So is Evan Jesus the father of Lucifer? Y or N?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

1. You believe satan is an angel.

Oh, is that what the bible teaches?....Im still looking for a verse that clearly teaches this......know of any proof to that idea?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Oh, is that what the bible teaches?....Im still looking for a verse that clearly teaches this......know of any proof to that idea?

You are correct. I forgot that you are the one who said "while the idea that Satan is an angel is very poplar, there is not a lot of information in the bible about the topic."

I will keep looking for more. Thanks.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You are correct. I forgot that you are the one who said "while the idea that Satan is an angel is very poplar, there is not a lot of information in the bible about the topic."

I will keep looking for more. Thanks.

What do you think a Cherub is, nra? "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "`You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. [13] You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. [14] You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. [15] You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you." (Ezk. 28)

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

Where are you having trouble connecting "Angels are spirits" with "Satan is an angel, and therefore a spirit" ? If you're following up to there, then the next step is to note that you guys say that God is, in His essence or nature, spirit.

So here's the info so far:

1. Satan is spirit.
2. God is spirit.
3. Therefore, they are both spirit at their essence or nature or ousios.

But angels (and fallen angels such as Satan) were created by Jesus. Jesus is God and is uncreated and eternal. There is no comparison between creator and creation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Billyray

But angels (and fallen angels such as Satan) were created by Jesus.

The Bible has spirits being Fathered by God the Father:


Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)


9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Even Jesus conceded to that fact:


John 20:17----King James Version (KJV)


17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Bible has spirits being Fathered by God the Father:

Where does it say that spirits were "fathered" by God the Father?

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where does it say that spirits were "fathered" by God the Father?

Maybe it doesn't, but if it doesn't, that means that spirits including satan's were 'fathered' by Jesus, which isn't really a position you will be happy with, either. That is sort of the point of this whole thread, so thanks for bringing us back to it.

You see, one of you had started a thread back in 2009 questioning the LDS idea that both Jesus and Lucifer are created sons of God the Father. So, 9 months later, I started a thread questioning the Evangelical idea that Lucifer is a created son of God the Son (Jesus).

So your post brings us back to that topic. You seem to reject the idea that God the Father is the father of spirits.
Yet Jesus, being God Himself, is spirit, correct?
And Jesus mentions His Father being the father of spirits.
But as some such as Apologette have kindly pointed out, Satan was a cherub/angel. ("You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you."

And the Bible says that angels are spirits.
So Satan is a spirit.
God the Father is the father of spirits.
So perhaps the Bible supports the LDS idea (that God the Father is the father/creator of spirits including satan's) more than it does the Evangelicial idea (that Jesus is father/creator of spirits including satan's).

That's pretty much where I was going with this, and this is where we have ended up. So I am not sure there is a lot more that we need to discuss. Thanks to everyone for your thoughts and contributions to this thread. It has taught me some things I hadn't realized before.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

You see, one of you had started a thread back in 2009 questioning the LDS idea that both Jesus and Lucifer are created sons of God the Father.

The LDS teaching is that we were begotten and born to heavenly parents and this includes you and me and Jesus and Satan. But the Bible doesn't teach this.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

So your post brings us back to that topic. You seem to reject the idea that God the Father is the father of spirits.
Yet Jesus, being God Himself, is spirit, correct?
And Jesus mentions His Father being the father of spirits.
But as some such as Apologette have kindly pointed out, Satan was a cherub/angel. ("You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you."

The issue is the idea that LDS teach that we all have been "fathered" because what you mean by this is that each one of us including Jesus, you, me, and the angels were begotten and born to a heavenly mother. But this is not supported by the Bible.

[nrajeffreturns]

Originally Posted by Billyray

The LDS teaching is that we were begotten and born to heavenly parents and this includes you and me and Jesus and Satan. But the Bible doesn't teach this.

It is true that the Bible doesn't go into details. It just says what we have covered so far.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

It is true that the Bible doesn't go into details. It just says what we have covered so far.

But the Bible teaches that Jesus created everything visable and invisible which would include the angels--thus Jesus is the creator of Lucifer (who later became Satan) not the spiritual brother of Satan.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by nrajeffreturns

God the Father is the father of spirits.
So perhaps the Bible supports the LDS idea (that God the Father is the father/creator of spirits including satan's) more than it does the Evangelicial idea (that Jesus is father/creator of spirits including satan's).

You are quoting from Hebrews 12. Let's back up a little bit in that chapter.

Hebrews 12
4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

Who is "Lord" in this section of scripture from the LDS point of view?

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----The Bible has spirits being Fathered by God the Father:


Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)


9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?


Even Jesus conceded to that fact:


John 20:17----King James Version (KJV)


17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where does it say that spirits were "fathered" by God the Father?

Hebrews12:9 confirms that God the Father is the Father of spirits. Is that some spirits--or all spirits?

It certainly included Christ's spirit:

John 20:17----King James Version (KJV)


17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.



Could you explain for us how God the Father can be the Father--and not have Fathered?

Could you explain for us how we can be the offspring of God--and our spirits not be of the same species as God the Father?


Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)


29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hebrews12:9 confirms that God the Father is the Father of spirits. Is that some spirits--or all spirits?

It certainly included Christ's spirit:

Where does this verse say that God "fathered" any spirit in the Mormon sense which means that they were begotten and born to a heavenly other?

This verse doesn't say that Jesus was begotten and born to a heavenly mother. What a blasphemous suggestion.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by Billyray

You are quoting from Hebrews 12. Let's back up a little bit in that chapter.

Hebrews 12
4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

Who is "Lord" in this section of scripture from the LDS point of view?

Bump for Jeff or DB.

[dberrie2000]

dberrie----The Bible has spirits being Fathered by God the Father:


Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)


9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?


Even Jesus conceded to that fact:


John 20:17----King James Version (KJV)


17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Quote Originally Posted by Billyray View Post---Where does it say that spirits were "fathered" by God the Father?

dberrie---Hebrews12:9 confirms that God the Father is the Father of spirits. Is that some spirits--or all spirits?

It certainly included Christ's spirit:

John 20:17----King James Version (KJV)


17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.



Could you explain for us how God the Father can be the Father--and not have Fathered?

Could you explain for us how we can be the offspring of God--and our spirits not be of the same species as God the Father?


Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)


29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Where does this verse say that God "fathered" any spirit in the Mormon sense which means that they were begotten and born to a heavenly other?

Moving the goalposts when you find yourself scripturally outgunned will not make your point either. The scriptures have God the Father as the Father of all spirits. That is a paternal connection--regardless of what else you add to the equation. And those spirits are the offspring of God:

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Billyray--offspring are always of the same species as their Father--mother or no mother. And if God the Father is the Father of all spirits--then all spirits are brothers and sisters by virtue of the fact they share the same Father--mother or no mother. Your point is a moot one, unless you can show us what other God you believe is the Father of the remainder of the spirits.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Moving the goalposts when you find yourself scripturally outgunned will not make your point either. The scriptures have God the Father as the Father of all spirits. That is a paternal connection--regardless of what else you add to the equation. And those spirits are the offspring of God:
.

I am not moving the goalposts DB I am trying to get you to show me where the Bible teaches what you believe (i.e. what Mormonism teaches) which is that God the Father and his wife had spirit babies including Jesus. But this is not Biblical--rather it is heresy. I asked you to address the verses in Hebrews just preceding the ones that you quoted but thus far you have avoided discussing those verses. Why is that do you think?

Hebrews 12
4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons? “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.”

Who is "Lord" in this section of scripture from the LDS point of view?

[James Banta]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Moving the goalposts when you find yourself scripturally outgunned will not make your point either. The scriptures have God the Father as the Father of all spirits. That is a paternal connection--regardless of what else you add to the equation. And those spirits are the offspring of God:

Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Billyray--offspring are always of the same species as their Father--mother or no mother. And if God the Father is the Father of all spirits--then all spirits are brothers and sisters by virtue of the fact they share the same Father--mother or no mother. Your point is a moot one, unless you can show us what other God you believe is the Father of the remainder of the spirits.

But BD why does a person's offspring have a requirement to become his child in at all? The Bible makes it clear that we must become God's children through faith in Jesus (John 1:12-13).. We are His children to start with why wold we be required to be born spiritually of Him at all.. We should naturally be His children being born of Him the first time.. By the FACT that God requires that we are to be born again spiritually becoming His children through faith in Jesus make it easy to see that being God's offspring is therefore not the same thing as being His children. By right of creation we are His offspring, that creation of our spirit being created within us (Zech 12:1).. BEING ALL HIS OFFSPRING IS A GENERAL STATEMENT ABOUT ALL MANKIND. They are His offspring without regard to faith in Jesus. To become His children there is that requirement. And those that have no faith in him? They are Children of their father, the Devil (John 8:44). IHS jim

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray--offspring are always of the same species as their Father--mother or no mother. And if God the Father is the Father of all spirits--then all spirits are brothers and sisters by virtue of the fact they share the same Father--mother or no mother.

Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

Can you tell me what this verse says particularly with respect to "offspring"?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post ---Billyray--offspring are always of the same species as their Father--mother or no mother. And if God the Father is the Father of all spirits--then all spirits are brothers and sisters by virtue of the fact they share the same Father--mother or no mother.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

Can you tell me what this verse says particularly with respect to "offspring"?

That satan could not produce offspring through the woman. Could you explain for us how that negates the fact the scriptures have God the Father as the Father of spirits--and they are His offspring?

Hebrews 12:9----King James Version (KJV)


9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?


Acts 17:29---King James Version (KJV)

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

[Billyray]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Billyray
Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

Can you tell me what this verse says particularly with respect to "offspring"?

DB
That satan could not produce offspring through the woman.

Can you tell me whose offspring this is--"between your offspring"?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

Billyray
Gen. 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

Can you tell me what this verse says particularly with respect to "offspring"?

DB
That satan could not produce offspring through the woman.

Originally Posted by Billyray

Can you tell me whose offspring this is--"between your offspring"?

No. But if there are spiritual offspring from another than God the Father--then that is evidence there are other Gods. Are you saying that satan has spiritual offspring? That he is a creator also?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by nrajeff

I never saw an answer from you guys on that question. Here are some T/F statements to help you get to where your Christology ends up:

1. To Evangelicals, Jesus created every thing and every spirit in existence (except His own, of course). T/F

2. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of Lucifer. T/F

3. The Bible mentions "the father of spirits." (Heb. 12:9) This refers to Jesus, since to Evangelicals, Jesus is the creator of all spirits. T/F

4. Lucifer is a very evil spirit. T/F

5. Therefore, to Evangelicals, Jesus (the father of spirits) is the father of Lucifer (a very evil spirit). T/F

Jesus created everything that is created. Therefore, He created angels. Lucifer was an angel who rebelled against God, and was cast out of heaven. He was not Jesus' brother, nor did Jesus "procreate" Satan sexually, as the repulsive doctrines of Mormonism teach. And by the way, God is only a Father by adoption (read first chapter of John and believe it), not because he spends all day on some planet near Kolob impregnating goddess wives (Mormons and Muslims have a lot in common).

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Apologette

not because he spends all day on some planet near Kolob impregnating goddess wives (Mormons and Muslims have a lot in common).

The highly sexual nature of Mormonism is likely the result of the sexual fixation that the founding members of the Mormon CULT had with younger and younger women and girls.

In my Bible School days we came to see the Mormon teachings about their God sexing it up all the time as a reflection of what Mormon men think is their idea of what heaven should be like.....(endless sex with women other than one's wife).

I once heard a story of a Christian being asked to talk to a girl whose parents were worried she was about to marry-in to the Mormon faith of her boyfriend.

The Christian talked to the young girl, but this girl was convinced that the Mormons were only good.
Then after dinner , the Christian asked the girl's parents if they minded that their future son-in-law would be spending the afterlife having sex with other girls besides their daughter?
The daughter overheard this question and was very shocked, and a bit angry that the topic came up informing the christian that any husband of hers would be more than satisfied with her alone.

Then the christian turned and asked the boyfriend if this was so?
The boyfriend sheepishly answered that he believed it was his role to produce many children, and that part of his faith was this idea of many wives...and so to make the children that a world would need he would have to have the required sex with other willing women.

The daughter was shocked again to hear this coming from her boyfriend...

Lets just say that the marriage plans were put on hold....LOL



In my own personal view, this fixation with sex found within the Mormon teachings of their god is also the reason why when christian confront Mormons with the truth about the infidelity of the Mormon founders it does not seem to matter to the Mormons to learn this.

Mormons believe their god has lots of sex, so why would we expect different from their leaders?....LOL

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The highly sexual nature of Mormonism is likely the result of the sexual fixation that the founding members of the Mormon CULT had with younger and younger women and girls.

In my Bible School days we came to see the Mormon teachings about their God sexing it up all the time as a reflection of what Mormon men think is their idea of what heaven should be like.....(endless sex with women other than one's wife).

I once heard a story of a Christian being asked to talk to a girl whose parents were worried she was about to marry-in to the Mormon faith of her boyfriend.

The Christian talked to the young girl, but this girl was convinced that the Mormons were only good.
Then after dinner , the Christian asked the girl's parents if they minded that their future son-in-law would be spending the afterlife having sex with other girls besides their daughter?
The daughter overheard this question and was very shocked, and a bit angry that the topic came up informing the christian that any husband of hers would be more than satisfied with her alone.

Then the christian turned and asked the boyfriend if this was so?
The boyfriend sheepishly answered that he believed it was his role to produce many children, and that part of his faith was this idea of many wives...and so to make the children that a world would need he would have to have the required sex with other willing women.

The daughter was shocked again to hear this coming from her boyfriend...

Lets just say that the marriage plans were put on hold....LOL



In my own personal view, this fixation with sex found within the Mormon teachings of their god is also the reason why when christian confront Mormons with the truth about the infidelity of the Mormon founders it does not seem to matter to the Mormons to learn this.

Mormons believe their god has lots of sex, so why would we expect different from their leaders?....LOL

All we have to do is look back to the founder of Mormonism to find the origin of the ultra-chauvinism one finds in the cult. The mid-19th century atti-tude toward women was standard theology in the cult - the man being the "head" of the family, even to the extent of having the authority to resurrect the wife. In fact, the man was "god" to his family, and would rule over his own kingdom in the hereafter, being served by the women he'd been sealed to. For these early Mormons, salvation really was becoming a god - this has been diminished in Mormonism today, since it is such an obviously ludicrous goal. But early Mormons took these things seriously. Didn't Brigham say that you had to have at least three wives to get exalted to godhood? Not sure, but I know that's the practice and belief of the Fundie Mormons. Women are simply rungs on the godhood ladder for men, and the more a man has, the greater one's kingdom. It's a pathetic excuse for Christianity, isn't it? Very sad that people believe this stuff that is so clearly anti-biblical. But, in the end, the Mormon allegiance is to their "priesthood" leaders, and they treat them as gods.

I once asked a Pentecostal girl who had become a Mormon how she'd feel if her husband too other wives (if Momronism reins***uted polygamy in the future). She said she just prayed that God would give her grace to accept that - I said, so you would ask God for the grace to ignore the commandments of Jesus in the NT? She didn't say much after that.