Some mainstream Christians believe God is a man

[alanmolstad]

If my salvation is maintained via my own actions, Im sunk.....LOL

There is no way I will ever be sinless enough to earn my salvation.

There is no good act I can ever do that will counterbalance the sin in life.

the things my spirit wants to do, I fail at.
The things I know I should not do, I do anyway.

This is why the Lord's sheep do not get lost or stolen....because the Good Shepherd will go looking for us, and find us, and carry us back.
The Good Shepherd never returns empty-handed.
And when found, the little sheep is carried home...(does not return under his or her own power)

thus....to know if you are "found" you stay close to god's word.
Within God's word you find Him...


So I never need to worry about the future, Because God is already there!

The bible tells us that the work the Lord is doing in you, He will Finish it!

The work will not be left half finished...


At your baptism you die in Christ.
The law held the living, but the dead are beyond the hold of the law.
You rise from the baptism waters and are a new creature in God's eyes.

[alanmolstad]

I will tell you a story about what I'm trying to say:
--------------------------------------------------------


If I were walking and heard you calling out for help,
And I ran over to you only to find you had fallen down into a deep hole in the ground,
what I would do would be to look around for a strong rope to lower to you.

What you would need to do is simply grab the rope and allow me to pull you out.

(Thats kinda what the Church does when it offers the Truth to the Mormon.)

Now when I get you out of the hole you are going to be kinda "dusty" to be sure.
After all, you were down in the hole a while.

So its expected that you are going to be very dusty.
But the important thing to remember is -

"You are saved"

Dusty?...to be sure, but safe none the less.


In the context of the person who might be now in a Cult, what Im saying is that it is to be expected that even after a person has come out of the Mormons that there is still a good chance that a few Mormon teachings with cling to the person still.

This is to be expected...

After all, the former Mormon was in the cult for a long time.
They may have family who are Mormons....or other connections.

But I try to remember that we don't toss the baby out with the bathwater.

and so while I will try to help the person clean themselves of all the smaller Mormon false teachings that they might still struggle with, the Big Thing to keep in mind is - They are saved!

[alanmolstad]

I hope that answers your questions about the "if"....


The important thing I try to tell people about my own salvation is that "if" its up to me to do stuff to keep myself saved?...Im sunk!

If anyone in the christian church was required to maintain enough good works that it somehow 'added up', to a sum total high enough to earn our salvation?....the whole church is doomed



Thus salvation I have in Christ is not earned by me or my good deeds....nor maintained by me and my good deeds.

I'm saved not because of my good works...I'm saved in order to perform my good works.


My works do not save me.
My works do not cause my salvation.
My good works reveal my salvation.

So what is the strong connection between works and faith?
The connection is that with one you always get the other.

an example:
Faith = car motor running
Works = the sound of the motor running

Does the sound cause the motor to run?....no
But can the motor run without the sound heard?....no

So what does it mean to the motor if there is no sound heard?...it means the motor is off.

So to sum up...
works do not save us, but works always appear with faith...for faith without works is like a motor turned off,,,,,it has no sound....





ok?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

If I were walking and heard you calling out for help,
And I ran over to you only to find you had fallen down into a deep hole in the ground,
what I would do would be to look around for a strong rope to lower to you.

What you would need to do is simply grab the rope and allow me to pull you out.

(Thats kinda what the Church does when it offers the Truth to the Mormon.)

Now when I get you out of the hole you are going to be kinda "dusty" to be sure.
After all, you were down in the hole a while.

So its expected that you are going to be very dusty.
But the important thing to remember is -

"You are saved"

What if there was a person named "Bart" who, as a young man, believed he was in the hole, so he called out to Jesus to pull him out, and he was grateful to Jesus for saving him, and he said "I know am now saved" but later, as he studied the Bible more closely, he ended up an agnostic?

If you'd asked him when he was 20 years old "Do you know you are saved" he would have said "Yes, and there's no way I will ever end up losing my salvation."

But if you ask him now, he would say "I don't even believe that Jesus saved anyone."

So back to my question: Is it possible to know that in your future, you will remain a faithful believer until the day you die?

[John T]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Mary gave birth to jesus ...and jesus is both god and man...this is the heart of catholic /christian teaching...

The Roman Catholic Encyclopedia says:
The Blessed Virgin Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ the mother of God. [THIS IS THE FIRST SENTENCE IN THE ARTICLE]

As to Mary, St. Luke (1:34) tells us that she answered the angel announcing the birth of Jesus Christ: "how shall this be done, because I know not man". These words can hardly be understood, unless we ***ume that Mary had made a vow of virginity; for, when she spoke them, she was betrothed to St. Joseph. [41] The most opportune occasion for such a vow was her presentation in the Temple. As some of the Fathers admit that the faculties of St. John the Baptist were prematurely developed by a special intervention of God's power, we may admit a similar grace for the child of Joachim and Anna. [42].....



Mary's Divine motherhood is based on the teaching of the Gospels, on the writings of the Fathers, and on the express definition of the Church. St. Matthew (1:25) testifies that Mary "brought forth her first-born son" and that He was called Jesus. According to St. John (1:15) Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Word Who ***umed human nature in the womb of Mary. As Mary was truly the mother of Jesus, and as Jesus was truly God from the first moment of His conception, Mary is truly the mother of God. Even the earliest Fathers did not hesitate to draw this conclusion as may be seen in the writings of St. Ignatius [72], St. Irenaeus [73], and Tertullian [74]. The contention of Nestorius denying to Mary the ***le "Mother of God" [75] was followed by the teaching of the Council of Ephesus proclaiming Mary to be Theotokos in the true sense of the word. [76]

[41] cf. Aug., de santa virginit., I, 4, P.L., XL, 398
[42] cf. Luke, i, 41; Tertullian, de carne Christi, 21, P.L., II, 788; St. Ambr., de fide, IV, 9, 113, P.L., XVI, 639; St. Cyril of Jerus., Catech., III, 6, P.G., XXXIII, 436


[72] ad Ephes., 7, P.G., V, 652
[73] adv. haer., III, 19, P.G., VIII, 940, 941
[74] Against Praxeas 27
[75] Serm. I, 6, 7, P.G., XLVIII, 760-761
[76] Cf. Ambr., in Luc. II, 25, P.L., XV, 1521; St. Cyril of Alex., Apol. pro XII cap.; c. Julian., VIII; ep. ad Acac., 14; P.G., LXXVI, 320, 901; LXXVII, 97; John of Antioch, ep. ad Nestor., 4, P.G., LXXVII, 1456; Theodoret, haer. fab., IV, 2, P.G., LXXXIII, 436; St. Gregory Nazianzen, ep. ad Cledon., I, P.G., XXXVII, 177; Proclus, hom. de Matre Dei, P.G., LXV, 680; etc. Among recent writers must be noticed Terrien, La mère de Dieu et la mere des hommes, Paris, 1902, I, 3-14; Turnel, Histoire de la théologie positive, Paris, 1904, 210-211.

from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

Since that seems to be important to you, I researched the article for you, I thought iit would be a deciding factor to see exactly how the Roman Catholics view Mary.

Since God the Son, Holy Spirit and the Father are always God, having no beginning nor creation point, it is a theological oxymoron to call Mary "the Mother of God"

As to this from your post #44

God was made made man, this is what the bible teaches.

The Bible does NOT teach that.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Verse 6 says that there never was a time that Jesus was not God
Verse 7 indicates that Jesus added to his divinity, the nature of a man
Verse 8 tells us that this was called, "The humiliation of Christ"

So now you have it in context, and more important, you know why the terms that you used in posts # 39 and 44 are incorrect, according to Scripture.

[alanmolstad]

Bart is 6 years old.....and kneels by his bed and says the "Believer's prayer' and takes the lord into his heart.
At that moment, that young boy has p***ed forever from death onto Life.

Forever!

yes, as time goes on the boy may become a man who drifts away....

But when the Lord looks at all the life of Bart, regardless of the sins that came into his life, or the pain he struggled with, God will always see a little 6 year old child kneeling by his bed and offering his life to his Lord...

There are NO Abortions in God's family.

When I became a Christian at my baptism God already knew the end from the beginning.
God was not offering me a 'conditional salvation"

I received Life everlasting....because all the other forms of salvation are fake!

Only the salvation that can last forever regardless of my sins, is worth talking about...worth dieing on a cross to bring to me...and the only one I claim.

[alanmolstad]

John T


Jesus is 100% god Almighty
Mary is Jesus's mom
and unless Jesus is as fully human as I am his death is meaningless.

that's all Im saying....

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Bart is 6 years old.....and kneels by his bed and says the "Believer's prayer' and takes the lord into his heart.
At that moment, that young boy has p***ed forever from death onto Life.

Forever!

yes, as time goes on the boy may become a man who drifts away....

But when the Lord looks at all the life of Bart, regardless of the sins that came into his life, or the pain he struggled with, God will always see a little 6 year old child kneeling by his bed and offering his life to his Lord...

There are NO Abortions in God's family.

When I became a Christian at my baptism God already knew the end from the beginning.
God was not offering me a 'conditional salvation"

I received Life everlasting....because all the other forms of salvation are fake!

Only the salvation that can last forever regardless of my sins, is worth talking about...worth dieing on a cross to bring to me...and the only one I claim.

Most excellent. Then I am saved. Thanks for the clarification.

[alanmolstad]

always here to help!

[Snow Patrol]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

always here to help!

You have a different perspective here. Most of your fellow critics of the LDS Church would say that if I'm truly saved then I would leave the LDS Church. You say even a 6 year old can be saved and then it really doesn't matter what happens after that. Very interesting.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

You have a different perspective here. .....

If you are looking to find some guy to compare me to around here?..Then I suggest we look to Walter Martin!

I would love to have you compare my views to the views of Walter Martin!

SnowPatrol, pick a topic that Walter Martin taught on or has a recording on, and ask me my views on the same topic and lets see how I do?....

[neverending]

Originally Posted by Snow Patrol

Then by the same token could we say that you were never really a Mormon?

Snow,
As I look back over my life and the religion I was raised in, I will say, I was a Mormon, I was one because that's what my parents were but I never believed in several of its doctrines. So to say I wasn't a TBM, I never was one and I have many reasons as to why I wasn't. I went through the motions, did many things to make my parents happy but in my heart I really didn't care and ALWAYS felt different; ALWAYS felt like an outsider. Do you know what it feels like to go to church and not feel like you belong, that your peers look down their noses at you and never allow you to be their friend? That is all I can say. I can tell you that I know with everything that is in me that God had His plan for me, His Holy Spirit was speaking to me from the time I was a young girl; I didn't know it at the time til I went to the temple to be married. So sure, say that I never really was a Mormon for that doesn't upset me in the least.

[Christian]

Alan posted:
I cant judge the lady, all i know is that she was headed in the right direction and must have been mixed up....and I would tend to cut her some slack on this issue.

On the basis of SCRIPTURE, I can:
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
NKJV


God was made made man, this is what the bible teaches.

You need to re-read Philippians 6. He TOOK ON THE FORM OF a man. The Holy Spirit and the Father never became man. Jesus took on the form. He never ceased to be God.

So in Christ we do share in his humanity.
Thus there is room to give her the benefit of the doubt because she is not actually here to tell us for herself what she was talking about.

Scripture STILL says of her and folks like her:

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
NKJV


I believe that if a person is a Christian that this will not protect them from getting mixed up in teachings, and it is very easy to get mixed up with the JWs or Mormons or other cults due to family connections.

John 6:38-40
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
NKJV

Jesus doesn't lose ANY Christians to satan.

And who knows, perhaps in the case we are talking about here, that this lady felt she had to attend a Mormon church out of simple loyalty to her family, but that she also likely considered the Mormon's teachings nuts.

And maybe she had three heads! Perhaps she even had wings and a beak!

You may believe your suppositions. I will stick with SCRiPTURE.

in Jesus Christ,
morefish

[alanmolstad]

Neverending, that was a very moving story you have given to Snow, thanks for posting it....

[John T]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

John T


Jesus is 100% god Almighty
Mary is Jesus's mom
and unless Jesus is as fully human as I am his death is meaningless.

that's all Im saying....

Alan, when you posted this below, you are stating something quite different from what you just posted above:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]

Very, because it is correct in that God became flesh, the flesh of a human.

This is also why we teach that Mary was the mother of God.

We can say this knowing that God has no mother, yet for the salvation of men the Lord was born of a woman, and thus has a mother.

You are mixing quite a few things up here.

In today's post you are dealing with the issue of soteriology, or how a person is saved through the vicarious (subs***utionary) death of Jesus for our sins

In the post of a few days ago, you are dealing with the nature of divinity, meaning God Himself. When you use the phrase "Mother of God" you are getting into all sorts of false theologies about Jesus not being pre-existant, and you are also "dabbling in mormonism" when you seem to indicate by the usage of that phrase, that a person can become a god if his mother was a virgin.

YES, I KNOW THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU BELIEVE!

However, I draw out the conclusions of where your words lead, so you can see why Protestants do not use that phrase.

[alanmolstad]

John T, if you ever have a question about anything, just ask!

[alanmolstad]

neverending, so where do things stand now in your life?

Have you found a way to get along with the people you listed?

[Christian]

EXCELLENT post! Mormons won't listen though. . .they never do. They aren't interested in GOD'S Word, but only in their religion.

In Jesus,
fish

[neverending]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

neverending, so where do things stand now in your life?

Have you found a way to get along with the people you listed?

alan, this is a very sensitive subject for me. All I can say is this, I never see any of the people I mentioned. My parents are dead. Others were never a part of my life even though I tried to be friends and forced to attend church with them and school. What I learned was to ignore those people but the hurt is always there even though most of the time those feelings are pushed way down until I run into a rude, thoughtless Mormon here.
What is important is knowing I belong to Jesus Christ, that I am born again and His love for me will never fail. I lean on His promise, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." (Hebrews 13:5)

[alanmolstad]

neverending : That was likely the best way to go...

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Bart is 6 years old.....and kneels by his bed and says the "Believer's prayer' and takes the lord into his heart.
At that moment, that young boy has p***ed forever from death onto Life.

Forever!

yes, as time goes on the boy may become a man who drifts away....

But when the Lord looks at all the life of Bart, regardless of the sins that came into his life, or the pain he struggled with, God will always see a little 6 year old child kneeling by his bed and offering his life to his Lord...

There are NO Abortions in God's family.

When I became a Christian at my baptism God already knew the end from the beginning.
God was not offering me a 'conditional salvation"

I received Life everlasting....because all the other forms of salvation are fake!

Only the salvation that can last forever regardless of my sins, is worth talking about...worth dieing on a cross to bring to me...and the only one I claim.

You believe in baptismal regeneration?

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

If you are looking to find some guy to compare me to around here?..Then I suggest we look to Walter Martin!

I would love to have you compare my views to the views of Walter Martin!

SnowPatrol, pick a topic that Walter Martin taught on or has a recording on, and ask me my views on the same topic and lets see how I do?....

baptismal regeneration for one. Are you Lutheran?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Apologette

baptismal regeneration for one. Are you Lutheran?

on the road now...typing with a kendle is the pits

[alanmolstad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT-8_VDMERo
is what i believe

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Apologette

You believe in baptismal regeneration?

As Walter martin makes very clear, the baptism of a person is an outward sign that salvation has come into the person's heart.
This is why people in the Bible are clearly saved and Christian, yet had not yet been baptized.

Now for some different christian churches we see them teach that "You must be baptized', however I also know that within the teachings of a church like the Catholic church they also do have a 2nd teaching that holds that if a person was seeking to be baptized yet is unable to be baptized and dies, God will take this into account.
Thus even for Catholics if being baptized was truly 100% needed to be saved, then God could not take our faith into account...