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  1. #1
    GateKeeper
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    Default The Logos (As I understand it)

    Many say that the Word is Jesus Himself, but most Christadelphians understand it differently. Many view it to be God's Wisdom. Worldly wisdom differs greatly from God's wisdom. James tells us that the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits; impartial and sincere.

    Logo's is the Greek term for "Word". According to Greek terminology, Logo's means "Divine Expression", or perhaps more appropriately, God's divine Wisdom, and power.

    Pro 8:22-36

    In the above p***ages Solomon is speaking entirely of God's wisdom. Wisdom was [clearly] in the beginning with God, but wisdom is not necessarily something [separate] from God; it might be said to be God's substance, reality, essence, and perhaps even the metaphorical [fountain] from which all things derive.


    According to Proverbs, and according to John 1 - this wisdom, and power was in the beginning with God, and it was God. Christ declared this Wisdom, and power during His ministry, meaning He revealed it to us. He revealed to us the Father that dwelt in him.

    God's Wisdom was manifest in Christ as the "Word" of God. He became the light for all mankind. He was, and is the light, but He was not the [literal] Word. [At least not in my mind] but rather the "Word" was made to manifest within Him. (It was made evident)


    Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth [came] by Jesus Christ.
    Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


    John is telling us that Grace and truth came to us by Jesus, and that no man has seen the Father at any time. But, Jesus [His only begotten son] has revealed him to us. He declared to us God's wisdom, and power, which was clearly demonstrated throughout His ministry.

    (This very same wisdom was ordained before the world began.)


    In 1 Corinthians 2 verse 6-8 Paul makes this statement:


    1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
    1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto [our] glory:
    1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


    It was God's divine Wisdom, or "Word" that Christ revealed to us. Had the rulers of the world known this wisdom, and recognized what Christ was revealing, they would have never crucified our Lord, and Savior.
    Christ gave to us God's Word; He gave to us His Wisdom, truth, and Love through which we are sanctified. He gave to us His son, whom saves us from the wages of sin, and whom revealed to us the father.


    Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
    Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
    Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

    Jesus was full of grace and truth. To be full of something implies to have an abundance of, or for something to be present and very noticeable, or even as a container filled with substance. Much like a pen being filled with ink. Christ was filled with the Word; He was filled with God's Wisdom/Love/Truth. Jesus was/is God's chosen vessel, whom revealed to us God's Word, or rather "truth".

    (From a Christadelphian perspective)

    Gk

  2. #2
    sayso
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    Hi GK!

    I had never heard of Christadelphianism before reading this tonight. But unbelief in the deity of Christ is not Biblical. It is denying Jesus for Who He truly is.

    Your posting of scripture from the Gospel of John 1 verses 17 and 18 means nothing without the rest of what was written ahead of it. That is reading out of context.

    You state that from your position that the Word was/is not Jesus but the wisdom of God. But clearly John says that the Word was God Himself. John goes on to call the Word "He" and "Him". Can the written word "logos" or God's wisdom be called "He"? Verse 14 says that the Word became flesh. Whether you want to call it Word or Wisdom, it became flesh. That means taking on human form. This scripture also refers to Jesus as the Light. It also says that John testified about "Him" saying that "He existed before me." Jesus didn't simply reveal written words to us, He is the Word made flesh.

    You'll find further down in this post the scripture from Philippians 2:5-8 where Paul wrote that Christ Jesus had "existed in the form of God" before taking the form of a bond-servant.

    John 1

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2 He was in the beginning with God.

    3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

    4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

    5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.

    7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

    8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

    9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

    10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

    11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

    12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

    13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

    14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

    16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.




    Philippians 2:5-8

    5 Have this at***ude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

    6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

    7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

    8 Being found in appearance as a man,
    He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

  3. #3
    Scripturefocus
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayso View Post
    Hi GK!

    I had never heard of Christadelphianism before reading this tonight. But unbelief in the deity of Christ is not Biblical. It is denying Jesus for Who He truly is.

    Your posting of scripture from the Gospel of John 1 verses 17 and 18 means nothing without the rest of what was written ahead of it. That is reading out of context.

    You state that from your position that the Word was/is not Jesus but the wisdom of God. But clearly John says that the Word was God Himself. John goes on to call the Word "He" and "Him". Can the written word "logos" or God's wisdom be called "He"? Verse 14 says that the Word became flesh. Whether you want to call it Word or Wisdom, it became flesh. That means taking on human form. This scripture also refers to Jesus as the Light. It also says that John testified about "Him" saying that "He existed before me." Jesus didn't simply reveal written words to us, He is the Word made flesh.

    You'll find further down in this post the scripture from Philippians 2:5-8 where Paul wrote that Christ Jesus had "existed in the form of God" before taking the form of a bond-servant.

    John 1

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2 He was in the beginning with God.

    3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

    4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

    5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.

    7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

    8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

    9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

    10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

    11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

    12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

    13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

    14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"

    16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.




    Philippians 2:5-8

    5 Have this at***ude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

    6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

    7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

    8 Being found in appearance as a man,
    He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
    Gatekeeper, I actually know quite a lot about Christadelphian beliefs. Could you explain the Bible's indication that the Son existed wih the Father in relationship prior to the Incarnation?

  4. #4
    GateKeeper
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scripturefocus View Post
    Gatekeeper, I actually know quite a lot about Christadelphian beliefs. Could you explain the Bible's indication that the Son existed wih the Father in relationship prior to the Incarnation?
    Being that I am not a Chritadelphian, but only attend their meetings from time to time, I think you might be better served to ask a Christadelphan Jesus' relation with the father prior to His earthly dwelling. If you wish to know my view apart from a Christadelphian perspective, (as my views do differ from their own on this matter), then I'd be happy to explain elsewhere.

    Blessings

    GK

  5. #5
    Scripturefocus
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    Quote Originally Posted by GateKeeper View Post
    Being that I am not a Chritadelphian, but only attend their meetings from time to time, I think you might be better served to ask a Christadelphan Jesus' relation with the father prior to His earthly dwelling. If you wish to know my view apart from a Christadelphian perspective, (as my views do differ from their own on this matter), then I'd be happy to explain elsewhere.

    Blessings

    GK
    That's fine. Where would you like to discuss it?

  6. #6
    asdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by GateKeeper View Post
    Being that I am not a Chritadelphian, but only attend their meetings from time to time, I think you might be better served to ask a Christadelphan Jesus' relation with the father prior to His earthly dwelling. If you wish to know my view apart from a Christadelphian perspective, (as my views do differ from their own on this matter), then I'd be happy to explain elsewhere.

    Blessings

    GK
    Quote Originally Posted by Scripturefocus View Post
    That's fine. Where would you like to discuss it?
    Hi GK! I'd also be very interested to see where your beliefs differ from "official" Christadelphian doctrine.

  7. #7
    GateKeeper
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdf View Post
    Hi GK! I'd also be very interested to see where your beliefs differ from "official" Christadelphian doctrine.
    It is my understanding that Jesus was the manifestation of the Word of God. I believe He was conceived by this Spirit/Word, and therefore became that Spirit in His reality. All others merely reflect His light from within themselves, but are not the light, as I believe that Jesus is the light. He is the door to the kingdom, all who came before Him were thieves and robbers, and all who come after are vessels of His reality.

    Jesus had a beginning (Obviously), whereas Gods Word/Wisdom/Spirit is eternal. Jesus was conceived by the Spirit/Word which made the Logos a very real part of His being. He was also given a name above every name by which we are saved. He not only manifest the Spirit, or "Logos", but He became that Spirit in His reality. (The Word was made Flesh)

    Scripture tells us that Jesus is Lord, and it is only through Him that any of us are saved. We merely allow Him to dwell in us, and reflect the light that we know in Him. He is the Spirit of truth and none come to the father, but by Him. "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Jesus is that name. He makes His dwelling in those whom desire to know the Spirit of Truth, but it is also my belief that He is available to all men regardless of theological views.

    The Word/Logos was God inasmuch as it contained Gods "essence", or "substance" as a creative power. You can't pour the entire ocean (God) into a coffee cup, but you can fill it with its substance. The Logos is God's substance. The logos contained God's Spirit/Wisdom, and was the creative force behind creation as laid out in Proverbs 8th Chapter.

    It is my view that the manifestation of the logos only occurred once in Jesus. There could no longer be manifestations of the Logos separate from Jesus, as Jesus became the logos Himself. All other manifestations are manifestations of Gods son "The" anointed one. All who come after Jesus are simply vessels filled with His substance. The Spirit/Word/Wisdom became a living being, and was given a name above every name. (Jesus the Christ - Son of God)

    Think about it like this: Jesus was conceived by the Logos/Spirit of God (The creative power, and Wisdom of our Creator). That Spirit was a very real part of His makeup/His being/His essence, but so was the Flesh of Mary. Before He could be glorified, and become the Logos alone, He had to destroy His human/Flesh nature completely. This was accomplished in the three days He was in the grave, and at His resurrection. He was raised a glorified body, as the Logos. He had defeated death, or rather His flesh, and was raised a Spirit (Logos) in a "glorified" body.

    I have also given a great deal of thought as to what the door keeper/gate keeper represents in John 10:3, and I realized that I am in control of the forces I let in, and the forces I don't. For instance, I could allow (In myself) resentment, and bitterness, and anger, and all the other negative evils that destroy my peace, but I have realized that I am the keeper of the gates when it comes to me.

    It is I who opens the door for Christ when it comes to myself. Being that Christ dwells within us as Spirit, is it not reasonable to ***ume that each of us are responsible for opening the door for Him? Each of us are the Gate Keepers when it comes to ourselves, yes?

    Christ is the door, and when we open that door, He fills us with Himself. We have to be willing to open the door, however. We have to desire the things of God, and be willing to let Christ in. What He accomplished on the the cross extends beyond our systems of belief. He has become the Spirit of truth by which all men can be Saved.

    Not all accept this Spirit within themselves. Many prefer the forces of darkness above the light. Many prefer to anger, and hold resentment, and bitterness towards others. Many prefer pride over humility, hate over love, and the workings of the flesh above the Spirit. We have to open ourselves up to His reality, and to His ways. We have to value, and embrace love deeply within ourselves, (God is Love) and it is through Gods love that we find Christ - The Spirit of Truth.

    I hope this helps you understand where I am coming from better, and show you how my views differ from Christadelphian thought.

    Love and Blessings,

    James

  8. #8
    aristotle
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    first, John 1:1 ends with a clear declaration that the Word was God i.e. deity not to mention that john says that the Word was "proston theon" , face to face with God. no matter how you slice it, the Word (Christ) is God.

    secondly, Hebrews 1 says that the Father says to the Son, "Thy throne, O God..." i think i will pay attention to what the Father says.

    thirdly, john 20 is very explicit. john wrote all he wrote that we might know that Jesus is the Christ. Christ, of course, is the Word who became flesh which is john 1.

    in short, if you want to make arius your hero, ok! but he was a heretic because he did deny the very thing that the apostles spoke of over and over again. Paul said it very well, "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess Ieyasus Christos Kurios, Jesus Christ, Jehovah God" amen!!

  9. #9
    canucks33
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    54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." 57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" 58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

    JOHN 8:54-58 (NIV)

    The hearers of Jesus Christ knew what Jesus was trying to say..... they understood the meaning of Jesus calling Himself as "I am" (v.8) and what was their response? They would like to stone Jesus Christ for blasphemy.

    The problem with some of the cults is that they inject "their meaning" to the text (eisogesis) instead of getting what the text is trying to say (exegesis). There are many texts in Scripture that when Jesus claimed His Divinity, His listeners knew the implication. Clearly Jesus is not just a "reflection" of God or a "sample" of God.

    As others pointed out, Jesus clearly had no beginning. In fact, Paul wrote that Jesus embodied full-deity as His Father in Colossians : 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (Col 1:19-20 NIV)

    The theology of the Christadelphians is a mixture (or hybrid) of Gnosticism. I hope and pray that God may make this clear to you James. Because our salvation not only depending on our confession that Jesus is our Savior but who He really is.... God Eternal.

  10. #10
    GateKeeper
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    Default Some thoughts

    I apologize for my extended absence, but I would like to 'discuss' this a bit further. From what I am reading, you are suggesting that I must view Jesus to be God, which I highly disagree with. We are to know both God and His son as love (God being love, and Jesus the manifestation of). Manifest is defined as reveal. Jesus revealed Gods truth to mankind, as Gods fullness dwelt in him (Not as Him). Jesus epitomized what it means to love. (In short it means losing our own lives for God and for those we share this world with).

    Christianity today force feeds false creeds and doctrines to the unaware. Creeds like the Trinity fall into this category. Some who push this false doctrine do so deceitfully, while others truly believe (Not even able to truly understand the concept of all three being one, yet somehow divided into three, which would make the one true God into three (Or is it four) gods, being that all three parts of the totality of God are said to be equal.

    I find it sad that you would even suggest that I attempt to wrap my mind around such lunacy and then try to tell me that I must believe in this nonsense to be saved.

    Here's my view of God, the son, and the Holy Spirit (Just so you know). God is love, Jesus is Gods wisdom applied by the son of man, and the Spirit (Word) the essential essence of both.

    We know that we know God by knowing love. Why? Because scripture tells us so. On that same note, we know Jesus by living as he lived (Through the Holy Spirit).

    This is wisdom: To live by and through Gods Spirit (Gods wisdom applied by man). The truth is that we too become sons and daughters of God when we are born again of His Spirit.

    Jesus was born of God, just as we become born of God. We are anointed with Gods Love by His (Spirit) only when we come to value God (Love) above our selves. We then willingly die to our selfish/carnal ways for God, so we might be lights to our fellow man in hope that they too will come to glorify our Father in Heaven.

    In order to love God and neighbor (As Jesus loved us), we gotta die to our selfish, self serving ways, and live according to God's essence (Spirit).

    Jesus also showed us that we are to become caretakers over the earth as opposed to rulers (The servant is not above His master after all). Far too many want to rule over others in life, which is why there is so much suffering in the world.

    Jesus was certainly Gods son, but not God on earth. He did however reveal God to us, living His life in subjection to Gods will. Gods fullness of Spirit, or rather Gods essence dwelt in His mortal body fully (The Spirit, or rather the essence of God in him governed His life), just as Gods Spirit can dwell in our own, enabling [Us] to live as Jesus lived (With love for God, and love for our fellow man).


    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    We know both God and His son by becoming sons and daughters ourselves. In other words, we must be 'born again' of the Spirit (Love), allowing that Spirit to govern our lives.

    Love is key; love dwells in us all waiting to be utilized, so [we] might know life in abundance.


    GateKeeper

  11. #11
    pilgrim1411
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    Jesus is God. And unless you believe that you will not be saved.

  12. #12
    nothead
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    Quote Originally Posted by pilgrim1411 View Post
    Jesus is God. And unless you believe that you will not be saved.
    Em, scripture? Or was this some kinda cultic belief of yourn?

  13. #13
    RealFakeHair
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    Quote Originally Posted by nothead View Post
    Em, scripture? Or was this some kinda cultic belief of yourn?
    dang, where U been?

  14. #14
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    No one has ever seen God.

    We saw Jesus.....Jesus is ALL we will ever come to know about God.

    Jesus is God wrapped in flesh.

    All of what God is, is in Jesus.

  15. #15
    Columcille
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    Default Liar, lunatic, or Lord... or the fourth option lack of consistent authority.

    Many say that the Word is Jesus Himself, but most Christadelphians understand it differently.
    While there may be elemental truths in some of what you say, it is really just a clouded redefinition. Someone has already demonstrated prior verses with the blocked type to demonstrate that Jesus was himself the Word. While the "Logos" is a great example of John to tie both the Jew and the Greek conception of "logos," "logos" is not "sophia." There may be similiar characteristics as sophia in Proverbs 3.19-20 with the logos in John, the intent of the writers clearly shows a distinction of its usage. Of course, we should view God as being neutral... neither male nor female as Jesus clearly shows with the question put to him of the woman who had seven husbands. But the purpose of the gender clearly shows two things, that God is like the female in creating life... it is a type of metaphor. But the male is stronger, so more authoritative and so the Word became flesh in the form of a man and not a woman. At this conjucture, you would have to say that Jesus is one of three types of people... either he is a liar knowing he was not God and said he was to get something he wanted, or he was a lunatic in that he believed he was something he was not, or he was who he said he was.

    Now your position might not want to adhere to this particular choices, so you must somehow create a fourth option... he never claimed to be God, which would mean you selectively pick and choose what verse of the bible you want... making your authority to be selective and inconsistent or you redefine words to reinterpret certain p***ages and then ignore the same consistent application for other verses, which gets you into the same sort of problems... or even further you do both. So the point in question is, what determination do you have in regards to sacred Scripture and/or sacred Tradition?

  16. #16
    GateKeeper
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    Since Jesus had a beginning (Begotten by God), it is not plausible that Jesus made the world Himself, or that He was God on earth. We know that God created all things for himself, so I wish to stay true to this thought, and reason these p***ages out, while staying true to scripture.

    Luk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. (Luke 2:4o)

    and also in Luke 2:52....

    Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

    It is quite evident that God granted to Jesus His grace, and that He (Jesus) increased in His favor. It makes no sense if Jesus was God the son. God the son is NEVER mentioned in scripture. You have to do a great deal of manipulating scripture to view Jesus as God [imo].

    According to Luke Jesus was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him. Here we have one account of Him being filled with truth in .... Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. ....and another account of Him being filled with wisdom, growing strong in the Spirit (In Luke).

    God's truth, and God's wisdom, and God's spirit are one and the same. Luke 2:40 suggested that Christ became strong in spirit. 1 John 5 states that the spirit is truth, i.e Wisdom

    Christ was conceived by the Spirit, begotten by God, and born of Mary - He was filled with the Spirit, through which all truth emanates. He was filled with God's wisdom, truth, and power.

    Logo's is the Greek term for "Word". According to Greek terminology, Logo's means "Divine Expression", or perhaps more appropriately, God's divine Wisdom, and power.

    "God's wisdom, and power was in the beginning with God, and it was God. Christ declared this Wisdom, and power during His ministry, meaning He revealed it to us. He revealed to us the Father that dwelt in him."

    God's Wisdom was manifest in Christ as the "Word" of God. He became the light for all mankind. He was, and is the light, but He was not the [literal] Word, but rather the "Word" was made to manifest within Him. (It was made evident)

    Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth [came] by Jesus Christ.
    Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father,
    he hath declared him

    These scriptures suggests to me that Jesus was a vessel for the Word of God, and not God Himself. Christ was the appointed vessel, and light that enlightens every man that comes into the world. God expressed, conveyed, and made known to us His Word through Him, which is the love, wisdom, and divine expression of our Creator. Christ was the pen; He was the instrument that God filled with His "Truth". Christ [was] the light on earth ~ Not God on earth. (At least not in literal terms)


    GK

  17. #17
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by GateKeeper View Post
    Since Jesus had a beginning (Begotten by God), it is not plausible that Jesus made the world Himself, or that He was God on earth. We know that God created all things for himself, so I wish to stay true to this thought, and reason these p***ages out, while staying true to scripture.

    GK
    Hi Gatekeeper,

    Do you believe Jesus is/was a liar?

    John 8
    56 Your forefather Abraham was extremely happy at the hope and prospect of seeing My day (My incarnation); and he did see it and was delighted.57 Then the Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?
    58 Jesus replied, I ***ure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.
    59 So they took up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus, by mixing with the crowd, concealed Himself and went out of the temple.


    Jesus clearly told the Pharisees that He existed before Abraham was born. By saying "I AM" He was saying in effect that He is God because that is what God told Moses to call Him, I AM. The Jews understood and knew what He meant because they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy.







    John, "the disciple that Jesus loved" said this about Jesus. Did John also lie?



    John 1

    1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. 2 He was present originally with God.
    3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.


    And Paul, did he lie too?


    Philippians 2

    5 Let this same at***ude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:]

    6 (Paul is speaking of Jesus)Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,


    7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and ]rightful dignity], so as to ***ume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.


    8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!


    And once again Jesus tells John in Revelation chapter 1 who He is.

    10 (John)I was in the Spirit [rapt in His power] on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a great voice like the calling of a ]war trumpet,

    11 Saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. Write promptly what you see (your vision) in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia--to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.


    12 Then I(John) turned to see [whose was] the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,


    13 And in the midst of the lampstands [One] like a Son of Man, clothed with a robe which reached to His feet and with a girdle of gold about His breast.

    14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, [as white] as snow, and His eyes [flashed] like a flame of fire.



    15 His feet glowed like burnished (bright) bronze as it is refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.


    16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and from His mouth there came forth a sharp two-edged sword, and His face was like the sun shining in full power at midday.


    17 When I(John) saw Him, I fell at His feet as if dead. But He(Jesus) laid His right hand on me and said, Do not be afraid! I am the First and the Last,

    18 And the Ever-living One [I am living in the eternity of the eternities]. I died, but see, I am alive forevermore; and I possess the keys of death and Hades (the realm of the dead).


    Think Gatekeeper, when did God ever die? Immanuel means "God with us". His name shall be called Immanuel.



    God is not a man that He should lie. If you believe that Jesus lied about even one thing, then how could you believe anything else that He said?

  18. #18
    GateKeeper
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayso View Post
    Hi Gatekeeper,

    Do you believe Jesus is/was a liar?

    John 8
    56 Your forefather Abraham was extremely happy at the hope and prospect of seeing My day (My incarnation); and he did see it and was delighted.57 Then the Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?
    58 Jesus replied, I ***ure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.
    59 So they took up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus, by mixing with the crowd, concealed Himself and went out of the temple.


    Jesus clearly told the Pharisees that He existed before Abraham was born. By saying "I AM" He was saying in effect that He is God because that is what God told Moses to call Him, I AM. The Jews understood and knew what He meant because they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy.







    John, "the disciple that Jesus loved" said this about Jesus. Did John also lie?



    John 1

    1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. 2 He was present originally with God.
    3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.


    And Paul, did he lie too?


    Philippians 2

    5 Let this same at***ude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:]

    6 (Paul is speaking of Jesus)Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,


    7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and ]rightful dignity], so as to ***ume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.


    8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!


    And once again Jesus tells John in Revelation chapter 1 who He is.

    10 (John)I was in the Spirit [rapt in His power] on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a great voice like the calling of a ]war trumpet,

    11 Saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. Write promptly what you see (your vision) in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia--to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.


    12 Then I(John) turned to see [whose was] the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,


    13 And in the midst of the lampstands [One] like a Son of Man, clothed with a robe which reached to His feet and with a girdle of gold about His breast.

    14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, [as white] as snow, and His eyes [flashed] like a flame of fire.



    15 His feet glowed like burnished (bright) bronze as it is refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.


    16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and from His mouth there came forth a sharp two-edged sword, and His face was like the sun shining in full power at midday.


    17 When I(John) saw Him, I fell at His feet as if dead. But He(Jesus) laid His right hand on me and said, Do not be afraid! I am the First and the Last,

    18 And the Ever-living One [I am living in the eternity of the eternities]. I died, but see, I am alive forevermore; and I possess the keys of death and Hades (the realm of the dead).


    Think Gatekeeper, when did God ever die? Immanuel means "God with us". His name shall be called Immanuel.



    God is not a man that He should lie. If you believe that Jesus lied about even one thing, then how could you believe anything else that He said?
    Did John lie?

    1Jn 4:12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
    1Jn 4:13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
    1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
    1Jn 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
    1Jn 4:16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.


    Scripture CLEARLY tells us that no one has EVER seen God. Jesus was God's Son. This is what He claimed to be, so I'll take Him at His word.

    GK

  19. #19
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by GateKeeper View Post
    Did John lie?

    1Jn 4:12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
    1Jn 4:13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.
    1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
    1Jn 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
    1Jn 4:16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.


    Scripture CLEARLY tells us that no one has EVER seen God. Jesus was God's Son. This is what He claimed to be, so I'll take Him at His word.

    GK
    Sorry friend,

    You are grasping at straws. You couldn't dispute one of the scriptures I gave you and so you list a few verses (out of context) which you believe supports your view. John was clearly speaking of and to mortal men which Jesus isn't.


    The same John that you quote also wrote this in his Gospel of John concerning the things Jesus said and did.

    John 6:45-47

    41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, "I am the bread that came down out of heaven."

    42 They were saying, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, 'I have come down out of heaven'?"



    43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.



    44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

    45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.


    46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.




    47" Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.





    Those who want eternal life must believe Jesus' message. He told us that He was sent/came down from heaven. He told us that He came from the Father. He told us that He is IN the Father and the Father is IN Him. He never ever suggested that He didn't exist from the beginning of time. He never suggested that He was created by the Father. He said that the ONE Who is from God, has seen the Father.

    Colossians 2

    6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,


    7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gra***ude.


    8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

    9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,



    This last verse means just what it implies. Jesus was/is God living in bodily form. The Father, Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Spirit are all ONE living IN one another.

    I have received Christ Jesus the Lord and His Spirit lives in me. But I am not in the Father or in Jesus or in the Holy Spirit because I am a mortal person. Jesus is the ONLY ONE who has ever been IN the Father because He is DEITY.
    Last edited by sayso; 02-07-2009 at 09:21 AM.

  20. #20
    GateKeeper
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayso View Post
    [COLOR=Blue]Sorry friend,

    You are grasping at straws. You couldn't dispute one of the scriptures I gave you and so you list a few verses (out of context) which you believe supports your view. John was clearly speaking of and to mortal men which Jesus isn't.
    Did you read my posts? Grasping as straws? John tells us that no one has ever seen God. Jesus outright claimed to be the son of God (Which I do believe) and NEVER claimed to be God Himself. I believe the fullness of God dwelt in Him, but that fullness was of God's Spirit, or Word ~ Not the totality of His being. This makes sense being that Jesus was conceived by the Spirit. He grew in the spirit/wisdom, and was "filled" with the truth. (The Spirit is truth 1 John 5) Also, Jesus was not immortal, He died as I recall, but was raised from the grave. He is God's son, and our savior. I don't need to add things in order make Him into God Himself, or to fit a particular theology, or doctrine.

    Btw, if you think me here to debate the issue, you are wrong. I simply posted my views so you fine people would know where I stand, and my personal convictions. Your grasping at straws comment leads to believe that you are wanting to argue this matter. I'll give my views, but when argument ensues I will depart from you.

    GK

  21. #21
    sayso
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    Quote Originally Posted by GateKeeper View Post
    Did you read my posts? Grasping as straws? John tells us that no one has ever seen God. Jesus outright claimed to be the son of God (Which I do believe) and NEVER claimed to be God Himself. I believe the fullness of God dwelt in Him, but that fullness was of God's Spirit, or Word ~ Not the totality of His being. This makes sense being that Jesus was conceived by the Spirit. He grew in the spirit/wisdom, and was "filled" with the truth. (The Spirit is truth 1 John 5) Also, Jesus was not immortal, He died as I recall, but was raised from the grave. He is God's son, and our savior. I don't need to add things in order make Him into God Himself, or to fit a particular theology, or doctrine.

    Btw, if you think me here to debate the issue, you are wrong. I simply posted my views so you fine people would know where I stand, and my personal convictions. Your grasping at straws comment leads to believe that you are wanting to argue this matter. I'll give my views, but when argument ensues I will depart from you.

    GK
    Yes I've read that p***age of verses many times. And I explained to you why John wasn't speaking of Jesus when he wrote those verses.

    What you believe is up to you. I simply gave another view of the logos, Is Jesus God. My view is that He is and I gave the proof of Jesus Himself saying He is from the Bible to support my view.

    You then answered back and said that the Bible "CLEARLY" states that your belief is the correct view. I disagree. So it is ok for you to disagree with others but they can't disagree with you?

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayso View Post
    Yes I've read that p***age of verses many times. And I explained to you why John wasn't speaking of Jesus when he wrote those verses.

    What you believe is up to you. I simply gave another view of the logos, Is Jesus God. My view is that He is and I gave the proof of Jesus Himself saying He is from the Bible to support my view.

    You then answered back and said that the Bible "CLEARLY" states that your belief is the correct view. I disagree. So it is ok for you to disagree with others but they can't disagree with you?
    With all due respect, I said scripture CLEARLY tells us that no one has ever seen God, and that Jesus claimed to be God's son, which is what I myself believe. You believe scripture supports your view, while I believe scripture supports my own. This is an age old debate, and will never be resolved. It is simply pointless to argue the matter, as the debate has no end. Now if you believe one must believe Jesus is G-d to be saved, we have another issue to tackle altogether, lol.

    Blessings

    GK

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayso View Post
    Hi Gatekeeper,

    Do you believe Jesus is/was a liar?
    Absolutely not, which is why I take Him for His word. He clearly referred to Himself as God's son, and [that] is who I believe Him to be.

    John 8
    56 Your forefather Abraham was extremely happy at the hope and prospect of seeing My day (My incarnation); and he did see it and was delighted.57 Then the Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?
    58 Jesus replied, I ***ure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.
    59 So they took up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus, by mixing with the crowd, concealed Himself and went out of the temple.


    Jesus clearly told the Pharisees that He existed before Abraham was born. By saying "I AM" He was saying in effect that He is God because that is what God told Moses to call Him, I AM. The Jews understood and knew what He meant because they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy.
    This scripture is about God promising Abe a seed (Issac) through which an everlasting covenant would be made. A promise of things to come (Jesus Christ). Abe rejoiced at this day for He new G-d was faithful, and that the messiah would come from the promise of this everlasting covenant.

    Jesus made no claim of deity, but rather messiah, as in the rest of scripture. He had offended them by suggesting that he was greater than Abraham, and that they were under bondage, and that they did not know God. He implied that they were not the children of Abraham, and that they were not the children of God. Jesus simply called them out as liars.

    Were they trying to stone him for blasphemy? Obviously not, for they (Many) already believed on him. But now they were angered and confused by his accusations, and frustrated by his answers. You will undoubtedly claim that Jesus was quoting Exodus 3:14, where the name of God (according to most Bibles) is revealed as "I AM", but the name of God as revealed in Exodus 3:14, is actually "I WILL BE" according to most Hebrew scholars. (EHYEH ASHER EHYEH, EHYEH)


    John, "the disciple that Jesus loved" said this about Jesus. Did John also lie?



    John 1

    1 IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. 2 He was present originally with God.
    3 All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.
    Actually John said this about the "Word", and then explained how Jesus was the manifestation of that "Word". You have added to the text....


    Philippians 2

    5 Let this same at***ude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:]

    6 (Paul is speaking of Jesus)Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,


    7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and ]rightful dignity], so as to ***ume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.


    8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!

    Jesus possessed the fullness of God, but this doesn't make Him God, but rather a vessel for G-d's "Word".


    And once again Jesus tells John in Revelation chapter 1 who He is.

    10 (John)I was in the Spirit [rapt in His power] on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a great voice like the calling of a ]war trumpet,

    11 Saying, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. Write promptly what you see (your vision) in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia--to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.


    12 Then I(John) turned to see [whose was] the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,


    13 And in the midst of the lampstands [One] like a Son of Man, clothed with a robe which reached to His feet and with a girdle of gold about His breast.

    14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, [as white] as snow, and His eyes [flashed] like a flame of fire.



    15 His feet glowed like burnished (bright) bronze as it is refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.


    16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and from His mouth there came forth a sharp two-edged sword, and His face was like the sun shining in full power at midday.


    17 When I(John) saw Him, I fell at His feet as if dead. But He(Jesus) laid His right hand on me and said, Do not be afraid! I am the First and the Last,

    18 And the Ever-living One [I am living in the eternity of the eternities]. I died, but see, I am alive forevermore; and I possess the keys of death and Hades (the realm of the dead).


    Think Gatekeeper, when did God ever die? Immanuel means "God with us". His name shall be called Immanuel.



    God is not a man that He should lie. If you believe that Jesus lied about even one thing, then how could you believe anything else that He said?
    I understand why you believe what you do, but the reality is that Jesus was who He claimed to be. He claimed to be God's son, and our messiah. Nothing more, and nothing less. He was not God on earth, but He possessed God's Word/Wisdom/Spirit as a part of His being.

    Blessings

    1Jn 4:12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

    GK

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