Deviled Ham" in the New Testament.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If Lucifer is not a spirit being, then what IS his essence/ousios, ontologically?

again as i was pointing out....

We need a very clear verse to support any answers.
The problem is that on this issue we just dont have any real convincing proof of an answer.

Sorry, but thats just the way it is.

I would be interested in seeing any Text support for the answer, but as of right now and after i have looked at the most common listed verses I still dont think we can say for sure what answer is correct.

The Bible is just not clear on the issue.



thats good enough for me, as i dont want to end up saying an answer that turns out to be just a "guess".

But this also is the place where some people try to look outside the Bible for the answer.
They quote all kinds of support for their answer, ie - Books of fiction...church fathers, great translators, old Hebrews, and the dictionary.

But when you ask them for a clear Bible verse?.....mute.

This is why I think that the answer that Satan is an Archangel or normal Angel is very popular, and may be true.
But the problem is that I cant find a place where the Bible teaches this idea clearly.
So I would suggest that we dont try to come up with an answer that is just a "guess" and then try to use our guess as the foundation for other very important teachings.

If our guess is wrong we have build a foundation for an important teaching on shifting sand....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

If he has no corporeal body, then almost by definition, he is a spirit, just like the ones called Legion that invented "Deviled Ham" in the New Testament.

Again.....for important teachings we need important proof.

If we want to use an idea to be part of the foundation for an important teaching, then we better have very clear support in the bible for this idea.

The bad news is that when we are dealing with the question of the nature of Satan, the bible does not give us very clear information.


So a lot of people that try to say that they have the 'answer' really can only point to a pile of different things that are all leading them to make a "guess".

In the end.....thats all they got to show for it....a guess.


I dont really like to guess on important matters.
I think that if a person is basing a whole way of thinking about God and the nature of things important to their church teachings on a guess, it only shows that in their eyes, "Personal views' are on equal footing as solid "Bible teachings"

[nrajeffreturns]

Hebrews seems to say that at least some angels are spirits:

14 Angels are merely spirits sent to serve people who are going to be saved. (Heb. 1:14 CEV)

So if Satan is a person who once was an angel...

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Hebrews seems to say that at least some angels are spirits:

14 Angels are merely spirits sent to serve people who are going to be saved. (Heb. 1:14 CEV)

So if Satan is a person who once was an angel...

Satan is not a person, end of story!

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Hebrews seems to say that at least some angels are spirits:

14 Angels are merely spirits sent to serve people who are going to be saved. (Heb. 1:14 CEV)

So if Satan is a person who once was an angel...

"if".....

The "if" is the reason we cant make this idea the foundation of a teaching that is important.
The "if" means its a guess...


While it is fun to guess.....we cant mix up our guess with things that we can prove.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Hebrews seems to say that at least some angels are spirits:

14 Angels are merely spirits sent to serve people who are going to be saved. (Heb. 1:14 CEV)

So if Satan is a person who once was an angel...

Jeff perhaps you can tell us where you are going with this because thus far I don't think people have a clue what you are after.

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff perhaps you can tell us where you are going with this because thus far I don't think people have a clue what you are after.

I think they call it fishing.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

I think they call it fishing.

I thought we were just talking about the very uncertain nature of Satan?.....

The truth is, that there is not a lot in the Bible about the nature of Satan, and so most of the teachings we see out in the marketplace are mostly all based on written works of fiction and movies.

And thats not enough to say "we know the answer" clearly.

So lets review again:

God is the "Creator" of Satan.
But God is not the "Father" of Satan.

The term "Father" is addressing the relationship that people have...
This is why Jesus pointed out that the unbeliever does not have God as his "Father"

Now because the idea that God is not the "Father" of the unbeliever is so clearly taught in the Bible, we can therefore understand that God is not also the "Father" of angels and Spirits that do not worship him.

So just as God is the Father,,,yet not the father of all...so too is God the Father of the spirits that worship him, but not the father of the angels and spirits that do not worship him...


so who is the "Father" of the fallen angels and evil spirits?
My answer to that question is to once again point out the text at John 8:44 teaches that when you do evil, when you do not worship God, when you do such things as the fallen angels have committed, then the bible clearly tells us that the "Devil" is your "Father"

So there is a strong case to be made that not only is Satan the "father" to the lost men, but also to all who do not worship God....

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I thought we were just talking about the very uncertain nature of Satan?.....

There is no uncertainty to the nature of Satan, he is the Serpent. The true nature of an angel is in plan english (the middle man.) Somewhere between God and man.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

There is no uncertainty to the nature of Satan, he is the Serpent. .

Ahh yes, the nature of Satan is the same as that of the reptiles.



(Well....thanks for making that......"Crystal Clear"....LOL)

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Ahh yes, the nature of Satan is the same as that of the reptiles.



(Well....thanks for making that......"Crystal Clear"....LOL)

Why, you think Joseph Smith jr, is the only Snake out there?
Rev;12:9 The dragon, that old serpent which is the Devil and Satan. and Joseph Smith jr.....NRFHT.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Why, you think Joseph Smith jr, is the only Snake out there?
Rev;12:9 The dragon, that old serpent which is the Devil and Satan. and Joseph Smith jr.....NRFHT.

?....
Hows that?


what do you mean?

[RealFakeHair]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

?....
Hows that?


what do you mean?

Snake in the gr***, viper tonuge kind of thing... Don't turn your back on a snake.....

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by RealFakeHair

Satan is not a person, end of story!

Really? What characteristic does he have that makes him a non-person?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"if".....
The "if" is the reason we cant make this idea the foundation of a teaching that is important.
The "if" means its a guess...
While it is fun to guess.....we cant mix up our guess with things that we can prove.

"If" you're right about then, then I guess you have a point.

Here is the syllogism:

1. You believe satan is an angel.
2. The bible says that angels are spirits.
3. That kind of leads to the idea that satan is a spirit.

Is there anything really illogical in the above?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Jeff perhaps you can tell us where you are going with this because thus far I don't think people have a clue what you are after.

Where are you having trouble connecting "Angels are spirits" with "Satan is an angel, and therefore a spirit" ? If you're following up to there, then the next step is to note that you guys say that God is, in His essence or nature, spirit.

So here's the info so far:

1. Satan is spirit.
2. God is spirit.
3. Therefore, they are both spirit at their essence or nature or ousios.

4. The Bible says that God is the father of spirits.
5. Therefore, it's not too unreasonable to conclude that God is the father of satan.

That's pretty much where I am heading. Did I lose you at any step along the way?

[alanmolstad]

Once again...God is NOT the father of Satan...LOL

We use the term "father" only when there is a loving relationship.
None is between Satan and God...therefore God is not the father of Satan.


This is in-line with the teaching by Lord Jesus that unbelievers also do NOT have God as their "Father"

So who do I think is the father of the unbelievers and of the fallen angels?...SATAN!


So this means that Jesus is the "Creator" of Satan and the fallen angels..But God is NOT their "father"

This also points out the error shared by Mitt Romney and other Mormons who hold that Satan and Jesus are "Brothers"

They are NOT brothers.
They are creature (Satan) and Creator (Jesus)